ATW North Wales 158s

[CallySleeper]

I'm looking for confirmation of North Wales diagrams which are 158s. So far I have the following trains (SSuX):

1D10 06:54 Crewe - Holyhead
1D11 07:08 Birmingham International - Llandudno
1D12 09:09 Birmingham International - Holyhead
1D13 11:08 Birmingham International - Holyhead
1D16 17:08 Birmingham International - Llandudno
1D19 22:55 Birmingham New Street - Holyhead
1D21 19:24 Shrewsbury - Holyhead
1D32 07:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Holyhead
1D33 08:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Holyhead
1D41 22:04 Chester - Holyhead
1D70 18:40 Llandudno Junction - Chester
1D95 16:25 Llandudno Junction - Chester
1G30 09:23 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1G40 11:27 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1G50 13:28 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1G60 15:44 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1H86 10:44 Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly
1H97 20:43 Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly
1J70 17:30 Holyhead - Shrewsbury
1V95 10:40 Holyhead - Llanelli
5D50 04:28 Chester DMUD - Lladudno Junction (+ Conwy 153)

2x158:
1D14 13:08 Birmingham International - Holyhead
1D15 15:08 Birmingham International - Holyhead
1G31 07:15 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1G93 05:14 Holyhead - Birmingham International

I would much appreciate confirmation of those, or indeed any alterations/further additions if possible, thanks.

 

[PHILIPE]

It would be easier to answer if you said what the trains were rather than somebody have to go wading through stuff for the Reporting numbers.

 

[Welshman]

It would be easier to answer if you said what the trains were rather than somebody have to go wading through stuff for the Reporting numbers.

Agreed.

However, from my observations, the following are usually 158s:-

All Holyhead-Birmingham Internationals [as interworked with Birmingham-Aberystwyth service.

Plus:-
0438 Llandudno Junction-Crewe
0654 Crewe-Holyhead
M-F 0850 Manchester-Holyhead & Llandudno [ 2x158 - service divides at Chester]
M-F 1144 Llandudno-Manchester
1450 M-F Manchester-Llandudno
1705 M-F Llandudno- Manchester
1950 M-F Manchester-Chester
1625 M-F Llandudno Junction-Chester [formed from divided rear portion off 1308 Birmingham Int-Holyhead], then strengthens 1508 Birmingham Int- Holyhead from Chester to Llandudno Junction.

There may be more - these are simply the ones I've observed. Also, on occasions, a 150 can turn-up, if ATW is a 158 short. This sometimes happens with the Llandudno portion of the M-F 0850 off Manchester, and then remains on the rest of the diagram.

You may have mentioned all these in your post, but I too haven't time to wade through all the reporting numbers.

 

[merlodlliw]

There is also an early morning 158 Llandudno Junction to Manchester,and has its North Wales the 0600 158 through Wrexham to Chester forms part of a four coach 158 to Manchester,

Two early morning 4 coach 158s run Chester to Manchester in place of three coach 175s, due to overcrowding.

As for 150s Llandudno to Manchester, North Wales newsboad this week as a picture link http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

 

[Gareth Marston]

Agreed.

However, from my observations, the following are usually 158s:-

All Holyhead-Birmingham Internationals [as interworked with Birmingham-Aberystwyth service.

Plus:-
0438 Llandudno Junction-Crewe
0654 Crewe-Holyhead
M-F 0850 Manchester-Holyhead & Llandudno [ 2x158 - service divides at Chester]
M-F 1144 Llandudno-Manchester
1450 M-F Manchester-Llandudno
1705 M-F Llandudno- Manchester
1950 M-F Manchester-Chester
1625 M-F Llandudno Junction-Chester [formed from divided rear portion off 1308 Birmingham Int-Holyhead], then strengthens 1508 Birmingham Int- Holyhead from Chester to Llandudno Junction.

There may be more - these are simply the ones I've observed. Also, on occasions, a 150 can turn-up, if ATW is a 158 short. This sometimes happens with the Llandudno portion of the M-F 0850 off Manchester, and then remains on the rest of the diagram.

You may have mentioned all these in your post, but I too haven't time to wade through all the reporting numbers.

Can't really add to that stand anywhere between Holyhead and Chester and you'll see a couple come past every hour.

 

[Philip]

Do 175s still occasionally stand in for 158s on the Birmingham services? (I know it'd require a unit change on the way back at Shrewsbury mind)

 

[Welshman]

I cannot recall having seen one - but that doesn't mean it never happens, of course!

I do seem to remember at the back of my mind that the "Little Irish Mail" - the 2255 off Birmingham New St to Holyhead[the one that goes via Stafford rather than Shrewsbury] was sometimes a 175.0 or 175.1, but I've never actually seen this train as I'm a good little boy and usually safely tucked-up in bed by the time it passes!

 

[CallySleeper]

OP amended with long list, thanks.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm looking for confirmation of North Wales diagrams which are 158s. So far I have the following trains (SSuX):

1D10 06:54 Crewe - Holyhead
1D11 07:08 Birmingham International - Llandudno
1D12 09:09 Birmingham International - Holyhead
1D13 11:08 Birmingham International - Holyhead
1D16 17:08 Birmingham International - Llandudno
1D19 22:55 Birmingham New Street - Holyhead
1D21 19:24 Shrewsbury - Holyhead
1D32 07:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Holyhead
1D33 08:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Holyhead
1D41 22:04 Chester - Holyhead
1D70 18:40 Llandudno Junction - Chester
1D95 16:25 Llandudno Junction - Chester
1G30 09:23 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1G40 11:27 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1G50 13:28 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1G60 15:44 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1H86 10:44 Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly
1H97 20:43 Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly
1J70 17:30 Holyhead - Shrewsbury
1V95 10:40 Holyhead - Llanelli
5D50 04:28 Chester DMUD - Lladudno Junction (+ Conwy 153)

2x158:
1D14 13:08 Birmingham International - Holyhead
1D15 15:08 Birmingham International - Holyhead
1G31 07:15 Holyhead - Birmingham International
1G93 05:14 Holyhead - Birmingham International

I would much appreciate confirmation of those, or indeed any alterations/further additions if possible, thanks.

Following amendments:-

07 08 Birmingham Int to Llandudno = 175
07 50 Manchester to Holyhead = 175
08 50 Manchester to Holyhead 2x158 to Chester and split for Llandudno
22 04 Crewe to Holyhead = 175
10 44 Llandudno to Manchester = 175
10 40 Holyhead to Llanelli = 175
04+28 ECS Chester to Llandudno Jn is 158 + 150 (for Conwy Valley)
Not been a 153 for some years now.

13 08 Birmingham Int to Holyhead = 2x158 to Llandudno Jn
15 08 Birmingham Int to Holyhead = To Shrewsbury only
05 14/07 15 Holyhead to Birmingham Int from Shrewsbury only

 

[Welshman]

Thank you for amending your original list.

Whenever I've caught the 1044 Llandudno-Manchester Piccadilly [ex 0708 from Birmingham International], it has been a 175.0, and that remains on Manchester-Llandudno diagrams for the rest of the day.

Again, in my experience, the 1308 and 1508 Birmingham Internationals to Holyhead have been strengthened to 2x158s from Chester to Llandudno Junction [but that doesn't mean they haven't started from Birmingham International as 2x158s and lost the rear set at Shrewsbury! ATW seem to love playing with their train sets at Shrewsbury.

And again, I've not seen the following services -only heard them when I can't sleep - but I thought the 0320 Chester DMUD to Llandudno Junction was a 150/158 combination - the 158 then forming the 0438 Llandudno Junction-Crewe, with the 150 remaining at the Junction to form the 0535 up the Conwy branch [and that has been a 150, not a 153, for some time now as a result of Community Groups in the Conwy Valley requesting a train of a higher capacity], and that the 0428 Chester DMUD-Llandudno Junction was a 175 combination, with the leading set then forming the 0613 to Llandudno and the rear set the 0546 to Manchester.

But, as I said, I've never seen these last two ECS trains - only heard them occasionally - and I can't distinguish a 158 from a 175 purely by sound!

Edit - I see Philipe has got in before me!

 

[CallySleeper]

Notes in red

Following amendments:-

07 08 Birmingham Int to Llandudno ---> 10 44 Llandudno to Manchester = 175
07 50 Manchester to Holyhead ---> 10 40 Holyhead to Llanelli = 175
08 50 Manchester to Holyhead 2x158 to Chester and split for Llandudno implies that 11:44 Llandudno - Man Pic // 14:50 Man Picc - Llandudno // 17:05 Llandudno - Man Picc is a 158 diagram?
22 04 Crewe to Holyhead = 175
04+28 ECS Chester to Llandudno Jn is 158 + 150 (for Conwy Valley)
Not been a 153 for some years now. Thanks.


13 08 Birmingham Int to Holyhead = 2x158 to Llandudno Jn
15 08 Birmingham Int to Holyhead = To Shrewsbury only I've got 1D70 (18.40 ex LLJ) forming off this service
05 14/07 15 Holyhead to Birmingham Int from Shrewsbury only (are these single 158 from HHD then? e: actually this balances out if 1D41 is 175)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thank you both.

I have the 04:38 LLJ - Crewe down as a 175, is that wrong then? Similarly, the 05:46 LLJ - Man Picc a 158. But this forms the 07:50 from Man Pic which should be 175.

 

[Welshman]

Notes in red

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thank you both.

I have the 04:38 LLJ - Crewe down as a 175, is that wrong then? Similarly, the 05:46 LLJ - Man Picc a 158. But this forms the 07:50 from Man Pic which should be 175.

Yes - to my knowledge[ as I said in my first post], the 0438 LLJ-Crewe is a 158 and the returning 0654 to Holyhead has been a 158 when I've seen it at Chester; and the 0546 LLJ - Man Picc, forming the 0750 return from Man Picc. is a 175.

And the 0850 Manchester-Holyhead/Llandudno [formed from the 0712 Chester-Manchester] is 2x158, dividing at Chester, and the returning 1144 Llandudno-Manchester, and the remainder of services on that diagram, ending with the 1950 Manchester-Chester, is normally a 158, although occasionally a 150 deputises when ATW are a set short.

I'm going to have a lie-down now, as my head hurts!

 

[CallySleeper]

One more.. what happens to the set off 15:08 Birmingham Int - Holyhead when it gets to Holyhead? Assuming it berths as 20:37 ex Holyhead is a 175, but which service would it form in the morning?

 

[PHILIPE]

One more.. what happens to the set off 15:08 Birmingham Int - Holyhead when it gets to Holyhead? Assuming it berths as 20:37 ex Holyhead is a 175, but which service would it form in the morning?

Works 1G76 19 21 Holyhead to Birmingham. The 13 08 Birmingham is a 6 coach set, detaches 2 as usual at Shrewsbury takes 4 on to Llandudno Jn, detaches and forms a Llandudno Jn to Chester then attaches at Chester to 15 08 as far as Llandudno Jn

 

[CallySleeper]

Wow completely missed 1G76. Knew something was up, thanks!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Do 175s still occasionally stand in for 158s on the Birmingham services? (I know it'd require a unit change on the way back at Shrewsbury mind)

On Sunday's, 1G77 1825 Holyhead to Birmingham International and 1D33 2243 Birmingham International to Holyhead are actually booked for a 3 car 175!

Not sure of any others though, they're mainly on the Cardiff/Llandudno to Holyhead/Manchester corridor.

 

[nowananorack]

The Cambrian lines from Birmingham / Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth / Phwleli are always 158's

 

[PHILIPE]

On Sunday's, 1G77 1825 Holyhead to Birmingham International and 1D33 2243 Birmingham International to Holyhead are actually booked for a 3 car 175!

Not sure of any others though, they're mainly on the Cardiff/Llandudno to Holyhead/Manchester corridor.

These two run via Stafford. However the following are 175/0s:-

1G34 19 26 (Suns) Chester to Birmingham Int.
1J35 22 11 (Suns) Birmingham Int to Shrewsbury
1G28 05 18 (M-F) Shrewsbury to Birmingham Int
1D11 07 08 (M-F) Birmingham Int to Llandudno

 

[merlodlliw]

0700 ish, two coach 158 Shrewsbury to Wrexham(platform three) returns at 0747ish Wrexham General to Salop- and joins the Holyhead/Birmingham diverted via Crewe around 0832 to make a four coach.

Reason Gerald stole the Holyhead/Birmingham via Wrexham path.Due to heavy traffic at Wrexham & Gobowen, after protests by passengers,ATW put the stopping 158 on.

 

[ValleyLines142]

These two run via Stafford. However the following are 175/0s:-

1G34 19 26 (Suns) Chester to Birmingham Int.
1J35 22 11 (Suns) Birmingham Int to Shrewsbury
1G28 05 18 (M-F) Shrewsbury to Birmingham Int
1D11 07 08 (M-F) Birmingham Int to Llandudno

Oh wow, had no idea!

 

[CallySleeper]

Some more for Saturdays please folks...

1D10 07:03 Crewe - Holyhead
1D11 07:09 Birmingham I - Holyhead
1D12 09:09 Birmingham I - Holyhead
1D13 11:09 Birmingham I - Holyhead
1D14 13:09 Birmingham I - Holyhead
1D15 15:09 Birmingham I - Holyhead
1D16 17:09 Birmingham I - Holyhead
1D66 21:00 Crewe - Holyhead
1G20 07:15 Holyhead - Birmingham
1G30 09:23 Holyhead - Birmingham
1G40 11:23 Holyhead - Birmingham
1G50 13:28 Holyhead - Birmingham
1G60 15:23 Holyhead - Birmingham
1G76 19:21 Holyhead - Birmingham
1G93 05:22 Holyhead - Birmingham
1J70 17:30 Holyhead - Shrewsbury
1K02 04:38 Llandudno J - Crewe
plus
1K04 05:37 Llandudno J - Crewe as a 150?

 

[Welshman]

I haven't had chance to observe as many Saturday workings, but I would guess that what you state seems about right as the Birminghams are 158s for reasons of interworking with the Cambrian line[as stated in an earlier post]. and the Manchester-Llandudnos are almost always all 175s [except in cases of a breakdown/stock shortage], as that timetable is more of a "regular" pattern on a Saturday - ie no tea-time peak alterations and no Manchester-Holyheads.

I'm not sure about the 0537 Llandudno Junction-Crewe being a 150 though. Mrs Welshman has travelled on it occasionally to get an early arrival in London, but I'm afraid, to my despair and despite my excellent tuition, she still cannot tell a 150 from a 158 or 175!

 

[CallySleeper]

she still cannot tell a 150 from a 158 or 175!

seriously

1K04 is timed as a Sprinter. It forms from 5D02 which also includes:
1K02 (timed as a 158, same as SSuX), and 2D10 (Conwy 150). It stands to reason then that it can't possibly be a 175, but not fast enough for a 158 (though it could be run as one in theory)

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm not sure about the 0537 Llandudno Junction-Crewe being a 150 though. Mrs Welshman has travelled on it occasionally to get an early arrival in London, but I'm afraid, to my despair and despite my excellent tuition, she still cannot tell a 150 from a 158 or 175!

My other half travels on the train a fair amount from Wrexham,& does not understand various classes except one the pacer,when she goes to Cardiff bay she remarks on those awful buses on rails.

 

[PHILIPE]

All 158s except:-

21 00 Crewe to Holyhead = 175/0
05 37 Llandudno Jcn to Crewe = 150.

 

[CallySleeper]

If 2100 Crewe - Holyhead is a 175, then which service on a Sunday morning ex Holyhead is a 158?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm trying to figure out the Sunday diagrams but naturally it isn't going very well, partly since most of the down trains are timed as sprinters. This is what I have so far, thanks in advance for any confirmations/amendments/gaps filled in. Hope it makes sense.

158s:
1K03 0845 HHD - CRE ---> 1D14 1127 CRE - HHD (then what?)
1V90 1020 HHD - CDF
*by my calculations only one 158 set is in HHD overnight so one of these has to be a 175
1D16 1327 CRE - HHD ---> 1V92 1625 HHD - CDF
1W90 1322 CDF - HHD + 1D22 1627 CRE - HHD ---> 1K07 1940 HHD - CRE
1D24 1727 CRE - HHD ---> 1K08 2035 HHD - CRE
1D17 1707 BHI - HHD
1D32 2229 CRE - HHD

175s:
1D13 0924 CRE - HHD ---> 1H87 1430 HHD - MAN ---> 1D30 2127 CRE - HHD
1D15 1227 CRE - HHD ---> 1K09 1530 HHD - CRE ---> 1D26 1827 CRE - HHD + 1W92 1522 CDF - HHD ---> 1D97 2140 CRE - CTR
1D18 1427 CRE - HHD ---> 1K05 1730 HHD - CRE
1D20 1527 CRE - HHD ---> 1G77 1825 HHD - BHI ---> 1D33 2243 BHI - HHD

HHD - Holyhead
CTR - Chester
CRE - Crewe
MAN - Manchester Piccadilly
BHI - Birmingham International

 

[PHILIPE]

Unless it has altered, the 158 at Holyhead stays until forming a portion (4 Cars) of the 14 30 Holyhead to Manchester. I can't go into detail re everything on a Sunday but virtually everything else (i.e. the Crewes) are 175s. You fall into the trap of trying to ascertain what is diagrammed from the TIMING LOAD details.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless it has altered, the 158 at Holyhead stays until forming a portion (4 Cars) of the 14 30 Holyhead to Manchester. I can't go into detail re everything on a Sunday but virtually everything else (i.e. the Crewes) are 175s. You fall into the trap of trying to ascertain what is diagrammed from the TIMING LOAD details.

I think I may be able to help now after looking at them again although they may not be completely up to dat:-

At Holyhead overnight:-

Attd 14 30 Holyhead to Manchester Picc = 158
08 45 Holyhead to Crewe = 175/0
(175/0 Attd Llandudno Jn and detaches Chester) then
11 27 Crewe to Holyhead & Attd 17 30 Holyhead to Crewe (To Chester)
10 20 Holyhead to Cardiff = 175/1

Sunday:-
13 27 Crewe to Holyhead & 16 25 Holyhead to Cardiff = 175/1
13 22 Cardiff to Holyhead & Attd 20 35 Holyhead to Crewe = 175/?
16 27 Crewe to Holyhead & 19 40 Holyhead to Crewe = 158+150
17 27 Crewe to Holyhead & Attd 20 35 Holyhead to Crewe = 175/?
17 07 Birmingham Int to Holyhead & overnight = 158
22 29 Crewe to Holyhead = 175/0
09 24 Crewe to Holyhead & Attd 14 30 Holyhead to Manchester
& 21 27 Crewe to Holyhead = 158
12 27 Crewe to Holyhead, 15 30 Holyhead to Crewe, 18 27 Crewe
to Holyhead & 21 40 Holyhead to Chester = 175/1
14 27 Crewe to Holyhead & Attd 1730 Holyhead to Crewe = 175/1
15 27 Crewe to Holyhead & 18 27 Holyhead to Birmingham = 175/1

 

[CallySleeper]

Philipe, thank you so very much! A couple of queries:

By my calculations I need 2 x 158 and 3 x 175 in Holyhead overnight. So far, I have the 0049 ex Crewe and 0210 ex Birmingham, but I'm missing a third.
I'm guessing, 1522 Cardiff - Holyhead is a 175? If so what happens to it in Holyhead? Does it attach to 1827 Crewe - Holyhead to form 2140 to Chester? Or does it berth.
Also, if 1430 Holyhead - Man is 2x158, and it eventually forms 2127 Crewe - Holyhead, does it detach the second 158 or does it arrive back in Holyhead still 2x158.

Thanks!

 

[PHILIPE]

Philipe, thank you so very much! A couple of queries:

By my calculations I need 2 x 158 and 3 x 175 in Holyhead overnight. So far, I have the 0049 ex Crewe and 0210 ex Birmingham, but I'm missing a third.
I'm guessing, 1522 Cardiff - Holyhead is a 175? If so what happens to it in Holyhead? Does it attach to 1827 Crewe - Holyhead to form 2140 to Chester? Or does it berth.
Also, if 1430 Holyhead - Man is 2x158, and it eventually forms 2127 Crewe - Holyhead, does it detach the second 158 or does it arrive back in Holyhead still 2x158.

Thanks!

175 stays at Holyhead & other 158 lost at Chester.

 

[CallySleeper]

There's a few (Sunday) trains which are shown on OTT to detach/attach portions at Llandudno Junction. Other than 1K03 does that actually happen in reality? I'd have to look up the specific trains.