Automated systems?

[sharkfin]

Good evening
I am doing some research on grades of automation (GoA0 to GoA4) and need some good examples of each from around the world. When I have looked there seems to be quite a few examples of GoA2 but limited umbers of the other systems.

Does anyone have some good examples they could direct me to and what do people think about automation in the rail industry?

Many Thannks

 

[AlexNL]

To give some examples:

GoA 0 = trams running on streets, with no train protection systems
GoA 1 = main line rail in the UK, with systems to stop trains in case of emergency (DSD, AWS/TPWS, ATP)
GoA 2 = Thameslink's ETCS over ATO, or what happens on f.e. the Victoria Line of LU
GoA 3 = Docklands Light Railway
GoA 4 = Copenhagen Metro, Paris Metro lines 1 and 14

 

[edwin_m]

These are mostly GoA4:

Paris Metro line 4 was built new to be automated with no on-board staff presence. Line 1 has since been converted and they may have done another line by now.

Barcelona Metro lines 9 and 10 (? - the one from the airport) is similarly staffless, with the bonus of some interesting tunneling techniques such as putting the lines one above the other in one big tube.

Dubai Metro is fully automated in operation but I think has a member of staff on each train.

Riyadh Metro will be fully automated with no on-board staff.

I'm not going to get into whether it's a good thing or not - that question tends to send the forum off on one...

 

[DanNCL]

Nuremburg U Bahn's U3 is a GoA4 line iirc.

Paris Metro line 4 was built new to be automated with no on-board staff presence. Line 1 has since been converted and they may have done another line by now.

Paris line 4 is manually driven; line 14 is the line that was built new as a fully automated line.

 

[AlexNL]

Paris Metro Line 4 is in the process of being converted to GoA 4. This includes the installation of platform doors, as seen on line 1 and line 14. Full UTO mode driving is currently expected to commence in 2022.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks for the correction - I'd seen line 4 mentioned somewhere but must have got my wires crossed.

 

[JonathanP]

When the Thameslink ATO was discussed here a lot of people were unhappy about it. This is kind of ridiculous when you consider that we have been trusting computers with safety critical railway decision for decades, and on a modern railway you have a computerised signalling system and a computerised traction control system; so bringing in automation is solely filling the small human gap between a signal whose aspect is decided by a computer and the power controller which is once again merely an input to a computer. However, it goes to show that whatever the reality many people are uneasy about the concept of a fully automated high speed 'robot train'.

From an engineering perspective developing automation is a lot simpler than signalling or ATP systems, because you always still have an ATP system checking what the automation is doing, so the safety requirements are not so high.

I am only familiar with the supply side of the industry, but I think there is an awareness that railways are a very conservative industry and there is not likely to be any large scale rollout of automation on mainline tracks anytime soon. Suppliers are keen to demonstrate the possibilities of automation, but in the end they just want to make products people want to buy. It matters more what the operators want.

 

[edwin_m]

In an engineering sense automation of the train isn't particularly difficult, at least for metros and comparable main line operations like Thameslink and Crossrail. The hard bit is managing the passengers, both in everyday situations like door closing and particularly when something goes wrong. Even one person on the train can be valuable if there is a need to evacuate on a viaduct or tunnel.

 

[MarkyT]

General purpose railways in long rural stretches between towns are more likely to be affected by natural events such as trees falling, landslips, wildlife and trespasser incursion, etc. While I believe ATO as a driver assistance tool is highly likely to be employed ever more extensively as ETCS allows it on the busiest segments, I expect a human overseer in the cab will remain for the foreseeable future to spot and report such hazards, which are difficult to pick up using sensors and computers, and also to manage the train diagnostics and deal with out of course events in a timely manner.

 

[AM9]

To give some examples:

GoA 0 = trams running on streets, with no train protection systems
GoA 1 = main line rail in the UK, with systems to stop trains in case of emergency (DSD, AWS/TPWS, ATP)
GoA 2 = Thameslink's ETCS over ATO, or what happens on f.e. the Victoria Line of LU
GoA 3 = Docklands Light Railway
GoA 4 = Copenhagen Metro, Paris Metro lines 1 and 14

Whilst in Copenhagen last week waiting for a metro to the airport, an ECS train went through with three staff on, one of them at the helm, 'DLR style'. I suppose that it was training for when manual driving is necessary.

 

[TRAX]

Also, all metro lines in Paris have GoA2 except 1 and 14 (GoA4) and 3b/7b/10 (GoA1).

 

[sharkfin]

The replies have been brilliant thanks!
Can anyone shed a light on why Paris metro system has Goa1 for 3b,7b and 10 yet is operating at Goa4 for the others mentioned ?
Can anyone highlight other European countries that operate on Goa1 ?
What about the rest of the world for Goa2 and Gao3?
Its interesting to see the polarizing views on Goa4...…some countries embracing the technology whilst other countries seem reluctant. What's peoples views on this do you believe it depends on the culture of the country, the politics or is it a cost/deliverability issue ?
Again thank you for the great replies

 

[AlexNL]

The replies have been brilliant thanks!
Can anyone shed a light on why Paris metro system has Goa1 for 3b,7b and 10 yet is operating at Goa4 for the others mentioned ?

3b, 7b and 10 are short lines which see less traffic than the other lines. Running semi or fully automatic would be quite expensive and gain little.

Can anyone highlight other European countries that operate on Goa1 ?

Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Berlin, Antwerp, Brussels.

What about the rest of the world for Goa2 and Gao3?

To name a few:

GoA 2: Vienna, Glasgow, Brussels (in the future)
GoA 3: Budapest, Barcelona

Its interesting to see the polarizing views on Goa4...…some countries embracing the technology whilst other countries seem reluctant. What's peoples views on this do you believe it depends on the culture of the country, the politics or is it a cost/deliverability issue ?
Again thank you for the great replies

In a greenfield situation, such as when the Copenhagen Metro started, it's relatively easy to roll out GoA 4. As you're building a completely new metro system in a city which hasn't had one before, there is no legacy infrastructure to deal with (think: trains, existing tunnels, platforms already built, technology already operational). Furthermore, there will be no unions or staff protesting over potential job losses. This makes rolling out something completely new relatively easy.

While there might be some armchair critics who are afraid of trusting computers with a safety-critical job, these are usually a minority and their voices will go silent once the system has been operational for a while.

In a brownfield situation (existing metro, staffed, existing rolling stock) you will have to get the unions on board (after all, GoA 4 means no more drivers), you will have to adapt platforms and rolling stock, you might have to upgrade the signalling system, and so on. At the same time, the metro line has to remain operational as the traveling public depends on it. Unless there are serious capacity gains from going to full unattended operation, in many cases it's simply not worth the hassle. In that case, rolling out GoA 2 will also increase capacity (see Thameslink) while being less disruptive.

 

[sharkfin]

Thank you for the great reply.

 

[androom8]

GoA 3: Budapest, Barcelona

Budapest more precisely:

M1 GoA1
M2 GoA2 but capable GoA4
M3 GoA2
M4 GoA4

 

[AlexNL]

In a few years time, the Hamburg S-Bahn can be added to the list, as an agreement has been signed to roll out ATO over ETCS. Initially on a trial basis, if this turns out to be a success the entire network will be converted to ATO running. Drivers will remain on the trains, but will only be there to monitor the machine.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...mburg-s-bahn-automation-agreement-signed.html

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Sydney's Northwest metro will be Goa4.

The Pakenham/Cranbourne and Sunbury line in Melbourne will be Goa2 through the Metro Tunnel in 2025 when it opens and all HCMT trains enter service.
It might be between Dandenong and Watergardens but nothing concrete has been released.