ATW on-board ticket policy

[Flying Snail]

What is ATWs policy regards buying discounted tickets on board when travelling from a staffed station?

Reason I ask is that I may later be in the position of arriving at a station (HHD) without enough time to buy my rail ticket from the ticket office but just enough time to sprint for the train and avoid an hour wait for the next train.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would assume it would be the same as most other TOCs that if there was opportunity to buy before boarding (ie open ticket office or working TVMs) then you will not be able to take advantage of any discounts that you might be entitled to. However having a chat with the guard as soon as you can and explaining the situation to them might yield some positive results.

 

[Flying Snail]

I would assume it would be the same as most other TOCs that if there was opportunity to buy before boarding (ie open ticket office or working TVMs) then you will not be able to take advantage of any discounts that you might be entitled to. However having a chat with the guard as soon as you can and explaining the situation to them might yield some positive results.

Yes, that is the current plan, if it is not possible to get the ticket beforehand I will see if I can talk to the guard before the train departs.

I had planned on the assumption that I would miss the earlier train but it may just be possible and with good connections it would get save me 90mns.

Problem with HHD is that there is only one ticket window, no ticket machine and a ferry load of clueless people who each will spend 5+ minutes arseing about at the window.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, that is the current plan, if it is not possible to get the ticket beforehand I will see if I can talk to the guard before the train departs.

I had planned on the assumption that I would miss the earlier train but it may just be possible and with good connections it would get save me 90mns.

Problem with HHD is that there is only one ticket window, no ticket machine and a ferry load of clueless people who each will spend 5+ minutes arseing about at the window.

That pretty much sums up Holyhead!

I can tell you that in south wales there is no penalty imposed for buying on board. I've seen guards happily sell all sorts of discounted tickets to people getting on at Llanelli when the ticket office is open. I have never seen or heard of a refusal.

I do think, however, that it would be a very good idea to have a word with the guard before boarding. Although I've only been there twice, on both occasions the guard was very visible before departure, and dealt with quite a few passenger enquiries.

 

[Flamingo]

As with all these things, if you ask before boarding you should get a favourable result.

A tip is to have cash and let the guard know you will be paying cash when you talk to them, as there are a large number of cards out there that are not accepted by our mobile chip&pin setup, and some people don't go to the booking office as they know the card will be declined on-board and they will not be charged - or that the card will / has already been declined at the booking office.
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That pretty much sums up Holyhead!

I can tell you that in south wales there is no penalty imposed for buying on board. I've seen guards happily sell all sorts of discounted tickets to people getting on at Llanelli when the ticket office is open. I have never seen or heard of a refusal.

I do think, however, that it would be a very good idea to have a word with the guard before boarding. Although I've only been there twice, on both occasions the guard was very visible before departure, and dealt with quite a few passenger enquiries.

Port Talbot is the same, and people get used to buying tickets on-board with all the discounts. They then get upset with me when I charge standard singles, with no railcard.

 

[Greenback]

Port Talbot is the same, and people get used to buying tickets on-board with all the discounts. They then get upset with me when I charge standard singles, with no railcard.

Another example of the inconsistenies across the privatsied rail system. One station, two TOC's, different policies on enforcement, people either confused or chancing their arm by hoping to talk their way out of it.

 

[Flamingo]

The difference in fares is usually pence, and I'll always ask the platform staff if the booking office is open when I am going through. Once we have passed Bridgend, a large number who got on at PTA will then ask for tickets from Bridgend, and if Cardiff is reached, I suspect will ask for a ticket from Grangetown at the excess fares window.

 

[island]

As with all these things, if you ask before boarding you should get a favourable result.

A tip is to have cash and let the guard know you will be paying cash when you talk to them, as there are a large number of cards out there that are not accepted by our mobile chip&pin setup, and some people don't go to the booking office as they know the card will be declined on-board and they will not be charged - or that the card will / has already been declined at the booking office.

Shouldn't people be UPFNed if their card doesn't work, with the possibility of heading for prosecution for avoiding payment of fare if they continually tender an unaccepted card knowing it's not accepted and having had the opportunity to obtain an alternative payment method?

 

[Flamingo]

It takes ages to fill in a UPFN and we still have to ring to confirm the name and address. It is actually quicker to ring for card authorisation (depending on phone signal).

Contrary to popular belief and opinion on this board, there is NO obligation on the part of train crew to issue a UPFN, and when we do issue UPFN's;
1. They are issued for the full anytime price from start to finish
2. They are only valid on the services of the issuing TOC
3. They should only be issued to the next station, except in exceptional circumstances. (The person issuing the UPFN is the one who decides if the circumstances are exceptional, not the passenger). At that station the passenger has to leave the train, and sort out a plan B.
4. It takes 10 minutes minimum to issue a UPFN. That is a lot of time if there is 15 minutes between stops.

It is up to the passenger to ensure they have means to pay for the journey - especially if travelling from somewhere where they could have used their card at a TVM/Booking office. If someone gives me a card which is declined and they have come from such a station, I am VERY suspicious, and my plan A with them is to tell them to go to the booking office at the next manned station we reach, and purchase a ticket - with the platform staff at that station being made aware of them and what station they started from.

 

[185]

If the card doesn't work they should ring the control and have the card manually authorised by the bank.

If anyone wants the ordinary rate ticket on board, a courtesy is to ask the guard - The majority, 90% will probably offer the cheapet ticket to those who are polite enough, even when leggin it past the back door. There's always that 10% though. And you know my views on that 10% that give the other 90% a bad reputation

 

[island]

I have three cards that I know won't work in an Avantix Mobile. I must get on a FGW HST sometime and hope I get Flamingo

 

[Flying Snail]

Thanks for the responses chaps.

I made the train with 2 min to spare and the guard was fine with selling the ticket I needed.

About a dozen others off the ferry also ran and caught the train, most inboard didn't.


Flamingo's attitude may sound harsh but when dealing with chancers regularly it is necessary.

There are a significant number of people for whom attempting to avoid fares is normal. They will pay up if forced to but any and every dodge will be used first.

It is all very well to worry about the odd innocent pax who may appear to be treated harshly but it is a disservice to the vast majority of decent passengers to let the serial dodgers get away with it.

If instead of selling me the discounted tux the guard had said "sorry full fare only from this station" I would have accepted that .

God knows I have on occasion taken a similar line with people that probably were genuine even though I try to be as flexible as I can with them. I have also caught out plenty of plenty of career dodgers and the look on their faces when they realise they are not going to get away with the crap they have used countless tomes before is one of the few pleasures I get from my job. That and a priv card.

 

[Flamingo]

If the card doesn't work they should ring the control and have the card manually authorised by the bank.

If anyone wants the ordinary rate ticket on board, a courtesy is to ask the guard - The majority, 90% will probably offer the cheapet ticket to those who are polite enough, even when leggin it past the back door. There's always that 10% though. And you know my views on that 10% that give the other 90% a bad reputation

Although I am usually one of the 90%, there are times that I am one of the 10%. There can be many reasons for this, but one of them is that by being one of the 90% I am leaving myself open to disciplinary action for not following the NRCoC.

Using discretion is a good thing, and the job does give us the de facto power to do so. However, that does not mean that we are obliged to turn a blind eye to every breach of the NRCoC we encounter.

I will sometimes enforce them to the letter if I feel that the person is chancing their arm, or their story does not add up, and their attitude stinks. As Judge Judy says, "If it doesn't sound sensible, it usually isn't true". And once I have enforced them to the hilt with one person, i can't then be more "flexible" with anyone else in that coach (or on that train) as then I am leaving myself open to complaints of favouritism, sexism or racism. As I said, if I stick to the letter of the law, then any complaint will not go far - as I have just followed my employers instructions in how to deal with that situation.

Expecting people to bend the rules, and ignore their employers instructions is unfair on them, calling them "jobsworths" for doing so is just plain childish.

The people who do so should really be asking "Why am I in the position of having to ask a total stranger to risk their employment and lose money to accommodate me?" However, in the current "it's all about me" society, that is not going to happen.

Edited to add: I get 5% commission on ticket sales. If someone is on a train from Paddington to Cardiff, and they have not been bothered to go to the booking office, I should be charging them £94.50. The SSR is £37. Every time I sell an SSR, I am losing out on approx £3 commission (more if I excess up their Advance or Railcard ticket that is incorrect). I have bills to pay, why should I miss out on a chance to maximise my income?
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Thanks for the responses chaps.

I made the train with 2 min to spare and the guard was fine with selling the ticket I needed.

About a dozen others off the ferry also ran and caught the train, most inboard didn't.


Flamingo's attitude may sound harsh but when dealing with chancers regularly it is necessary.

There are a significant number of people for whom attempting to avoid fares is normal. They will pay up if forced to but any and every dodge will be used first.

It is all very well to worry about the odd innocent pax who may appear to be treated harshly but it is a disservice to the vast majority of decent passengers to let the serial dodgers get away with it.

If instead of selling me the discounted tux the guard had said "sorry full fare only from this station" I would have accepted that .

God knows I have on occasion taken a similar line with people that probably were genuine even though I try to be as flexible as I can with them. I have also caught out plenty of plenty of career dodgers and the look on their faces when they realise they are not going to get away with the crap they have used countless tomes before is one of the few pleasures I get from my job. That and a priv card.

Glad it worked out