ATW Services

[Jez]

Just wondering whether the Swansea-Pembroke Dock services will revert back to single cars (i.e 153s) during the winter timetable. This year they were strengthened to 2 cars (albeit mainly pacers) for the entire Summer, not just high summer as in previous years (i.e. Saturdays, Bank Holidays, summer school holidays). This makes me wonder whether they will remain 2 cars indefinitely especially as the 153s are now booked onto the Cardiff City Line and Cardiff Bay Line and seem to be coping with demand there.

From December with the WAG express being brought forward to 17xx the replacement 18xx service to Chester will start at Llanelli (and be the 1710 Swanline also) and be a 175. This could mean there is no need for the 0436 Swansea-Shrewsbury Heart of Wales service to now be a 2 car if this will no longer run through to being the diagram that does the peak time Swanline?

 

[merlodlliw]

Just wondering whether the Swansea-Pembroke Dock services will revert back to single cars (i.e 153s) during the winter timetable. This year they were strengthened to 2 cars (albeit mainly pacers) for the entire Summer, not just high summer as in previous years (i.e. Saturdays, Bank Holidays, summer school holidays). This makes me wonder whether they will remain 2 cars indefinitely especially as the 153s are now booked onto the Cardiff City Line and Cardiff Bay Line and seem to be coping with demand there.

From December with the WAG express being brought forward to 17xx the replacement 18xx service to Chester will start at Llanelli (and be the 1710 Swanline also) and be a 175. This could mean there is no need for the 0436 Swansea-Shrewsbury Heart of Wales service to now be a 2 car if this will no longer run through to being the diagram that does the peak time Swanline?

The service to Llanelli will start from Holyhead around 0435 in the morning as now & is not always a 175 three car(at present on its Cardiff run), sometimes it is a 158 on Mondays.
I don't understand your HOWL comment, The WAG on its new timing will fill with standard Pax from Cardiff at 1716 Current busiest service at 1720 to North Wales , however in my opinion 1st Class will still be little used as there appears no demand for it in either direction.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The service to Llanelli will start from Holyhead around 0435 in the morning as now & is not always a 175 three car(at present on its Cardiff run), sometimes it is a 158 on Mondays.
I don't understand your HOWL comment, The WAG on its new timing will fill with standard Pax from Cardiff at 1716 Current busiest service at 1720 to North Wales , however in my opinion 1st Class will still be little used as there appears no demand for it in either direction.

0435 is only 3 car because of the commuter traffic into Hereford from Ludlow/Leominster not because its packed with north to south traffic.

 

[Jez]

My Heart of Wales comment is because currently the 0436 (or whatever time it Departs now, 0434???) from Swansea-Shrewbury via the Heart of Wales and then return working from Sherewbury-Swansea-Newport is run by a 2 car 150. This then goes on to form the 14xx Newport-Swansea-Llanelli and then 16xx Llanelli-Swansea-Cardiff (1710 swanline departure). So if the 0436 is no longer involved in the evening swanline there may be no need for it to be 2 car. I think 0436 is prob the lightest Heart of Wales diagram although it can get busy at the northern end, but it no more needs to be 2 car than the other 2 diagrams which are booked 153.

I guess it will all depend what happens with the Pembroke Dock diagrams as the first up Heart of Wales does Pembroke Dock the day before and then overnight fishguard. When this all used to be a 153 and did the 1710 Swanline it was often overcrowded.

 

[PHILIPE]

The 04 36 from Swansea HOW requires 2 Cars from Craven Arms to Shrewsbury and has done ever since the calling patterns on the Marches route a couple of years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just wondering whether the Swansea-Pembroke Dock services will revert back to single cars (i.e 153s) during the winter timetable. This year they were strengthened to 2 cars (albeit mainly pacers) for the entire Summer, not just high summer as in previous years (i.e. Saturdays, Bank Holidays, summer school holidays). This makes me wonder whether they will remain 2 cars indefinitely especially as the 153s are now booked onto the Cardiff City Line and Cardiff Bay Line and seem to be coping with demand there.

From December with the WAG express being brought forward to 17xx the replacement 18xx service to Chester will start at Llanelli (and be the 1710 Swanline also) and be a 175. This could mean there is no need for the 0436 Swansea-Shrewsbury Heart of Wales service to now be a 2 car if this will no longer run through to being the diagram that does the peak time Swanline?

I wouldn't preempt anything from the Decenber yet as it is probably still at the Stakeholders Consultation stage.

 

[merlodlliw]

My Heart of Wales comment is because currently the 0436 (or whatever time it Departs now, 0434???) from Swansea-Shrewbury via the Heart of Wales and then return working from Sherewbury-Swansea-Newport is run by a 2 car 150. This then goes on to form the 14xx Newport-Swansea-Llanelli and then 16xx Llanelli-Swansea-Cardiff (1710 swanline departure). So if the 0436 is no longer involved in the evening swanline there may be no need for it to be 2 car. I think 0436 is prob the lightest Heart of Wales diagram although it can get busy at the northern end, but it no more needs to be 2 car than the other 2 diagrams which are booked 153.

I guess it will all depend what happens with the Pembroke Dock diagrams as the first up Heart of Wales does Pembroke Dock the day before and then overnight fishguard. When this all used to be a 153 and did the 1710 Swanline it was often overcrowded.

Thanks for the comment, as for 150s when I picked up the wife in July at Shrewsbury, I noted the stunned look on pax faces who had just detained from the ex Manchester 175 then told to walk to the bay for the regular 150 all stations to Cardiff which departed around 2305.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

0435 is only 3 car because of the commuter traffic into Hereford from Ludlow/Leominster not because its packed with north to south traffic.

Agree.From December it goes to Llanelli, I presume extended to pick up the villagers at Gowerton

 

[SprinterMan]

Agree.From December it goes to Llanelli, I presume extended to pick up the villagers at Gowerton

It is still showing as a Cardiff only train for me.

http://opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y90496/2013-12-10

Adam

 

[PHILIPE]

Of course it does. Changes are from December and Timetable details are not all in system yet even though Open Trains Times shews a calender which is just the current Timetable rolled forward. The date for final closure isn't until some time in September, so anything you might find, I'd take with a pinch of salt at the moment
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just wondering whether the Swansea-Pembroke Dock services will revert back to single cars (i.e 153s) during the winter timetable. This year they were strengthened to 2 cars (albeit mainly pacers) for the entire Summer, not just high summer as in previous years (i.e. Saturdays, Bank Holidays, summer school holidays). This makes me wonder whether they will remain 2 cars indefinitely especially as the 153s are now booked onto the Cardiff City Line and Cardiff Bay Line and seem to be coping with demand there.

From December with the WAG express being brought forward to 17xx the replacement 18xx service to Chester will start at Llanelli (and be the 1710 Swanline also) and be a 175. This could mean there is no need for the 0436 Swansea-Shrewsbury Heart of Wales service to now be a 2 car if this will no longer run through to being the diagram that does the peak time Swanline?

Understand 10 40 from Holyhead will go through to Llanelli as the Swanline (14 57 ex Newport)

 

[Jez]

I noticed both yesterday and today the 1710 Swanline was a single 153. I am guessing it may have coped yesterday being a bank holiday and less people in work, but today must have been fun with a single 153.

Im guessing the 0436 was a 153 both days?

Does anyone know if the pembroke docks being 2 car is a permanent thing or just for summer?

 

[SprinterMan]

Of course it does. Changes are from December and Timetable details are not all in system yet even though Open Trains Times shews a calender which is just the current Timetable rolled forward. The date for final closure isn't until some time in September, so anything you might find, I'd take with a pinch of salt at the moment
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Understand 10 40 from Holyhead will go through to Llanelli as the Swanline (14 57 ex Newport)

Correct, 1040 ex-HHD is running to Llanelli from December:
http://opentraintimes.com/schedule/Y90503/2013-12-10

Hence I am skeptical of the 0425 running through.

Adam

 

[headshot119]

Of course it does. Changes are from December and Timetable details are not all in system yet even though Open Trains Times shews a calender which is just the current Timetable rolled forward. The date for final closure isn't until some time in September, so anything you might find, I'd take with a pinch of salt at the moment
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Understand 10 40 from Holyhead will go through to Llanelli as the Swanline (14 57 ex Newport)

It's not the current timetable rolled forward though, as it already shows some of the (proposed) changes......

 

[PHILIPE]

It would have been loaded at some stage and updated as time goes by.

 

[merlodlliw]

I have received an amendment to Pocket timetable one,table 75 consultation timetable December.

1V51 ex Holyhead 0425 runs to Cardiff.

!V57 ex Holyhead 1040 runs to Llanelli.

So OTT have it correct, but it remains only consultation, for reasons beyond my control I am unable to pass the full ATW consultation December timetables to you,
These are live documents & change when errors are spotted.
Bob

some confusion over 1W89 (GERALD)Shown in table 131 as 1716bhx, but in table 75 shown as running BH, quiry set in. This is ATWs busiest North Wales service current 1721 ex Cardiff, a definite error.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Does anyone know if the pembroke docks being 2 car is a permanent thing or just for summer?

I can't find it now, but I seem to remember they claimed 2-car was for good this time.

 

[SprinterMan]

I have heard a couple of rumours about potential future Arriva services and was wondering how likely you guys think they are:

1. Arriva are currently trying to source a second catering crew so they can run a Manchester to Cardiff breakfast service and Cardiff to Manchester dinner service using the spare loco-hauled set. The set will overnight at Chester, running to and from Manchester ECS via the mid-cheshire line so it can use the terminal platforms at Piccadilly.

2. Once the Northern hub project is finished, current Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly services will be diverted to run to Stalybridge via Manchester Victoria.

3. Once the Northern hub project is finished, current Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly services will be extended through to Manchester Airport.

4. Once the Northern hub project is finished, the new TransPennine Express York to Manchester Airport stopper will be diverted to run to Chester, running fast between Warrington Bank Quay and Chester, to give half-hourly trains between Manchester and Chester via Warrington.

5. The WAG express will soon cease running as the government are no longer keen on funding it, especially if the upcoming timetable change does not increase passenger numbers in 1st class. If this does happen, the stock will likely go to Chiltern.

I know not all of these are new, and not all of them are likely, but these are all things I have heard recently from sources other than this forum so I was wondering which ones do you consider to be more likely than others. 1 seems more like a pipe dream than anything else, and 2 & 3 cannot both happen (obviously :P ).

Adam

 

[Rhydgaled]

1. Arriva are currently trying to source a second catering crew so they can run a Manchester to Cardiff breakfast service and Cardiff to Manchester dinner service using the spare loco-hauled set. The set will overnight at Chester, running to and from Manchester ECS via the mid-cheshire line so it can use the terminal platforms at Piccadilly.

Would certainly be good to see that, but I can't see them asking for 100% availability from their mrk3 fleet. So, unless they have a third rake to go with their 3rd loco and DVT, I think that suggestion's a non-starter.

5. The WAG express will soon cease running as the government are no longer keen on funding it, especially if the upcoming timetable change does not increase passenger numbers in 1st class. If this does happen, the stock will likely go to Chiltern.

I hope Gerald isn't scrapped, but I wouldn't put it past them. I wouldn't mind if they drop 1st class, in fact that would probably be a good idea and I wouldn't be at all supprised if that, at least, happens.

 

[jones_bangor]

I
5. The WAG express will soon cease running as the government are no longer keen on funding it, especially if the upcoming timetable change does not increase passenger numbers in 1st class. If this does happen, the stock will likely go to Chiltern.

It's quite possible that 1st class will go, but I don't think WG will scrap the "Express" concept....

 

[PHILIPE]

I think this is nothing more than a rumour - too far-fetched. ATW will never use the additional WAG resources. Any suggestion would never come from them as they will never run anything unless somebody else pays.

 

[anthony263]

The Welsh government are carrying out a review on Gerald and the Cardiff -North Wales air service. Fair enough especially if journey times on the north services are further reduced by increases in speed.

I think Holyhead - Cardiff in 4 hours 30 minutes would be ok, I think it is currently 4 hours 45 minutes on the fastest non Gerald service.

The increase in speeds along with quick turn-arounds at Cardiff Central will save ATW 1 unit which they can deploy elsewhere

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Welsh government are carrying out a review on Gerald and the Cardiff -North Wales air service. Fair enough especially if journey times on the north services are further reduced by increases in speed.

I think Holyhead - Cardiff in 4 hours 30 minutes would be ok, I think it is currently 4 hours 45 minutes on the fastest non Gerald service.

The increase in speeds along with quick turn-arounds at Cardiff Central will save ATW 1 unit which they can deploy elsewhere

Whether these line speed increases can happen without the flexibility of the Wrexham to Saltney redouble I doubt.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Welsh government are carrying out a review on Gerald and the Cardiff -North Wales air service.

Really? Have you a link with any information? I hope they scrap the air service, whether or not they keep Gerald. If the air service goes, then I won't mind so much if Gerald is consigned to history.

Going back to the Manchester suggestion, if there is any truth in it (which I doubt) then maybe it is a proposal ATW have for using the stock if Gerald is canceled, rather than sending it to Chiltern (where the Gerald stock would be different (no power doors, livery, no diesel generator on DVTs etc.)).

 

[anthony263]

Seems Gerald is visiting Blaenau Festiniog tommorow on a guaging/proving run 5Z40 (1108 ex Holyhead) according to a post on Wnxx.

Dont know whether or not it is true but worth keeping a look out for if you are in the area

 

[Jez]

I cant see a Cardiff-Manchester loco-hauled service.

It would be good though - calling at just Newport, Abergavenny, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

Todays 1400 Swansea-Manchester Piccadilly Service, 2 car 175 as booked, was terminated short at Cardiff and replaced by a 3 car 175 for the onward journey to Manchester. This was announced on the screens when I was waiting for the train at Port Talbot Parkway (1418 from Port Talbot) saying please change at Cardiff, this train will then form the 1521 Holyhead. I wonder why they didnt just use the 3 car 175 they had at Cardiff for the Holyhead and run the 2 car through to Manchester as planned, they are both booked 2 car, so whichever the 3 car went onto it would be as broad as its long surely? Nice of them to inform passengers on the screens tho esp saying this set would be the 1521 Holyhead. The guard just announced the train would terminate at Cardiff and to listen for announcements if continuing onwards for stations to Manchester. There was announcements over the tannoy telling passengers the train at the front of Platform 2 was the 1455 to Manchester whilst the terminating train at the rear of Platform 2 was not for public use.

I noticed today the Bridgend -Vale of Glamorgan services are now running through to Ebbw Vale!? Platform 2 was being used for the Ebbw Vale trains today as I dont think Platform 0 can use trains which are in service or terminating, just ones starting at Cardiff. There were 2 153s used to strenghen Ebbw Vale Services so if one was on the bay and 2 on City Line cant have been many left for elsewhere.

 

[anthony263]

There is engineering work on the Cardiff Valley line snetwork this weekend. Vale of glamorgan trains normally run to Merthyr or Aberdare.

You are correct about platform 0 although this is due to change when Network rail alter the signalling and track layout at Cardiff Central meaning trains can run into Platform 0 in service for example the Swanline services or the few trains which run to Ebbw Vale from Maesteg/Bridgend

 

[Jez]

It would be useful for terminating Swanline services to terminate at platform 0 as they would be out of the way there and keep platforms 1 and 2 clear for the London and Portsmouth trains etc.

 

[anthony263]

I think also platforms 1 & 2 are being made bi-directional along with platform 4 to allow certain services to avoid having to shunt out of the station before reversing back in.

One service springs to mind and that is the Cardiff - Nottingham service where trains arrive at 27-30 minutes past each hour and depart at 45 minutes past however I have seen on a good few occasions where trains have been delayed waiting for a clear path to shunt out of platforms 3 or 4 and have ended up getting into platform 2 a minute or so before departure back to Nottingham.

The result is a delayed departure although trains do stand at Gloucester for a good 5 minutes or so.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I cant see a Cardiff-Manchester loco-hauled service.

It would be good though - calling at just Newport, Abergavenny, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Crewe, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

Todays 1400 Swansea-Manchester Piccadilly Service, 2 car 175 as booked, was terminated short at Cardiff and replaced by a 3 car 175 for the onward journey to Manchester. This was announced on the screens when I was waiting for the train at Port Talbot Parkway (1418 from Port Talbot) saying please change at Cardiff, this train will then form the 1521 Holyhead. I wonder why they didnt just use the 3 car 175 they had at Cardiff for the Holyhead and run the 2 car through to Manchester as planned, they are both booked 2 car, so whichever the 3 car went onto it would be as broad as its long surely? Nice of them to inform passengers on the screens tho esp saying this set would be the 1521 Holyhead. The guard just announced the train would terminate at Cardiff and to listen for announcements if continuing onwards for stations to Manchester. There was announcements over the tannoy telling passengers the train at the front of Platform 2 was the 1455 to Manchester whilst the terminating train at the rear of Platform 2 was not for public use.

I noticed today the Bridgend -Vale of Glamorgan services are now running through to Ebbw Vale!? Platform 2 was being used for the Ebbw Vale trains today as I dont think Platform 0 can use trains which are in service or terminating, just ones starting at Cardiff. There were 2 153s used to strenghen Ebbw Vale Services so if one was on the bay and 2 on City Line cant have been many left for elsewhere.

The Manchester trains are always busier than the Holyhead ones plus the set you mention forms the 1830 off Piccadilly which can be very busy

 

[Hynod]

What is Gerald?

 

[anthony263]

The name of the loco hauled service which works the 05:32 Holyhead - Cardiff Central and 1821 return express service on weekdays which is sponsored by the Welsh Government.

 

[Welshman]

When first introduced, the train was named after "Gerald of Wales" [Gerallt Gymro].

He was a 12/13c archdeacon of Brecon and also an intrepid traveller through Wales, chronicling its life and times.

Hence the name for a North-South service.