Automatic Ticket Barriers at Euston

[Trainfan344]

Apologies if this has come up elsewhere, did a quick forum search and couldn't find anything.

Anyway, I had an email from virgin trains this morning

At Virgin Trains fair play and customer security are important to us, so we are introducing automatic ticket gates (ATGs) at platforms 1-3 and more ticket vending machines at London Euston station.

why only Platform 1-3?

 

[Bletchleyite]

why only Platform 1-3?

1-3 being done first, then 12-15. 8-11 already done. 16-18 not being done, I expect because those platforms will be closed once the HS2 build starts.

I must admit I think it would have been better to do all of them by running a barrier line under the departure board, though. Doing each platform group will not reduce the staffing requirement over manual checks (though it will provide barriers for LM as well, who presently do not do manual checks), and moving away from the manual checks will reduce the quality of the checks (e.g. nothing will stop MKC season ticket holders going through the barrier to board a pick-up only train, nor catch those who have done that in the other direction on arrival, nor will Advance holders be prevented from boarding the wrong train).

 

[jopsuk]

they won't do a single line as there's too much in the way of retail space beyond there- at a station like Euston you don't want to have that "platform side"

 

[Wolfie]

they won't do a single line as there's too much in the way of retail space beyond there- at a station like Euston you don't want to have that "platform side"

Absolutely correct.

1-3 being done first, then 12-15. 8-11 already done. 16-18 not being done, I expect because those platforms will be closed once the HS2 build starts.

I must admit I think it would have been better to do all of them by running a barrier line under the departure board, though. Doing each platform group will not reduce the staffing requirement over manual checks (though it will provide barriers for LM as well, who presently do not do manual checks), and moving away from the manual checks will reduce the quality of the checks (e.g. nothing will stop MKC season ticket holders going through the barrier to board a pick-up only train, nor catch those who have done that in the other direction on arrival, nor will Advance holders be prevented from boarding the wrong train).

You do realise that there is a direct access tunnel from the tube to platforms 8-11 at Euston I assume. Your proposed solution would either involve passengers using those platforms having to pass through two barrier lines if they do not use that tunnel, the tunnel being closed - which given how swamped the escalators from the tube station to the main concourse already are would be disasterous, or that tunnel itself becoming a loophole should the extant 8-11 barriers be removed.

 

[Simon11]

Doing each platform group will not reduce the staffing requirement over manual checks (though it will provide barriers for LM as well, who presently do not do manual checks), and moving away from the manual checks will reduce the quality of the checks (e.g. nothing will stop MKC season ticket holders going through the barrier to board a pick-up only train, nor catch those who have done that in the other direction on arrival, nor will Advance holders be prevented from boarding the wrong train).

You believe that the quality of manual checks are better than at a gateline? Checks by manual staff are very poor and you can see why when they only have a split second to view a ticket. Couple to this you are examining hundred of tickets per hour, so you won't be able to pick up much.

 

[mattdickinson]

Absolutely correct.



You do realise that there is a direct access tunnel from the tube to platforms 8-11 at Euston I assume. Your proposed solution would either involve passengers using those platforms having to pass through two barrier lines if they do not use that tunnel, the tunnel being closed - which given how swamped the escalators from the tube station to the main concourse already are would be disasterous, or that tunnel itself becoming a loophole should the extant 8-11 barriers be removed.

The solution would be to move the tube barrier so that the subway entrance was behind the barriers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You believe that the quality of manual checks are better than at a gateline? Checks by manual staff are very poor and you can see why when they only have a split second to view a ticket. Couple to this you are examining hundred of tickets per hour, so you won't be able to pick up much.

The manual checks certainly do identify at least some (a) Advances on the wrong train, and (b) MKC commuters using trains they are not entitled to use. The barriers will not do either of these unless a very advanced system is installed, which has not yet been installed at any station in the UK yet if it even exists. And even so it may not be possible, e.g. if a LM and VT are boarding next to each other.

All a gateline will identify is that the ticket is valid for travel from Euston and that it isn't an off-peak being used in the peak, they can do little more. Most likely a 1-6 Travelcard will let you through any of them, for example.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The queues are horrendous at the 8-11 barrier line, they can't cope with peak-time loadings, I don't see how barrier lines elsewhere would be any better. It'll take 15 minutes for everyone off an 11-coach Pendolino to get out of the station.

It'd be much better to have one really long barrier line, but it won't happen because of teh layout of Euston. It isn't just the retail that would be behind the barrier line; the waiting room, toilets and left luggage all would be too. You'd also have to seal off the side gate and side door from 16-18.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The queues are horrendous at the 8-11 barrier line, they can't cope with peak-time loadings, I don't see how barrier lines elsewhere would be any better. It'll take 15 minutes for everyone off an 11-coach Pendolino to get out of the station.

I don't find the 8-11 barriers in their present wider form much of an issue. People do pass through them at only slightly less than the rate they can go up the ramp, and not fully clogging the ramp does mean it is just about possible to travel *from* Euston against that flow - previously getting down the ramp was near impossible.

The one big thing I would change there is to have the staff standing by one of the wide gates at the end and adding a clear ASSISTANCE HERE sign. It isn't obvious at present and that causes blockages. It would also help if they would replace the gates with compressed air powered ones that move quicker - I often get caught by the slowness of the current ones.

It'd be much better to have one really long barrier line, but it won't happen because of teh layout of Euston. It isn't just the retail that would be behind the barrier line; the waiting room, toilets and left luggage all would be too. You'd also have to seal off the side gate and side door from 16-18.

The waiting room could be moved, and as the coffee area is being redeveloped at present a separate access to the toilets could be provided. The Sloe Bar has already closed, presumably so that area can be widened. Moving the waiting room and left luggage would not be difficult, neither is particularly big, and in any case might there be a security/personal safety of the waiting room being accessible to passengers only?

There is the rest of the retail, but as more is added outside the station and will be on the new mezzanine I don't think making a few takeaway outlets only accessible to passengers would be a massive problem. It'd only make it like the old arrangement at New St used to be.

I suspect the very narrow access to/from 16-18 might be another reason that is not being done. When they closed the side gate for security during the Olympics, it was a nightmare, and it was reopened as soon as the Games finished.

 

[ag51ruk]

All a gateline will identify is that the ticket is valid for travel from Euston and that it isn't an off-peak being used in the peak, they can do little more. Most likely a 1-6 Travelcard will let you through any of them, for example.

Why would the barriers on platforms 1-3 be programmed to accept zone-only Travelcards? A single barrier line for the whole station would need to, which is I guess another good reason for seperate groups of barriers for different platforms. 16-18 are the only ones that regularly see use by both VT and LM and won't be gated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because if they weren't it would cause havoc if an LM ended up there. LM use 12 daily by the way.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Barriers are also coming to Manchester Piccadilly, but only to Platforms 4 - 7, which is odd. If you are going to do it, you might as well do the whole lot.

 

[Kite159]

Barriers are also coming to Manchester Piccadilly, but only to Platforms 6 / 7 I believe, which is odd.

And are they going to block off the entrance to the stairs for the bridge for those platforms?

Would be a pain if you needed to get to P13+P14 and needed to join the queue to exit via the barriers before going back round on another platform to join the bridge link

 

[Elecman]

Isn't there a lift to the footbridge from those platforms?

 

[323235]

why only platforms 4-7 at Piccadilly? what about 3? That just seems completely ridiculous not to barrier them all but then revenue protection is a farce anyway.

 

[Andrew1395]

Euston barrier line can add 5 minutes to your journey if three am peak arrivals occur (which is fairly common). A nightmare for those exiting and those moving toward a departure. The best solution would be to widen the ramp (back to its original design) by removing the WH smiths and M&S simply food. You could then get a proper flow to and from the wood. Barriers at all platforms will be the only way to make contact less card payments work. LM uses 12-18 for WFJ peak time starters. Barriers would also control the peak time afternoon restrictions easily avoided with the many departures that go off of non barriered platform s

 

[Starmill]

I used to complain regularly whenever I travelled out of Euston and they announced the platform 7 minutes before departure and still thought they could do the full revenue check. It causes a stampede and a huge queue in which anyone less able to run and push ended up right at the back - and panic that people will miss the train, especially given many people get seats booked into coaches B and C, which are a very long way away indeed on an 11 car. They are now better at not doing it if there are fewer than 15 minutes or so. I have altered my plans by travelling more in First Class (although will be cutting back on this again) and on later trains (at least 2040) to reduce the seat scrum.

 

[Mojo]

The solution would be to move the tube barrier so that the subway entrance was behind the barriers.

I can't quite picture what you are suggesting?

 

[mattdickinson]

I can't quite picture what you are suggesting?

You would turn the exit barriers from the tube 90 degrees so that you would turn left within the paid area to platforms 8-11 or turn right to go through the gates for the main concourse.

 

[Mojo]

You would turn the exit barriers from the tube 90 degrees so that you would turn left within the paid area to platforms 8-11 or turn right to go through the gates for the main concourse.

Wouldn't that allow customers to access the NR section without a ticket, and also NR customers to enter LU without a ticket? Not a problem at other locations I know, but would possibly open the Tocs to more fare evasion than they would like.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

And are they going to block off the entrance to the stairs for the bridge for those platforms?

Would be a pain if you needed to get to P13+P14 and needed to join the queue to exit via the barriers before going back round on another platform to join the bridge link

It seems not. Nothing in the planning application about any alterations at the footbridge end. So the hardcore fare dodgers will just walk round.

why only platforms 4-7 at Piccadilly? what about 3? That just seems completely ridiculous not to barrier them all but then revenue protection is a farce anyway.

Because Virgin are paying for it, and those are their normal platforms.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Euston barrier line can add 5 minutes to your journey if three am peak arrivals occur (which is fairly common).

Yep, although it is a regular enough occurrence that they release the barriers on 8-11 because the queues are so long it's become a crush hazard on the platforms. Totally defeats the point of having the barriers.

Although it is better than when London Midland do a revenue block with RPIs, given they think 2-3 RPIs is plenty to do a full and standing 12-car train. The quickest it's taken me to get out when they do that is 10 minutes, and that's with just the one peak 12-car arrival.

London Midland regularly use 6 and 7 as well as 12-15 and 16-18 for departures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Euston barrier line can add 5 minutes to your journey if three am peak arrivals occur (which is fairly common). A nightmare for those exiting and those moving toward a departure. The best solution would be to widen the ramp (back to its original design) by removing the WH smiths and M&S simply food. You could then get a proper flow to and from the wood. Barriers at all platforms will be the only way to make contact less card payments work. LM uses 12-18 for WFJ peak time starters. Barriers would also control the peak time afternoon restrictions easily avoided with the many departures that go off of non barriered platform s

The blockage on the ramp has nothing to do with the shops, it's caused by the presence of the access to the Tube taking up half the width and causing conflicting pedestrian movements. If that was removed the ramp would be wider, but a dangerous blockage would be caused at the concourse Tube access (as it is on the occasions it is closed for maintenance etc). Otherwise I'm sure LUL would be enthusiastic to get rid of it, as it also causes conflicting movements in the Tube ticket hall.

12-18 are used by various LM services throughout the peaks, not just WFJ stoppers. Use of 1-3 is very rare, but can happen in disruption I think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yep, although it is a regular enough occurrence that they release the barriers on 8-11 because the queues are so long it's become a crush hazard on the platforms. Totally defeats the point of having the barriers.

At least they do do that. fGW, for example, simply accept the crush and will never release the barriers.

Although it is better than when London Midland do a revenue block with RPIs, given they think 2-3 RPIs is plenty to do a full and standing 12-car train. The quickest it's taken me to get out when they do that is 10 minutes, and that's with just the one peak 12-car arrival.

I've never seen this, I guess it is very rare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I used to complain regularly whenever I travelled out of Euston and they announced the platform 7 minutes before departure and still thought they could do the full revenue check. It causes a stampede and a huge queue in which anyone less able to run and push ended up right at the back - and panic that people will miss the train, especially given many people get seats booked into coaches B and C, which are a very long way away indeed on an 11 car. They are now better at not doing it if there are fewer than 15 minutes or so. I have altered my plans by travelling more in First Class (although will be cutting back on this again) and on later trains (at least 2040) to reduce the seat scrum.

The Euston scrum is dangerous and is poor customer service. A better way to operate would be to show the platform as soon as the inbound service has arrived and unloaded, or even to show it all the time, and to lock the doors while the train is cleaned.

 

[nuneatonmark]

The 1646 to Crewe always goes off No 2. Many of the Crewe services go off 17.

Maybe they should encourage wider use of realtimetrains so more people know which platform their train is going from before the departure boards!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1646 to Crewe always goes off No 2. Many of the Crewe services go off 17.

Maybe they should encourage wider use of realtimetrains so more people know which platform their train is going from before the departure boards!

Some of the staff *really* don't like people using RTT, though short of petitioning Network Rail not to give them the data there isn't a lot they can do! Other staff have been interested as to where they can get it from!

I expect when the barriers go in they might, like Paddington, set them exit-only when a train is not boarding (you could still, if RTT seems to be giving useful info[1], wait at the barrier itself, though). Logic might be to interface them with the PIS, but I've not known that done elsewhere.

[1] Of late Euston platform allocations seem to have gone a bit random again, so if using RTT it is important to keep watching the arrivals.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hear barriers were already installed on 1-3 - anyone know where they are located or have any photos?

 

[matt]

I hear barriers were already installed on 1-3 - anyone know where they are located or have any photos?

On the platform side of the ramp where it opens up. They have been installed at least a month. The last 2 times I have arrived on an LM fast Crewe service into platform 2.

 

[Wolfie]

The solution would be to move the tube barrier so that the subway entrance was behind the barriers.

Which would mean that individuals entering the tube station from the subway would have no access to tube TVMs... epic fail which TfL will never agree to (unless someone finds lots of cash for more TVMs and any associated staffing costs)!

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the platform side of the ramp where it opens up. They have been installed at least a month. The last 2 times I have arrived on an LM fast Crewe service into platform 2.

As in at the bottom? That would explain why I hadn't seen them I assume those for 1 now have to walk round and the steps down towards 1 are closed?

 

[miami]

As in at the bottom? That would explain why I hadn't seen them I assume those for 1 now have to walk round and the steps down towards 1 are closed?

I used the ones on platform 2/3 last week, post slope. I believe platform 1 has it's own barriers too, not sure if they are in use but I assume so.