ATW Overnight Outposts

[craigybagel]

By the way, I looked at CIS (Tiger) last night and 2145 Llandudno attached a unit at Chester making it 4 Cars.

And according to Genius, tonight it'll be just the 150 all the way through from Llandudno, with no attachment at Chester. Given the WAG failed at Wrexham this morning and had to be rescued by the North Wales LHCS set there may be a bit of disruption with the diagrams however.

 

[berneyarms]

Figuring out the booked diagrams is the challenging bit given the various rolling stock issues that ATW are experiencing!

 

[mervyn72]

Ok. So 2G15 runs to sidings then I guess. Shame RTT doesn't shows moves to Machynlleth depot...

 

[berneyarms]

Trying to draw the dots on Saturday now....

Are there more sets in service for longer on Saturdays than on a normal weekday - there must be, in order to facilitate the Barmouth set continuing east rather than returning to the depot?

Is the 07:30 ex-Aberystwyth/06:45 ex-Barmouth the only 4 pce set of the early (05:30-08:30) eastward workings along the mainline?

Does the 05:30 ex-Aberystwyth get strengthened and if so how?

 

[mervyn72]

As I worked it out, on a standard day:
5D03 used to deposit a 158 in platform 12 at Crewe (before continuing to Shrewsbury). That 158 then became 5J44 to platform 7, where it joined with the 158 ex Shrewsbury to form the 0640 to Shrewsbury where it became a triple 158 from there to Birmingham.

5J44 does not appear in the Winter timetable.

The third 158 could therefore commence in Shrewsbury as part of 5K40 off Abbey Foregate CS, or come from Aberystwyth / Machynlleth as part of 1G07.

Or it could do something different on different days according to maintenance requirements and engineering possessions.

However, I'm pleased to say my 158 diagrams now balance, on paper if not in daily use!
4 Shrewsbury
1 Cardiff
1 Carmarthen
4 Chester
2 Crewe
1 Holyhead
6 Machynlleth
2 Pwllheli

They even balance by platform / siding at Chester and Carmarthen. Awesome.

I await correction!

What do you have as the 6 MCN Starters as I only have 5 which includes the short barmouth extra

 

[PHILIPE]

As I worked it out, on a standard day:
5D03 used to deposit a 158 in platform 12 at Crewe (before continuing to Shrewsbury). That 158 then became 5J44 to platform 7, where it joined with the 158 ex Shrewsbury to form the 0640 to Shrewsbury where it became a triple 158 from there to Birmingham.

5J44 does not appear in the Winter timetable.

The third 158 could therefore commence in Shrewsbury as part of 5K40 off Abbey Foregate CS, or come from Aberystwyth / Machynlleth as part of 1G07.

Or it could do something different on different days according to maintenance requirements and engineering possessions.

However, I'm pleased to say my 158 diagrams now balance, on paper if not in daily use!
4 Shrewsbury
1 Cardiff
1 Carmarthen
4 Chester
2 Crewe
1 Holyhead
6 Machynlleth
2 Pwllheli

They even balance by platform / siding at Chester and Carmarthen. Awesome.

I await correction!

Correction.
3 at Crewe and 5 at Machynlleth.

 

[berneyarms]

What do you have as the 6 MCN Starters as I only have 5 which includes the short barmouth extra

He’s assuming that the 17:42 ex-Pwllheli terminates at Machynlleth, rather than attaching to the 19:30 ex-Aberystwyth, and that the 05:30 ex-Aberystwyth is booked as a 4-car when in fact it’s 2 as per Philippe.

The removal of some of the ECS workings from RTT does create some confusion when trying to figure out the links.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

He’s assuming that the 17:42 ex-Pwllheli terminates at Machynlleth, rather than attaching to the 19:30 ex-Aberystwyth, and that the 05:30 ex-Aberystwyth is booked as a 4-car when in fact it’s 2 as per Philippe.

The removal of some of the ECS workings from RTT does create some confusion when trying to figure out the links.

Yes, correct. I was assuming that for the 0640 ex Crewe double unit / 0733 Shrewsbury triple unit, one unit now commenced from Machynlleth instead of Crewe. Similarly I assumed that the evening Chester ECS movements had changed - as RTT has 1D44 terminating in Platform 4 with no obvious departure (5D44 having disappeared) but with 1G76 passing through the same platform.

But I bow to better insider knowledge.

My interest was actually in what they do with all those 158's which results in it not being possible to provide a complete hourly service on the Cambrian, rather than the exact start-to-finish diagrams including ECS moves to depot - that was the sideline to determining what is required to fulfil all the public workings.

 

[PHILIPE]

When this thread started we were still in the previous Timetable and many of my observations were based on that, so currently, all the ECS shunts seem to be in order. By using Track Diagrams and No of carriages from Tiger CIS data, this now seems to be the current position together with changes involving 158s which took place:-

Amend, please to show 2 at Crewe and 6 at Machynlleth overnight. To achieve this:-

1D44 2053 arrival at Chester from Manchester Picc attaches to 1G76 1921 Holyhead to Birmingham Intl finishing at Shrewsbury instead of attachment to 2301 Chester to Crewe (2146 ex Llandudno).
2G75 1742 ex Pwllheli stays at Machynlleth instead of attaching to Shrewsbury and enables 0530 ex Aberystwyth to Birmingham Intl to be 4 Cars attaching 2 instead of 4 at Shrewsbury off 0640 off Crewe which would be only the unit ex Shrewsbury.
5D03 is booked Platform 12 at Crewe, leaving no 158 in Platform 7. It regularly uses platform 7 but this, I suspect, is due to 5V31 ex Chester to form 1V31 Crewe to Milford Haven which is booked from 12 regularly arriving early and shoving 5D03 across to 7.

I've still to check out Friday nights as the staring requirements for Saturdays differ.

 

[berneyarms]

Ok so the “missing ECS” moves aren’t “missing” after all in the new timetable.

So back to redraft the redraft of my set diagrams!

The ECS move at Chester into the Llandudno-Holyhead is still in RTT on Friday nights incidentally.

But as pointed out earlier, two units end up in Holyhead instead.

I’ll be interested to know if all six Machynlleth sets stay out on Saturday?

 

[PHILIPE]

Ok so the “missing ECS” moves aren’t “missing” after all in the new timetable.

So back to redraft the redraft of my set diagrams!

The ECS move at Chester into the Llandudno-Holyhead is still in RTT on Friday nights incidentally.

But as pointed out earlier, two units end up in Holyhead instead.

I’ll be interested to know if all six Machynlleth sets stay out on Saturday?

I think the "Barmouth" one stays out all day Saturday.

Journey Planners appear to be incorrect as the morning Barmouth and the 1742 ex Pwllheli show through journeys without changing at Machynlleth. If you look at trains on RTT ATW add a type of "footnote" on some routes and at some locations showing next and last working. The Cambrian trains have these notes and both are shown to attach at Machynlleth.
Last night, I was tracking 1G75 and 2G75 and both arrived on opposite platform faces at Dovey Jn at about the same train. However, they left in the wrong order, iG75 left first and 2G75 followed it to Machynlleth and arrived in the same platform but arrival was just after 1G75 had left. Any through passengers on 2G75 would have had to change at Dovey Jn

 

[berneyarms]

OK, based on the discussion this morning, I've got the following now:

Monday-Thursday:
Start & End:
Machynlleth 6
Pwllheli 2
Chester 4
Holyhead 1
Crewe CS 2
Shrewsbury 4
Cardiff 1
Carmarthen 1

Fridays:
Start (as above)

End:
Machynlleth 6
Pwllheli 2
Chester 3
Holyhead 2
Crewe CS 3
Shrewsbury 3
Cardiff 1
Carmarthen 1

Saturday:
Start (as above)

End:
Machynlleth 6
Pwllheli 2
Chester 2
Holyhead 1
Crewe CS 3
Shrewsbury 3
Cardiff 2
Carmarthen 1
Manchester Piccadilly 1

Going to move onto Sunday now which I suspect will be a bit more of a challenge!

 

[mervyn72]

Staying with 158's, does anybody know the exact diagram numbers and the first working of each? I presume they start MN being their allocated depot.

 

[PHILIPE]

Staying with 158's, does anybody know the exact diagram numbers and the first working of each? I presume they start MN being their allocated depot.

I doubt you'll get a reply to the question regarding diagram numbers. The diagrams cycle round so that they all visit Machynlleth.

 

[PHILIPE]

OK, based on the discussion this morning, I've got the following now:

Monday-Thursday:
Start & End:
Machynlleth 6
Pwllheli 2
Chester 4
Holyhead 1
Crewe CS 2
Shrewsbury 4
Cardiff 1
Carmarthen 1

Fridays:
Start (as above)

End:
Machynlleth 6
Pwllheli 2
Chester 3
Holyhead 2
Crewe CS 3
Shrewsbury 3
Cardiff 1
Carmarthen 1

Saturday:
Start (as above)

End:
Machynlleth 6
Pwllheli 2


Chester 2
Holyhead 1
Crewe CS 3
Shrewsbury 3
Cardiff 2
Carmarthen 1
Manchester Piccadilly 1

Going to move onto Sunday now which I suspect will be a bit more of a challenge!

Friday into Saturday should be 2 at Chester and 4 at Shrewsbury.

There is the one that attaches 1G76 at Chester finishing at Shrewsbury. The Chester starters are 03+49 Llandudno Jn and 0422 to Birmingham. The starters at Shrewsbury are 0522 to BHM International, 0613 Maesteg, 0544 Crewe & 0625 Aber.
The 3 Crewe starters are + for 0630 Manchester to Milford Haven and x2 + for 0633 Shrewsbury to Birmingham Intl.

 

[Gareth Marston]

My interest was actually in what they do with all those 158's which results in it not being possible to provide a complete hourly service on the Cambrian, rather than the exact start-to-finish diagrams including ECS moves to depot - that was the sideline to determining what is required to fulfil all the public workings.

The basic answer is that 2 units are in the North wales coast to Manchester circuit and 3 do diagrams in South Wales..

 

[berneyarms]

Friday into Saturday should be 2 at Chester and 4 at Shrewsbury.

There is the one that attaches 1G76 at Chester finishing at Shrewsbury. The Chester starters are 03+49 Llandudno Jn and 0422 to Birmingham. The starters at Shrewsbury are 0522 to BHM International, 0613 Maesteg, 0544 Crewe & 0625 Aber.
The 3 Crewe starters are + for 0630 Manchester to Milford Haven and x2 + for 0633 Shrewsbury to Birmingham Intl.

Yes, of course you're right - apologies - I made that many changes to the diagrams this morning to get them fixed up, I forgot to adjust the Chester and Shrewsbury overall numbers. Thanks!

So onto Sunday, where again I've a number of questions as the diagrams become much less obvious to work out....

* Are there several double sets on the Cambrian mainline starting from Machynlleth?
* Do the two Pwllheli sets join with the 15:30 ex-Aberystwyth at Machynlleth to form a 6 pce set?
* What does the Holyhead start with?
* Do all three sets that are at Crewe work on Sundays or do some stay put?
* Assuming the Carmarthen set does the boat train to/from Fishguard, what does it work after it gets to Canton?
* Do the 2 sets at Canton on Saturday night work together on the 12:05 to Milford Haven?

I've figured out the 3 Shrewsbury starters and the 2 Chester starters too (I think)!

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes, of course you're right - apologies - I made that many changes to the diagrams this morning to get them fixed up, I forgot to adjust the Chester and Shrewsbury overall numbers. Thanks!

So onto Sunday, where again I've a number of questions as the diagrams become much less obvious to work out....

* Are there several double sets on the Cambrian mainline starting from Machynlleth?
* Do the two Pwllheli sets join with the 15:30 ex-Aberystwyth at Machynlleth to form a 6 pce set?
* What does the Holyhead start with?
* Do all three sets that are at Crewe work on Sundays or do some stay put?
* Assuming the Carmarthen set does the boat train to/from Fishguard, what does it work after it gets to Canton?
* Do the 2 sets at Canton on Saturday night work together on the 12:05 to Milford Haven?

I've figured out the 3 Shrewsbury starters and the 2 Chester starters too (I think)!

I;m afraid I can't confirm Sundays in detail yet as I've still got to go through them in detail so please leave it with me. I'll try and answer your queries briefly and come back later. They are nothing like weekdays so far as pattern is concerned..

There are some double sets on the Cambrian
2 Pwllheli sets come to Machynlleth but only one goes forward on the 1530 ex Aber
The 1331 Chester to Birmingham goes forward with 2 ex CTR and attaches another at SHR. This is then the balance of the 1607 back formed 1 Aber and 2 to Pwllheli
Holyhead starts as portion of 1430 to Manchester Picc
Do nothing at Crewe !!! - 1 0925 Crewe to Holyhead and portion of 1430 Holyhead to Manchester, 1 on 1155 Crewe to Chester and works onl shuttles until 1627 to Holyhead (150 attd) and 1 on 1105 Crewe to Chester and forms portion of 1331 to Birmingham Intl.
There is no set at Carmarthen, after back from Fishguard Sat attaches to 2047 CMN to CDF. The Sunday boats is a 175. This 158 will be the third one at Canton and which form:- 0918 to Manchester attaching the one stabled for 1330 back to CDF, 1 on 1034 to Manchester Picc attached to 150 and 1 on 1205 CDF to MFH.

These are for the last Timetable but it will take me time to go right through them.

 

[berneyarms]

Ah that gives me something to go on.....

Yeah it’ll be tricky alright as tomorrow is not a standard day!

 

[PHILIPE]

Ah that gives me something to go on.....

Yeah it’ll be tricky alright as tomorrow is not a standard day!

I'd select a different date in the New Year if you can find one with little Engineering Work. They are nothing like weekdays going up and down between Holyhead, Birmingham Intl and Cambrian with a couple in the South,

 

[berneyarms]

That has been my approach on RTT all along

 

[mervyn72]

Am I right that the 158's starting at Canton and Carmarthen just keep swapping each weeknight or have I missed the south/north switch.

 

[berneyarms]

Am I right that the 158's starting at Canton and Carmarthen just keep swapping each weeknight or have I missed the south/north switch.

Correct - the North/South switch happens on Sunday.

 

[PHILIPE]

Am I right that the 158's starting at Canton and Carmarthen just keep swapping each weeknight or have I missed the south/north switch.

You have missed it. Post #26

 

[PHILIPE]

Yes, of course you're right - apologies - I made that many changes to the diagrams this morning to get them fixed up, I forgot to adjust the Chester and Shrewsbury overall numbers. Thanks!

So onto Sunday, where again I've a number of questions as the diagrams become much less obvious to work out....


* Do the two Pwllheli sets join with the 15:30 ex-Aberystwyth at Machynlleth to form a 6 pce set?

I've figured out the 3 Shrewsbury starters and the 2 Chester starters too (I think)!

I've looked at Sundays bot not fully yet, but I think that 1 unit stays at Pwllheli and RTT & CIS support this. A couple of months ago
Network Rail banned double sets from working in and out of Pwllheli as a problem with ERTMS and reception surfaced, so it appears the Timetable and Diagrams now encompass this in the new Timetable. Don't as me re the technical details though as I'm just a layman. Hopefully will be remedied in time but Network don't hurry themselves at times. Find the 1607 from Birmingham Intnl which was 6 Cars kicks a set off at Shrewsbury.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I've looked at Sundays bot not fully yet, but I think that 1 unit stays at Pwllheli and RTT & CIS support this. A couple of months ago
Network Rail banned double sets from working in and out of Pwllheli as a problem with ERTMS and reception surfaced, so it appears the Timetable and Diagrams now encompass this in the new Timetable. Don't as me re the technical details though as I'm just a layman. Hopefully will be remedied in time but Network don't hurry themselves at times. Find the 1607 from Birmingham Intnl which was 6 Cars kicks a set off at Shrewsbury.

Movement Authority for ETCS is transmitted over the national GSM R Network and theirs essentially a mobile phone not spot about 40-60 meters from the buffer stops at Pwllheli meaning 4 car 158's cant get a signal in the front cab and cant run to Pwllheli. These advantages of the digital railway are not made public but rural UK which is the bulk of the area is full of these not spots.

 

[mervyn72]

So, I think I've worked out the 158's and 153's but the 150's are tricky any help with what happens to units that go into and out of Canton throughout the day would be good. If there are 5 overnight at RHY, what do they start with?

 

[allaction]

Two side points, if I may?

How many of the outposts have train washing facilities? I’ve just seen a filthy 150 in Tenby...

And are they marginally upgrading the overnight facilities in Carmarthen? When I was there a few weeks ago, I noticed that there was a freshly painted white line on the edge of what would be regarded as Platform 3, which isn’t used for passenger trains, and substantial, yet temporary, lighting had been attached all along the metal fence that separates that platform from Platform 2 in order to provide some lighting.

 

[PHILIPE]

Two side points, if I may?

How many of the outposts have train washing facilities? I’ve just seen a filthy 150 in Tenby...

And are they marginally upgrading the overnight facilities in Carmarthen? When I was there a few weeks ago, I noticed that there was a freshly painted white line on the edge of what would be regarded as Platform 3, which isn’t used for passenger trains, and substantial, yet temporary, lighting had been attached all along the metal fence that separates that platform from Platform 2 in order to provide some lighting.

Only Main Maintenance Deports tend to have washing facilities.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The basic answer is that 2 units are in the North wales coast to Manchester circuit and 3 do diagrams in South Wales..

Once I studied the 'diagrams' that I created from OTT data I realised that there were many potential ways of providing the promised but not actually delivered hourly service on the Cambrian (sounds familiar from the rail industry: Norton Bridge bypass, no extra trains, Loughor Viaduct, no extra trains, Wrexham re-doubling not doubled and no extra trains!). As someone (possibly Philipe) posted on a related thread, if it was required, the units could be found. Principally I hadn't realised that the Shrewsbury to Birmingham International services were mostly double units.

OT but I am tired of hearing 'there are no spare diesel units'. Here and now today, that may be correct but just how long does it take to advertise, contract, build and commission new units? A lot less time than I have been hearing the tired old excuse of 'there are no spare diesel units'. What they actually mean is 'we don't want to pay for more capacity'.