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Avanti 805's under the wires on WCML (Euston - LIverpool)

Royston Vasey

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It is so depressing that we still have diesel trains running under the wires.
It's not a good thing, but I am far more upset about the sudden proliferation of 5 and 7 car intercity trains on both the West and East Coast.

Fleet orders trimmed back to their bare minimum by short sighted paucity and penny pinching, and built to a miserly Government specification yet somehow delivered at enormous bloated public outlay on awful value contracts.

Electrification and supply upgrade plans cancelled and cut to make savings, leading to the bimode mess, and, with perfect circularity, electrification plans no longer deemed viable because we now have bimodes like 805s.

Power distribution that is apparently insufficient to run the timetable on full electric.

7 car Hitachis replacing 9 and 11 car Pendolinos to Liverpool. Except when they sub in a cosy 5 car.

Perfectly good 9 car 225s cut back to 7 cars for an imperceptible gain in speed. 5 car Azumas running to Leeds and Newcastle.

Service cuts.

I'm depressed and disgusted by the post COVID pre Nationalisation railway, and further depressed about what GBR is going to bring.

Meanwhile SNCF and Eurostar have 160 9 car double deck Avelias on order for France and Belgium (and a few for Italy) to further feed growth in their booming electric high speed railways.
 
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LYuen

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Exactly, some of us in this thread have very good (professional) understanding of traction electric system performance and efficiency and some others just don't!!! The person you are reply to has a massive misunderstanding of some or all of data, maths and/or engineering English.

In many recent traction systems there has been a trend to high voltages for IGBT which has also reduced the apparent SiC advantage has that often had a higher motor voltage assumption included hence they often weren't often apple vs apples comparisons.

350s have 20.Xm vehicles and 730s have 24.Xm vehicles hence a 10car 730 is equivalent to a 12car 350; however the 350s are known for being heavy so a 12 car Cl350 tare is 538 tonnes, 8car 359 tonnes and a 10car 730 is 396 tonnes. The main differences in 12car 350 vs 10 730 has come from mass reduction (142 tonnes) : lighter body shells despite being 4m longer, 4 fewer bogies, 2 fewer cabs, 20 inside frame bogies compared to outside frame and better electrical system design and integration also saving some weight, totalling 142 tonnes. Yes the electrical system is better but saving 26.3% on weight is a huge factor. Better HVAC and auxiliary efficiency has also helped
I cannot claim myself an expert on this matter. In fact, what bother me the most is the lack of information.
The comparison between 350s and 730s you post, such as reduction in weight while maintaining the same capacity, and improvement to other electrical equipment, are excellent context. I highly appreciate this as electricity saving can then be estimated.

I think, there should be case studies on electricity consumption upon new rolling stock introduction. National Rail is running tight on electricity supply all the place. Introducing more electricity efficient EMUs and actively talk about it is an important advertisement for the railway, not only justifying the update, but also promoting future investment.
In fact, analyses are done extensively outside National Rail. The comparison between Chopper, GTO, IGBT and SiC stock are from Japan Railway (mostly JR East). There is also comparison on energy consumption for China high speed trains [1] and the paper was published to Journal of Advanced Transportation, a British publication. Even for London, TfL/Siemens estimated the 2024 stock will have 20% energy efficiency improvement (after adding HVAC) over the stock it is replacing before it is introduced. Unlike UK, electricity supply isn't a bottleneck for both China and Japan. Saving electricity is very much icing on the cake for them. Yet, this matter the most for National Rail but was talked the least.

[1] https://www.proquest.com/docview/2667632536

Also, improved efficiency is a term used to describe the amount of energy lost in the conversion (DC to AC or AC to AC) and not the total amount of energy used. Thus a SiC converter might be 10% more efficient than an IGBT model. Based on the IGBT system being at least 90% efficient, if the SiC system is 10% more efficient than the IGBT, this means that it'll be 92% efficient in converting the energcy from one form to the other.

Is incorrect in the assertion about enabling capacity for an 11th train. Equally an energy consumption comparison between the 8-car class 350 and the 10 car class 730 depends on many more factors than the traction converter technology. The biggest difference will be in train mass and performance specified.
SiC inverter also brings improvement to the weight and size, as well as specific usage such as regenerative braking.
The 10%-20% figure JR East claimed for the E235 account for new inverter-traction system, in car energy management (e.g. LED lighting and enhanced HVAC) and optimised traction profiling through ATO (automatic train operation)
 
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Sorcerer

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It's not a good thing, but I am far more upset about the sudden proliferation of 5 and 7 car intercity trains on both the West and East Coast.
I can understand criticisms of five-coach trains on LNER, but with Avanti the five-coach units are replacing previous units of the same length for a niche route, not a core trunk one, and the seven-coach trains are substituting current services including a stop at Liverpool South Parkway which wouldn't be possible with a longer unit.

7 car Hitachis replacing 9 and 11 car Pendolinos to Liverpool. Except when they sub in a cosy 5 car.
The Everos haven't replaced the Pendolinos to Liverpool. They are substituting them services as always planned. Only a handful of hours throughout the day do not have a second hourly Liverpool service, and the 807s almost match a nine-coach 390 in seat count.
 

Royston Vasey

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I can understand criticisms of five-coach trains on LNER, but with Avanti the five-coach units are replacing previous units of the same length for a niche route, not a core trunk one, and the seven-coach trains are substituting current services including a stop at Liverpool South Parkway which wouldn't be possible with a longer unit.


The Everos haven't replaced the Pendolinos to Liverpool. They are substituting them services as always planned. Only a handful of hours throughout the day do not have a second hourly Liverpool service, and the 807s almost match a nine-coach 390 in seat count.
Fair point on what the Everos have replaced, although latterly the Voyagers ran doubled up to Edinburgh via Birmingham as 10 coach (albeit entirely under the wires) and ran to Chester as 5s/10s and onto Holyhead as 5s (10s?). They didn't run to Liverpool to my knowledge, at least in recent memory. When new I think they did.

I appreciate that the Pendolinos (usually 11 car) that now do the Edinburghs had to come from somewhere, but it's a shame that the Everos were ordered as 5s and 7s rather than 7s and 9s or even 10s. Hauled Pendolinos once ran to Holyhead as 1+9s.

5s with autocouplers give a lot of flexibility, I get that, and running a 5 is better than cancelling a train, I get that argument as well, but 5s shouldn't be used as get out of jail free cards like on GWR, and if soon enough the timetable is filled with 5 cars underusing paths like on LNER to blindly boost frequency with a finite fleet, then I'm not in favour of that either.

I'd much rather a long train fills a path carrying some fresh air for some of its journey than an overcrowded throughout short train like on XC.

I can't ever imagine DB, SNCF or Euroatar ordering 5 car ICEs and TGVs (DB have withdrawn their 5 car Class 415 ICE-Ts). This is not the action of a serious railway and lacks ambition to grow. Fleets seem to be always ordered short in number and short in length these days, only for fleets to be severely stretched as soon as they are introduced. See also Class 745, Class 197, Class 80x, Class 810, even Class 345.
 

Sorcerer

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Fair point on what the Everos have replaced, although latterly the Voyagers ran doubled up to Edinburgh via Birmingham as 10 coach (albeit entirely under the wires) and ran to Chester as 5s/10s and onto Holyhead as 5s (10s?). They didn't run to Liverpool to my knowledge, at least in recent memory. When new I think they did.

I appreciate that the Pendolinos (usually 11 car) that now do the Edinburghs had to come from somewhere, but it's a shame that the Everos were ordered as 5s and 7s rather than 7s and 9s or even 10s. Hauled Pendolinos once ran to Holyhead as 1+9s.
The Super Voyagers ran doubled to Scotland via Birmingham, yes, but the plans were always to have all services north of Preston being Pendolino only, and a nine coach unit isn't much worse than doubled up Super Voyagers (492 vs 469 seats, with 607 on eleven-coach Pendolinos). I don't think the Holyhead services would ever properly justify a Pendolino-length train again though.

They didn't usually run to Liverpool although the 807s weren't intended to replace the 221s anyway (only the 805s were meant to), they were more to just allow extra Liverpool trains. The thing to remember with the Evero fleet is that it was never intended to be the workhorse like the LNER Azumas. They were just meant to fill niche roles the actual workhorse (the Pendolino) couldn't fulfil.
 

33021

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No, it assumes a level of electrically hauled freight. Not all.
It will also assume all planned freight paths are running and a risk based assessment on electrical load based on worst case temperature and any other factor scenario and then units and locos in the feeder section.
NR will clearly take a view on risk that is cautious as they won’t want tripping with the worst case combination.
 
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They didn't run to Liverpool to my knowledge, at least in recent memory. When new I think they did.
I think they did run Voyagers to Blackpool semi-regularly. I believe this was also to do with power supply issues in that area. But, to be fair, Blackpool wiring was a lot more to with Northern rather than the parliamentary intercity trains.
I can't ever imagine DB, SNCF or Euroatar ordering 5 car ICEs and TGVs (DB have withdrawn their 5 car Class 415 ICE-Ts). This is not the action of a serious railway and lacks ambition to grow. Fleets seem to be always ordered short in number and short in length these days, only for fleets to be severely stretched as soon as they are introduced. See also Class 745, Class 197, Class 80x, Class 810, even Class 345.
To me it looks a lot like the approach being to procure as many seats to just about satisfy current traffic demands so that trains are mostly full as much of the time as possible. I presume this is to do with leasing costs pushing down the number of carriages TOCs want to deal with along with just a general disregard for idea of providing for future demand. The groupthink of "no one travels post-covid" is at least clouding the idea that demand will ever go up.

I will say though, class 745s I think have a lot more space than the mark 3 sets they replaced and carry a decent amount of air a lot of the time. Shame that they just didn't buy enough of them, I wonder if that was to do with stabling and maintenance space as well though, despite the fact new sidings were built in Norwich for both the Stadler sets
 

hwl

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Even for London, TfL/Siemens estimated the 2024 stock will have 20% energy efficiency improvement (after adding HVAC) over the stock it is replacing before it is introduced. Unlike UK, electricity supply isn't a bottleneck for both China and Japan. Saving electricity is very much icing on the cake for them. Yet, this matter the most for National Rail but was talked the least.
20% on what basis? Per train or per passenger?

In the case of 1973 vs 2024 stock (130 is an expert on this) there are a lot of factors in the energy efficiency improvement.
  • Changing from electropneumatic tap changer to SiC
  • Changing from DC to 3 phase AC traction motors (8 pole PM)
  • Significantly increase in installed motor power (+140%) - this is key to make regen work effectively in practice and get faster acceleration (journey time reduction and more efficient overall)
  • Significant increase in max traction motor voltage (300V to 590V) so lower resistive losses
  • Changing from No regenerative braking to regenerative braking **this is huge***
  • Just 2.5% weight saving but 30.5% increase in passengers per train.
  • Journey time improvements result in lower total auxiliary and hotel loads per journey as these are effectively a function of time so reducing time by X% reduces these by X%
  • better acceleration resulting in lower average power per unit distance in motion (higher power use initially when moving away from a station but you accelerate for shorter period of time and spend more time in the cruise (you can't coast with PM motors they always have to be powered) with much lower average power consumption and braking (which is now mostly regen) phases.
The majority of improvement cannot be attributed to better traction electronics.

OEMs never want to make a comparison between current state of the art IGBT and SIC/PM, they prefer to benchmark against older products so instead of a single or dual factor comparion where the benefit is clearer but smaller they can claim benefits of 20+ things improving!
 

The Planner

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It will also assume all planned freight paths are running and a risk based assessment on electrical load based on worst case temperature and any other factor scenario and then units and locos in the feeder section.
NR will clearly take a view on risk that is cautious as they won’t want tripping with the worst case combination.
Well yes, but a 66 hauled Intermodal isn't going to make a difference.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The 132/25kV transformers are located at Scottish Powers 132kV substation on Middlewich Road by the Bentley car factory
Is that the first structure you see on the edge of Crewe coming in from the Chester direction?
It's where the OHL wiring starts near Crewe Steel Works box.
 

frodshamfella

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Probably because the 805s were intended to replace the 221s, of which 299 seats is better than the previous 246. But against the 807s and 390s that normally operate on the route they fall short, and I wouldn't be surprised if Avanti would've preferred it to be a Pendolino since that is what the Liverpool via Trent Valley service would usually be pathed for, not to mention running diesel under wires isn't really economical even if it can't really be avoided in this case.

I always think its about time Crewe to Chester ( at Least ) and Holyhead should be a priority to electrify , rather than dragging a diesel under wires all the way from Euston to Crewe. While you are doing it add electric from Chester to Runcorn and Manchester too.
 

Statto

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It's not a good thing, but I am far more upset about the sudden proliferation of 5 and 7 car intercity trains on both the West and East Coast.

Fleet orders trimmed back to their bare minimum by short sighted paucity and penny pinching, and built to a miserly Government specification yet somehow delivered at enormous bloated public outlay on awful value contracts.

Electrification and supply upgrade plans cancelled and cut to make savings, leading to the bimode mess, and, with perfect circularity, electrification plans no longer deemed viable because we now have bimodes like 805s.

Power distribution that is apparently insufficient to run the timetable on full electric.

7 car Hitachis replacing 9 and 11 car Pendolinos to Liverpool. Except when they sub in a cosy 5 car.

Perfectly good 9 car 225s cut back to 7 cars for an imperceptible gain in speed. 5 car Azumas running to Leeds and Newcastle.

Service cuts.

I'm depressed and disgusted by the post COVID pre Nationalisation railway, and further depressed about what GBR is going to bring.

Meanwhile SNCF and Eurostar have 160 9 car double deck Avelias on order for France and Belgium (and a few for Italy) to further feed growth in their booming electric high speed railways.
The reason for 5/7 car sets is the platforms at Liverpool South Parkway are too short to handle a 9 car pendolino, which is why AWC avoided stopping there, & they had to extend P4 to accommodate the pendolinos when AWC couldn't use Lime Street due to the blockade a few years ago.
 

Royston Vasey

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The reason for 5/7 car sets is the platforms at Liverpool South Parkway are too short to handle a 9 car pendolino, which is why AWC avoided stopping there, & they had to extend P4 to accommodate the pendolinos when AWC couldn't use Lime Street due to the blockade a few years ago.
Then either extend the platforms, fit SDO to 390s, order 9 car with SDO, or don't serve it. It's a huge procurement decision for one short platform, isn't it?

I completely understand ordering 5 cars, but why 7 cars?
 
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Is that the first structure you see on the edge of Crewe coming in from the Chester direction?
It's where the OHL wiring starts near Crewe Steel Works box.
I think it's a bit further west of OLE limit, Middlewich Rd is the final road before the open countryside. See https://openinframap.org/#15.64/53.103979/-2.480299
You can't really see the substation from the train because of the trees but you might notice quite a few pylons converging on the site.
 

dk1

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I always think its about time Crewe to Chester ( at Least ) and Holyhead should be a priority to electrify , rather than dragging a diesel under wires all the way from Euston to Crewe.
But still a massive improvement on being on diesel the entire way as was the case with the 221 fleet that went before. Great Western operates infinitely more bimodal trains lugging tanks full of diesel than Avanti does.
 

Sorcerer

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Then either extend the platforms, fit SDO to 390s, order 9 car with SDO, or don't serve it. It's a huge procurement decision for one short platform, isn't it?

I completely understand ordering 5 cars, but why 7 cars?
Seven coaches is a perfectly adequate length. It's a compromise between stopping at Liverpool South Parkway and being able to match a nine-coach Pendolino in seat capacity. If it were nine coaches you'd be funneling passengers at the rear of the train through four coaches rather than two, and extending the main platforms would be difficult due to a bridge on one end and Allerton Junction on the other.

My question was the assumption that there was a choice between bi-mode and straight electric. Would the latter not also raise the same power supply issues?
It would indeed, which is why Lumo would need to either bank on Network Rail delivering the power supply upgrades necessary or would have to resort to a bi-mode unit. I wouldn't be surprised if the 222s remained beyond being a simple stop gap measure, though perhaps that plus running an 805 under the wires even daily might be enough an incentive to upgrade the infrastructure so a Pendolino can run the service instead.
 

Royston Vasey

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Seven coaches is a perfectly adequate length. It's a compromise between stopping at Liverpool South Parkway and being able to match a nine-coach Pendolino in seat capacity. If it were nine coaches you'd be funneling passengers at the rear of the train through four coaches rather than two, and extending the main platforms would be difficult due to a bridge on one end and Allerton Junction on the other.
Yes, but it's only one station to deal with that issue. If we had 9 cars (say 2.5 First, 6.5 Standard) Assuming coach A and B would be off the platform southbound, pick up only, that isn't the end of the world (coach A has fewer seats and is usually the quietest on Avanti trains anyway), and northbound, drop off only, it would be a couple of First Class cars, half of one being the kitchen anyway, which wouldn't be dropping off many people anyway.

I feel like parity in capacity with the shorter Pendolinos (which do end up really packed when diagrammed injudiciously) wasn't very ambitious and doesn't account for any growth. I'd rather have 9s that match the capacity of the 390/1s and just deal with platform lengths at one new calling point.
 
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tsyxa

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Last Monday's 1F15 09:05 London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street (805010) got diverted via Warrington and Earlestown due to it having Generator Unit faults, preventing it running on diesel as booked.

It's return working ran as booked via Runcorn.
How come this required it to divert when the route via Runcorn is electrified? Is this purely supply issues?
 

voyagerdude220

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How come this required it to divert when the route via Runcorn is electrified? Is this purely supply issues?
I'm guessing so, but I don't know why it was only diverted on it's way into Liverpool and not on it's journey back towards London.
 
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Interesting because I didn't think Weaver Jnc to Lime Street was an area of particular power constraint, it's supplied (albeit with RC/BT) by Weaver Jnc ATFS and also has the original Speke FS available as a backup just for that line.
 

Elecman

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Interesting because I didn't think Weaver Jnc to Lime Street was an area of particular power constraint, it's supplied (albeit with RC/BT) by Weaver Jnc ATFS and also has the original Speke FS available as a backup just for that line.
Speke Feeder is to be disconnected this year

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Is that the first structure you see on the edge of Crewe coming in from the Chester direction?
It's where the OHL wiring starts near Crewe Steel Works box.
Nope it’s much further out than Steelworks box
 
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Speke Feeder is to be disconnected this year
Thanks, noted. Will it be retained as a TSC and with a neutral section? Seems interesting that they wouldn't want to keep the added redundancy for N-2 of Weaver Jnc but I guess things would run better as a big ring from Parkside.
 

Bald Rick

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I completely understand ordering 5 cars, but why 7 cars?

Because they are of similar capacity as a 9 car Pendolino, and used heavily on the Birmingham route,which has some lightly loaded trainsat some points in the day.

Of the 49 Avanti services today from Euston to Birmingham (all of which have run so far):

16 went to Crewe or beyond, and all were Pendolinos.

Of the remaining 33 services,

15 were Hitachi units, of which 12 were 807s.

9/23 servcies that terminate at New Street were 807s.



There were also 20 and 22 coach pendolino formations, the latter of which is just pulling into Coventry :lol: :lol: ;)
 

frodshamfella

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Yes, but it's only one station to deal with that issue. If we had 9 cars (say 2.5 First, 6.5 Standard) Assuming coach A and B would be off the platform southbound, pick up only, that isn't the end of the world (coach A has fewer seats and is usually the quietest on Avanti trains anyway), and northbound, drop off only, it would be a couple of First Class cars, half of one being the kitchen anyway, which wouldn't be dropping off many people anyway.

I feel like parity in capacity with the shorter Pendolinos (which do end up really packed when diagrammed injudiciously) wasn't very ambitious and doesn't account for any growth. I'd rather have 9s that match the capacity of the 390/1s and just deal with platform lengths at one new calling point.
The seven car trains dont seem as adequate as a 9 pendolino, but it does offer the South Parkway option and 1 per day each way for Hartford so these are pluses. Some of the Pendolino services are 11 cars at least. I think the Liverpool route will grow and need more capacity sooner rather than later.
 

QueensCurve

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The seven car trains dont seem as adequate as a 9 pendolino, but it does offer the South Parkway option and 1 per day each way for Hartford so these are pluses. Some of the Pendolino services are 11 cars at least. I think the Liverpool route will grow and need more capacity sooner rather than later.
Apologies if this is off-topic. I am sure the Pendolini should be able to stop at Hartford. 11 car loco-hauled formations used to back in the day.. Perhaps a part of the platform needs resurfacing.
 

The Planner

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Apologies if this is off-topic. I am sure the Pendolini should be able to stop at Hartford. 11 car loco-hauled formations used to back in the day.. Perhaps a part of the platform needs resurfacing.
Too short for an 11 car at 266m. The platforms are 243 and 249m. Nine car would be fine.
 

frodshamfella

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Too short for an 11 car at 266m. The platforms are 243 and 249m. Nine car would be fine.
for Hartford, yes. Its only once a day at the moment. Think in BR days it was a bit more regular, certainly Hartford is a busier station these days.
 

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