ATW Overnight Outposts

[Deafdoggie]

Just trying to work my way through the standard Class 158 weekday diagrams in the new timetable and I've a few questions for Philippe or craigybagel:

I assume that the early morning Machynlleth-Barmouth is still the maintenance spare just doing a return trip and that the 06:45 ex-Barmouth goes back into the depot rather than joining the 07:30 ex-Aberystwyth.

How does the third Class 158 end up in Crewe CS?
One arrives off the 20:32 Shrewsbury-Crewe, and the second off the 23:50 ECS Manchester Piccadilly-Crewe.

Keeping with Crewe CS, I see one going ECS to Shrewsbury at 04:07 (joined with a Class 150 & Class 153) and then operates the 05:20 to Chester.
The second one is on the 03:00 ECS to Chester, before working the 04:22 Chester-Birmingham New St.
What happens the third set, which I assume ends up on the 06:40 Crewe-Shrewsbury somehow?

Also what happens to the 17:42 ex-Pwllheli? Does it join the 19:30 ex-Aberystwyth and then detach somewhere? I assume it must as otherwise the sets would be out of balance.

(I'm assuming that the 20:30 Aberystwth-Machynlleth forms the 21:47 Machynlleth-Pwllheil).

Also, on Sundays do the two Pwllheli based sets come down the coast during the winter, or just one?

Thanks in advance!

I know the 07:34 Crewe-Birmingham is an ATW 158, it joins in Shrewsbury with the 07:47 from Wrexham if that is any help at all

 

[berneyarms]

I know the 07:34 Crewe-Birmingham is an ATW 158, it joins in Shrewsbury with the 07:47 from Wrexham if that is any help at all

I know that too - it’s a six piece, ATW’s longest train.

It’s how the extra set gets there that’s the issue.

I’ve very specific queries as above but thanks in any case.

 

[Deafdoggie]

No worries, it was a two coach joining a two coach when I caught it-but it doesn't mean that is what it is supposed to be!

 

[Baxenden Bank]

As I worked it out, on a standard day:
5D03 used to deposit a 158 in platform 12 at Crewe (before continuing to Shrewsbury). That 158 then became 5J44 to platform 7, where it joined with the 158 ex Shrewsbury to form the 0640 to Shrewsbury where it became a triple 158 from there to Birmingham.

5J44 does not appear in the Winter timetable.

The third 158 could therefore commence in Shrewsbury as part of 5K40 off Abbey Foregate CS, or come from Aberystwyth / Machynlleth as part of 1G07.

Or it could do something different on different days according to maintenance requirements and engineering possessions.

However, I'm pleased to say my 158 diagrams now balance, on paper if not in daily use!
4 Shrewsbury
1 Cardiff
1 Carmarthen
4 Chester
2 Crewe
1 Holyhead
6 Machynlleth
2 Pwllheli

They even balance by platform / siding at Chester and Carmarthen. Awesome.

I await correction!

 

[berneyarms]

No worries, it was a two coach joining a two coach when I caught it-but it doesn't mean that is what it is supposed to be!

Correction - the 6pce is the 07:33 off Shrewsbury for Birmingham!

 

[berneyarms]

As I worked it out, on a standard day:
5D03 used to deposit a 158 in platform 12 at Crewe (before continuing to Shrewsbury). That 158 then became 5J44 to platform 7, where it joined with the 158 ex Shrewsbury to form the 0640 to Shrewsbury where it became a triple 158 from there to Birmingham.

5J44 does not appear in the Winter timetable.

The third 158 could therefore commence in Shrewsbury as part of 5K40 off Abbey Foregate CS, or come from Aberystwyth / Machynlleth as part of 1G07.

Or it could do something different on different days according to maintenance requirements and engineering possessions.

However, I'm pleased to say my 158 diagrams now balance, on paper if not in daily use!
4 Shrewsbury
1 Cardiff
1 Carmarthen
4 Chester
2 Crewe
1 Holyhead
6 Machynlleth
2 Pwllheli

They even balance by platform / siding at Chester and Carmarthen. Awesome.

I await correction!

That might make sense - an extra unit at Machynlleth instead of Crewe CS.

 

[craigybagel]

Normally, the Shrewsbury ECS doesn't go anywhere near Platform 12 at Crewe - it runs from LNWR into 7 and deposits a 158 there before it heads to Shrewsbury.

That said, it's been so long since there's been enough stock for the regular plan to actually take place, I'm not sure what the official plan is these days.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That might make sense - an extra unit at Machynlleth instead of Crewe CS.

1G07 runs as. 2 car, the 0530 AYW to BHI.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Normally, the Shrewsbury ECS doesn't go anywhere near Platform 12 at Crewe - it runs from LNWR into 7 and deposits a 158 there before it heads to Shrewsbury.

That said, it's been so long since there's been enough stock for the regular plan to actually take place, I'm not sure what the official plan is these days.

Lot of 2's instead of 4's through Newtown last few weeks worst problem was last Saturday's 1G25 the 0930 Aberystwyth to Birmingham International. Lost 5 minutes at Newtown as we tried to jam everybody in, people in front carriage were good about moving down the Isles not so responsive in rear carriage half a dozen left behind at Newtown no chance for anyone at Welshpool.

 

[berneyarms]

Normally, the Shrewsbury ECS doesn't go anywhere near Platform 12 at Crewe - it runs from LNWR into 7 and deposits a 158 there before it heads to Shrewsbury.

That said, it's been so long since there's been enough stock for the regular plan to actually take place, I'm not sure what the official plan is these days.

Yeah - I'm just trying to figure out what the official diagrams are - I've managed virtually all of them at this point except for the questions above - can you answer any of them?

 

[Jez]

I have a question about the 158s. On Saturday the 0630 Manchester-Milford, 1308 Milford-Manchester and 1930 Manchester-Cardiff is a 158 not a 175 like during the week. What is different about the 158 diagrams on a Saturday so that this extra 158 is available for South Wales-Manchester?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I have a question about the 158s. On Saturday the 0630 Manchester-Milford, 1308 Milford-Manchester and 1930 Manchester-Cardiff is a 158 not a 175 like during the week. What is different about the 158 diagrams on a Saturday so that this extra 158 is available for South Wales-Manchester?

The North Wales Coast to Manchester tt is quite different on weekdays/Saturday's.

 

[Jez]

The North Wales Coast to Manchester tt is quite different on weekdays/Saturday's.

thanks. So I guess that is where they find the spare 158? I think the reason the diagram is booked 158 on Saturday is because an extra 175 is booked for Chester for maintenance?

 

[craigybagel]

Yeah - I'm just trying to figure out what the official diagrams are - I've managed virtually all of them at this point except for the questions above - can you answer any of them?

AFAIK it's still 3 158s at Crewe. One is ECS to Chester (with a 150 on the rear), one ECS to Shrewsbury (on the rear of a 153 and 150), and one goes on the rear of the 0640 service to Shrewsbury.

I have a question about the 158s. On Saturday the 0630 Manchester-Milford, 1308 Milford-Manchester and 1930 Manchester-Cardiff is a 158 not a 175 like during the week. What is different about the 158 diagrams on a Saturday so that this extra 158 is available for South Wales-Manchester?

The ECS to Shrewsbury on the Saturday morning doesn't normally have a 158, it's just 153 + 150. This gives you a spare 158 in Crewe to go ECS to Manchester to form the 0630 to Milford Haven. Monday to Friday that diagram is a 175 that goes ECS from Chester (via Crewe) to Manchester.

 

[PHILIPE]

Rather than Reply to a particular post, I'll try to reply to all the 158 queries in one go. Regrettably have been unable to do so earlier but there has been a glitch in my account so have only been able to Browse. Lets go.

3 x 158s at Crewe - the third one arrives after attaching to 150 on 2145 Llandudno to Crewe at Chester.
17 42 ex Pwllheli attaches to 1930 ex Aber at Machynlleth and detaches at Shrewsbury.
The two at Pwllheli both come down to Machynlleth on a Sunday.
5D03 at Crewe detaches the 158 for part 0640 to Shrewsbury in Platform 7, no 5J44 required.
I'm surprised nobody has asked what the 4 at Chester do:-
03+49 to Llandudno Jcn (Attd 2x150) for 0438 LlandudnoJn to Crewe
0640 Chester to Crewe then onward to Shrewsbury, attaching to 0747 ex Wrexham, to Birmingham Intl
0530 to Birmingham International which is x2

 

[mervyn72]

Rather than Reply to a particular post, I'll try to reply to all the 158 queries in one go. Regrettably have been unable to do so earlier but there has been a glitch in my account so have only been able to Browse. Lets go.

3 x 158s at Crewe - the third one arrives after attaching to 150 on 2145 Llandudno to Crewe at Chester.
17 42 ex Pwllheli attaches to 1930 ex Aber at Machynlleth and detaches at Shrewsbury.
The two at Pwllheli both come down to Machynlleth on a Sunday.
5D03 at Crewe detaches the 158 for part 0640 to Shrewsbury in Platform 7, no 5J44 required.
I'm surprised nobody has asked what the 4 at Chester do:-
03+49 to Llandudno Jcn (Attd 2x150) for 0438 LlandudnoJn to Crewe
0640 Chester to Crewe then onward to Shrewsbury, attaching to 0747 ex Wrexham, to Birmingham Intl
0530 to Birmingham International which is x2

So what does the 1742 ex PWL do after detaching at Shrewsbury?

Also, what does the 1S10 ex AYW do after terminating Shrewsbury P5?

 

[PHILIPE]

So what does the 1742 ex PWL do after detaching at Shrewsbury?

Also, what does the 1S10 ex AYW do after terminating Shrewsbury P5?

1742 ex PWL is one of the 4 stabled overnight
1S10 attaches 1G15 0730 Aberystwyth Birmingham. Don't take any notice of Barmouth on 1G15 as I don't think it happens, runs with 2 from Machynlleth

 

[berneyarms]

1742 ex PWL is one of the 4 stabled overnight
1S10 attaches 1G15 0730 Aberystwyth Birmingham. Don't take any notice of Barmouth on 1G15 as I don't think it happens, runs with 2 from Machynlleth

The Machynlleth-Barmouth and return uses the maintenance spare set as I recall.

 

[berneyarms]

Rather than Reply to a particular post, I'll try to reply to all the 158 queries in one go. Regrettably have been unable to do so earlier but there has been a glitch in my account so have only been able to Browse. Lets go.

3 x 158s at Crewe - the third one arrives after attaching to 150 on 2145 Llandudno to Crewe at Chester.
17 42 ex Pwllheli attaches to 1930 ex Aber at Machynlleth and detaches at Shrewsbury.
The two at Pwllheli both come down to Machynlleth on a Sunday.
5D03 at Crewe detaches the 158 for part 0640 to Shrewsbury in Platform 7, no 5J44 required.
I'm surprised nobody has asked what the 4 at Chester do:-
03+49 to Llandudno Jcn (Attd 2x150) for 0438 LlandudnoJn to Crewe
0640 Chester to Crewe then onward to Shrewsbury, attaching to 0747 ex Wrexham, to Birmingham Intl
0530 to Birmingham International which is x2

Thanks for this.

It's fascinating trying to follow the links through.

First off the reason I asked about the 17:42 ex-Pwllheli, is that the ECS (5J72) from Shrewsbury to Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate CS at 21:37 is going from P7 (which is the Cl150 that comes in from Wrexham) and there is no ECS movement shown off P4 from where the 19:30 from Aberystwyth arrives. I was wondering if there had been a change in diagrams or if there was simply a shunt movement missing off the system.

The set that joins the 21:45 Llandudno-Crewe at Chester comes off which working? I can't see anything on P3 that would join up with it? The 5K21 from Chester REC to Chester P3 that was in the schedule no longer exists.

Regarding the two sets on the 13:48 from Pwllheli to Machynlleth on Sundays, do they both continue along the Cambrian mainline, joined to the 15:30 ex-Aberystwyth, or just one, or do they both pop into the depot for a visit?

The 5D03 doesn't serve P7 at Crewe per RTT in the new timetable, but again is this an oversight with yet another shunt move missing?

Looking at Fridays, does an additional set end up in Holyhead for Saturday morning, and if so what does it do next? Looking at the platforming at Chester, it would seem that the 20:34 Chester-Holyhead is formed off the 18:09 ex-Birmingham International.

I had figured out the Chester morning workings already actually!!

 

[craigybagel]

Thanks for this.

It's fascinating trying to follow the links through.

First off the reason I asked about the 17:42 ex-Pwllheli, is that the ECS (5J72) from Shrewsbury to Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate CS at 21:37 is going from P7 (which is the Cl150 that comes in from Wrexham) and there is no ECS movement shown off P4 from where the 19:30 from Aberystwyth arrives. I was wondering if there had been a change in diagrams or if there was simply a shunt movement missing off the system.


The 5D03 doesn't serve P7 at Crewe per RTT in the new timetable, but again is this an oversight with yet another shunt move missing?

5D03 has always used for P7 at Crewe (or at least it has done for the last 4 years when I've been around to see/travel on it).

1G75 (19:30 AYW - BHM) is a strange one. It's actually pretty rare it runs as a 4 car into SHR (and a quick check for today reveals its planned to be a 2 car throughout) but I can't actually remember if the booked diagrams show it as a 2 car or 4 car.

 

[berneyarms]

5D03 has always used for P7 at Crewe (or at least it has done for the last 4 years when I've been around to see/travel on it).

1G75 (19:30 AYW - BHM) is a strange one. It's actually pretty rare it runs as a 4 car into SHR (and a quick check for today reveals its planned to be a 2 car throughout) but I can't actually remember if the booked diagrams show it as a 2 car or 4 car.

The actual and booked moves for 5D03 appear to bear you out on that! It looks like an error in the WTT.

It's booked for P12 but appears to serve P7 in reality.

 

[Gareth Marston]

1742 ex PWL is one of the 4 stabled overnight
1S10 attaches 1G15 0730 Aberystwyth Birmingham. Don't take any notice of Barmouth on 1G15 as I don't think it happens, runs with 2 from Machynlleth

1G15 runs as 4 car on Saturdays only. 2 in week the unit off 2G15 ex Barmouth goes back on depot.

 

[berneyarms]

1G15 runs as 4 car on Saturdays only. 2 in week the unit off 2G15 ex Barmouth goes back on depot.

That makes sense - it was the last minute change that ensured the 07:47 Wrexham-Birmingham service was retained (much to a late member of this site's relief!).

 

[PHILIPE]

That makes sense - it was the last minute change that ensured the 07:47 Wrexham-Birmingham service was retained (much to a late member of this site's relief!).

When ATW tried to withdraw the 0747 ex Wrexham until all the locals kicked up a fuss
5D03 shown Platform 7 at Crewe on todays schedule.

 

[berneyarms]

When ATW tried to withdraw the 0747 ex Wrexham until all the locals kicked up a fuss
5D03 shown Platform 7 at Crewe on todays schedule.

I know that on both of those, sure I was an active participant in that debate with our late member from Wrexham on that topic!

Re 5D03, look at a future date re the ECS from Crewe CS to Shrewsbury and you’ll see it’s booked for P12 at Crewe.

My point in all of these queries is to establish whether there are changes in the booked weekday diagrams for the ATW Class 158 fleet with the new timetable, and then to try and figure out the weekend diagrams.

 

[PHILIPE]

I know that on both of those, sure I was an active participant in that debate with our late member from Wrexham on that topic!

Re 5D03, look at a future date re the ECS from Crewe CS to Shrewsbury and you’ll see it’s booked for P12 at Crewe.

My point in all of these queries is to establish whether there are changes in the booked weekday diagrams for the ATW Class 158 fleet with the new timetable, and then to try and figure out the weekend diagrams.

RTT today seems to show what 5D03 actually did. Some of the ECS workings tend to be a little dodgy at times, for instance the ECS from Chester Sidings (REC) to attach to 1945 Llandudno to Crewe has not been carried forward to this Timetable.

 

[berneyarms]

RTT today seems to show what 5D03 actually did. Some of the ECS workings tend to be a little dodgy at times, for instance the ECS from Chester Sidings (REC) to attach to 1945 Llandudno to Crewe has not been carried forward to this Timetable.

That could make sense.

So is it your opinion that it’s still booked to actually happen and similarly the ECS to Abbey Foregate CS off the 19:30 ex-Aberystwyth at Shrewsbury and that they’re just omissions in the WTT?

Also, any ideas on my Friday Holyhead question above?

 

[PHILIPE]

That could make sense.

So is it your opinion that it’s still booked to actually happen and similarly the ECS to Abbey Foregate CS off the 19:30 ex-Aberystwyth at Shrewsbury and that they’re just omissions in the WTT?

Also, any ideas on my Friday Holyhead question above?

Have now checked this one out and there are 2 158 starters at Holyhead on Saturdays due to a different service pattern:-

1G93 0522 to Birmingham Intl and
1G20 0715 to Birmingham Intl

They have to be 158s due to returning from Birmingham to Cambrian

 

[berneyarms]

Have now checked this one out and there are 2 158 starters at Holyhead on Saturdays due to a different service pattern:-

1G93 0522 to Birmingham Intl and
1G20 0715 to Birmingham Intl

They have to be 158s due to returning from Birmingham to Cambrian

Cheers - will work through my links and no doubt will have a few more questions in due course!

 

[PHILIPE]

Cheers - will work through my links and no doubt will have a few more questions in due course!

By the way, I looked at CIS (Tiger) last night and 2145 Llandudno attached a unit at Chester making it 4 Cars.