ATW May 2013 Timetable

[Eagle]

• Give the Valley Lines, Swanline and the services west of Swansea to the operator of the London - Cardiff - Swansea services
• Give the Aberystwyth service to the operator of the Wolverhampton - Birmingham - London services
• Give the North Wales Coast services to the operator of the Holyhead - London service

So basically, split like it was before 2001? (Except of course you've merged them with different franchises as all three have been significantly redrawn.)

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's an easy answer to that...

• Give the Valley Lines, Swanline and the services west of Swansea to the operator of the London - Cardiff - Swansea services
• Give the Aberystwyth service to the operator of the Wolverhampton - Birmingham - London services
• Give the North Wales Coast services to the operator of the Holyhead - London service

That way you have the intercity and the "local" in one TOC, which has an incentive to promote the "local" services, an incentive to co-ordinate them with the "intercity" services and keep costs down.

The only problem with that is it'd mean certain people would have to abandon any ambitions of an "All Wales" franchise... maybe not a bad thing though.

likewise with Northern Rail?
Cheshire/Lancashire/Cumbria - West Coast
S Yorks- Midland Main Line
rest of North - East Coast.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Haha, that 'waiting room' is ridiculously tiny! And in the winter can get ridiculously hot, as the fan heater is obviously designed to heat a much larger space.

There is another larger waiting room across the bridge on platform 4 - but that's quite a trek from platform 2, where the Birmingham trains generally depart from.

The car park upgrade at Chester never happened (as you may know).
The plan against which Arriva was supposed to spend money did not get council planning permission.
The question at the ATW Wrexham event was, when will Chester have something better than a 3rd world car park? No answer.
To add insult to injury the west car park is constrained by the totally unused and dilapidated corridor to the Royal Mail depot.

 

[Rhydgaled]

According to contacts, the footex was going to be all six car Mark 3s, but using the 1st buffet in place of one was considered better for pax comfort on such a long journey,however seven cars if used would have been filled.
Bob

So all 6 mark3s are done then. Interestingly I've just been pointed in the direction of video125 fourms, where I found this topic which suggests:

we now have enough DVT's and MK3's to have 3 full rake's

If there really is a third set of mrk3s, presumably paid for by WAG, why hasn't WAG told ATW to put on a reverse Y Gerallt Gymro (northbound morning southbound evening, you could call it Y Gymro Hedegog?), or releive crowding with a 2nd set? Alternatively, the extra set might have allowed Gerald to still run at weekends and bank holidays with 6 other coaches in a rugby/boat-train special set on the same day.

There's an easy answer to that...

• Give the Valley Lines, Swanline and the services west of Swansea to the operator of the London - Cardiff - Swansea services
• Give the Aberystwyth service to the operator of the Wolverhampton - Birmingham - London services
• Give the North Wales Coast services to the operator of the Holyhead - London service

That way you have the intercity and the "local" in one TOC, which has an incentive to promote the "local" services, an incentive to co-ordinate them with the "intercity" services and keep costs down.

The only problem with that is it'd mean certain people would have to abandon any ambitions of an "All Wales" franchise... maybe not a bad thing though.

In general I like the idea for south Wales, although west of Swansea might get ignored if you did that. However I think the Cambrian would fit better with London Midland (unless you mean that would be grouped in with ICWC too) or Great Western, and north Wales coast should have links to Manchester which would be TPE not ICWC (again unless you do some other franchise remapping at the same time).

 

[Eire Sprinter]

Further to the interesting issues raised regarding the night boat train ex Holyhead matter (post #118) I wonder could a very limited stop service be a possibility:

For instance, a train departing Holyhead around 02.00 and bar a stop at Bangor (useful for any returning uni-goers from Ireland) running non-stop to Crewe. Presumably such a train would reach Crewe a tad after 04.00 in good time for the first VT to Euston.

Another possibility to avoid security problems is to designate any/all intermediate station stops as set-down only.

Interestingly the current 01.48 Sundays-only Fishguard Harbour - Cardiff Central is set-down only at Whitland, Carmarthen and Llanelli.

 

[tbtc]

So basically, split like it was before 2001? (Except of course you've merged them with different franchises as all three have been significantly redrawn.)

Yeah - would love to see that

likewise with Northern Rail?
Cheshire/Lancashire/Cumbria - West Coast
S Yorks- Midland Main Line
rest of North - East Coast.

Would be great - I've advocated splitting the "Heaton" services to the East Coast TOC (as well as the Lincolnshire DMUs run by EMT) - would be much better to integrate routes like this.

I think the Cambrian would fit better with London Midland (unless you mean that would be grouped in with ICWC too)

LM run Wolverhampton - Birmingham and Birmingham - London, so do Virgin, either would "fit" the Cambrian services - but I've argued before that one TOC on the route through Coventry would be better

north Wales coast should have links to Manchester which would be TPE not ICWC (again unless you do some other franchise remapping at the same time).

Am not talking about withdrawing any services, just changing who runs some of them. North Wales to Manchester is a busy route, no need to change that, but would make more sense to have it run by the TOC running from Chester (and Crewe/ Warrington) to London. At the moment ATW have little incentive to co-ordinate with Virgin on the coastal route.

 

[Eagle]

Yeah - would love to see that

Of course a couple of routes are a bit ambiguous as to which you'd group them with, namely Cardiff–Manchester, Cardiff–Holyhead and Birmingham–Holyhead. And any decision you'd make would probably ruin some interworking somewhere.

(For the record, before 2001 the operators of those three were W&W, W&W and FNW respectively.)

 

[Rhydgaled]

Am not talking about withdrawing any services, just changing who runs some of them. North Wales to Manchester is a busy route, no need to change that, but would make more sense to have it run by the TOC running from Chester (and Crewe/ Warrington) to London. At the moment ATW have little incentive to co-ordinate with Virgin on the coastal route.

Would ICWC be able to run from Chester to Manchester though? The daft situation in south Wales with Carmarthen having through services to Manchester (very circuitous route) but not Bristol (which would be far more logical in my opinion) comes about from Bristol being outside the Wales & Borders franchise area does it not?

Of course a couple of routes are a bit ambiguous as to which you'd group them with, namely Cardiff–Manchester, Cardiff–Holyhead and Birmingham–Holyhead. And any decision you'd make would probably ruin some interworking somewhere.

Cambrians interwork with the Birmingham - Holyheads. However, I think a better thing to do would be to have all north Wales coast services (bar Y Gerallt Gymro and an opposite working) run to Crewe or Manchester (hourly to each) and have the trains from Birmingham/Cardiff to Holyhead terminate at Chester instead of going to Holyhead.

The Cambrian+Birmingham-Chester interworking would then fit either with LM or a Wales & West type TOC encompassing Great Western, Cambrian, Birmingham-Chester and south Wales-Manchester.

 

[jones_bangor]

However, I think a better thing to do would be to have all north Wales coast services (bar Y Gerallt Gymro and an opposite working) run to Crewe or Manchester (hourly to each) and have the trains from Birmingham/Cardiff to Holyhead terminate at Chester instead of going to Holyhead.

That makes little sense. There seems to be a wish to turn the clock back to the "good old days"....

We need faster services between North and South, I would personally like to see all Manchester train extend to Bangor / Holyhead also.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That way you have the intercity and the "local" in one TOC, which has an incentive to promote the "local" services, an incentive to co-ordinate them with the "intercity" services and keep costs down.

The only problem with that is it'd mean certain people would have to abandon any ambitions of an "All Wales" franchise... maybe not a bad thing though.

I think you're swimming against the tide there!

 

[Rhydgaled]

That makes little sense. There seems to be a wish to turn the clock back to the "good old days"....

We need faster services between North and South, I would personally like to see all Manchester train extend to Bangor / Holyhead also.

What makes little sense? The north-south trains I propose keeping are the faster ones, and stopping the Birmingham and Cardiff to Holyhead services at Chester allows all other north Wales services to run through from Manchester/Crewe, where demand is probably greater. To spell out my proposals again:

• Hourly Manchester - Holyhead
• Hourly Crewe - Llandudno
• 2-Hourly Birmingham - Chester
• 2-Hourly Cardiff - Chester stopper
• 2 per day each way Holyhead - Cardiff (Express)

You can swap Crewe and Manchester if you think Llandudno more deserving of through trains to MAN than Bangor/Holyhead, but I personally think it should be whichever gives the best use of stock (you could even do the following if it saves diagrams):

• Manchester - Holyhead - Crewe - Llandudno - Manchester or
• Manchester - Llandudno - Crewe - Holyhead - Manchester

 

[jones_bangor]

What makes little sense? The north-south trains I propose keeping are the faster ones, and stopping the Birmingham and Cardiff to Holyhead services at Chester allows all other north Wales services to run through from Manchester/Crewe, where demand is probably greater. To spell out my proposals again:

• Hourly Manchester - Holyhead
• Hourly Crewe - Llandudno
• 2-Hourly Birmingham - Chester
• 2-Hourly Cardiff - Chester stopper
• 2 per day each way Holyhead - Cardiff (Express)

You can swap Crewe and Manchester if you think Llandudno more deserving of through trains to MAN than Bangor/Holyhead, but I personally think it should be whichever gives the best use of stock (you could even do the following if it saves diagrams):

• Manchester - Holyhead - Crewe - Llandudno - Manchester or
• Manchester - Llandudno - Crewe - Holyhead - Manchester

The above doesn't take into account the service provided by Virgin WC which serves Crewe?

A huge loss to North Wales Coast was the diversion of Birmingham trains via the slow Wrexham - Shrewsbury route.

I see no advantage in reducing the North Wales - South Wales connectivity, if anything it needs to be increased. Anecdotally, the peak time services North from Cardiff are overcrowded and the ideologically driven decision by the now removed Transport Minister to cut the 16:15/16:21 service to Holyhead still needs to be ameliorated.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The above doesn't take into account the service provided by Virgin WC which serves Crewe?

I ommited ICWC services because I'm only talking about Wales & Borders services here.

A huge loss to North Wales Coast was the diversion of Birmingham trains via the slow Wrexham - Shrewsbury route.

Indeed, the Birmingham route is much slower via Wrexham, so much so that I think it is sometimes quicker to change twice (at Chester and Crewe), hence my suggestion of providing hourly through trains from north Wales to Crewe, reducing the number of changes on the faster route to Birmingham. There's already an hourly ATW Chester - Crewe shuttle of course, that would just be incorporated into Llandudno/Holyhead services. If the north Wales coast is electrified extending the Crewe service to Birmingham would probably be a good idea.

I see no advantage in reducing the North Wales - South Wales connectivity, if anything it needs to be increased.

The general consensus from the normal participants of the debates about north Wales on here is that there is more demand for trains to Manchester/Liverpool/Crewe (I assume for connections to Birmingham) from north Wales.

I would therefore assume that the majority of passengers on Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham services would change at Chester. In turn I would suggest that having these services seperate would allow better matching of 3-car class 175s to busier diagrams than 2-car 175s. Additionally, the requirement for Cambrian trains to be run using the class 158 fleet restricts diagraming flexibility of 158s. My diagram guestimates suggest that truncating the Birmingham to Holyheads at Chester would allow the Cambrian main line hourly service without locking any more 158s into diagrams which can only be covered by 158s. Basicly, dividing the services at Chester would, I think, improve diagraming flexibility.

Anecdotally, the peak time services North from Cardiff are overcrowded

I don't doubt it, but how many passengers are going beyond Chester? My proposals are based on current frequencies, with the addition of a second Holyhead-Cardiff express. If ATW had some more stock, perhaps 172s or 170s, I would suggest additional stoppers from Cardiff to Hereford/Shrewsbury, among other things.

the ideologically driven decision by the now removed Transport Minister to cut the 16:15/16:21 service to Holyhead still needs to be ameliorated.

Doesn't the 16:21 still run, albeit with a 175 rather than 3 mrk2s and a mrk3 and only to Chester instead of Holyhead?

 

[jones_bangor]

The general consensus from the normal participants of the debates about north Wales on here is that there is more demand for trains to Manchester/Liverpool/Crewe (I assume for connections to Birmingham) from north Wales.

I would therefore assume that the majority of passengers on Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham services would change at Chester. In turn I would suggest that having these services seperate would allow better matching of 3-car class 175s to busier diagrams than 2-car 175s. Additionally, the requirement for Cambrian trains to be run using the class 158 fleet restricts diagraming flexibility of 158s. My diagram guestimates suggest that truncating the Birmingham to Holyheads at Chester would allow the Cambrian main line hourly service without locking any more 158s into diagrams which can only be covered by 158s. Basicly, dividing the services at Chester would, I think, improve diagraming flexibility.

I don't doubt it, but how many passengers are going beyond Chester? My proposals are based on current frequencies, with the addition of a second Holyhead-Cardiff express. If ATW had some more stock, perhaps 172s or 170s, I would suggest additional stoppers from Cardiff to Hereford/Shrewsbury, among other things.

Doesn't the 16:21 still run, albeit with a 175 rather than 3 mrk2s and a mrk3 and only to Chester instead of Holyhead?

Chester is a popular destination for people from the North Wales Coast - shopping, working, studying, so the assumption that they all "change" for other destinations is flawed. I'm afraid that some of the other contributors have hidden agendas with regards this debate and wish to purport that there's little or no demand for North - South services in Wales, which simply ain't true!

I cannot see Arriva getting any more stock anytime soon.

Yes, the 16:21 runs to Chester, a rather pig-headed decision by the Minister in my view.....

Interestingly, on the trains I've caught from Cardiff northwards recently, the Holyhead services have been noticeably busier than the Manchester services (although those services are very crowded Swansea - Cardiff).

 

[Erniescooper]

The car park upgrade at Chester never happened (as you may know).
The plan against which Arriva was supposed to spend money did not get council planning permission.
The question at the ATW Wrexham event was, when will Chester have something better than a 3rd world car park? No answer.
To add insult to injury the west car park is constrained by the totally unused and dilapidated corridor to the Royal Mail depot.

This application http://http://pa.cheshirewestandchester.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=MCIHUZTE6V000 has been made and granted by Cheshire West council , is it the new ATW car park ?

 

[edwin_m]

Rightly or wrongly, control of ATW's franchise specification resides with the Welsh Government. Their priority has been to re-focus the network away from traditional service patterns east-west into England to cater more for north-south journeys within Wales. I think ATW has by and large done a good job at providing a timetable which attempts to meet these conflicting aspirations.

One consequence is that Wrexham, the largest population centre in north Wales IIRC, has a pretty decent service today. Since the Beeching era Wrexham hasn't been on an east-west route and hence was largely ignored by the railway.

 

[merlodlliw]

One consequence is that Wrexham, the largest population centre in north Wales IIRC, has a pretty decent service today. Since the Beeching era Wrexham hasn't been on an east-west route and hence was largely ignored by the railway.

You are correct about population, however it was not Beeching era that damaged the Wrexham railway, it was Clwyd CC & the Welsh Office when the key line was singled to Chester, I was with all respect under the impression all trains ran Chester/Birmingham East /West until ATW decided otherwise.Central trains in fairness gave us brand new trains and an hourly service on this route, Central is sadly missed, and also sadly missed on the Cambrian.

Bob

 

[Rhydgaled]

The general consensus from the normal participants of the debates about north Wales on here is that there is more demand for trains to Manchester/Liverpool/Crewe (I assume for connections to Birmingham) from north Wales.

I would therefore assume that the majority of passengers on Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham services would change at Chester. In turn I would suggest that having these services seperate would allow better matching of 3-car class 175s to busier diagrams than 2-car 175s. Additionally, the requirement for Cambrian trains to be run using the class 158 fleet restricts diagraming flexibility of 158s. My diagram guestimates suggest that truncating the Birmingham to Holyheads at Chester would allow the Cambrian main line hourly service without locking any more 158s into diagrams which can only be covered by 158s. Basicly, dividing the services at Chester would, I think, improve diagraming flexibility.

I don't doubt it, but how many passengers are going beyond Chester? My proposals are based on current frequencies, with the addition of a second Holyhead-Cardiff express. If ATW had some more stock, perhaps 172s or 170s, I would suggest additional stoppers from Cardiff to Hereford/Shrewsbury, among other things.

Doesn't the 16:21 still run, albeit with a 175 rather than 3 mrk2s and a mrk3 and only to Chester instead of Holyhead?

Chester is a popular destination for people from the North Wales Coast - shopping, working, studying, so the assumption that they all "change" for other destinations is flawed. I'm afraid that some of the other contributors have hidden agendas with regards this debate and wish to purport that there's little or no demand for North - South services in Wales, which simply ain't true!

Sorry, I made a mistake. I should have said more demand for north Wales to Manchester/Liverpool/Crewe than North Wales to Shrewsbury/Hereford/Newport/Cardiff. I don't deny Chester is an important destination, but I overlooked it on this occasion as all trains from north Wales on the existing network would serve it whether they are going to Cardiff or Crewe/Manchester.

As for there being little or no demand for travel between north and south Wales, I would say that there is demand. I wouldn't like to say whether the demand there is is 'little' or not, but even if the demand is quite large I suspect it is still less than demand for travel into places like Manchester.

Another factor is that the current rail route between north and south Wales is at a geographic disadvantage, roughly going round two sides of a square/rectangle rather than straight across. Some of the demand there is probably is lost to rail because of that.

I cannot see Arriva getting any more stock anytime soon.

Neither can I, unfortunately.

Interestingly, on the trains I've caught from Cardiff northwards recently, the Holyhead services have been noticeably busier than the Manchester services

Interesting, anyone care to back this up? Are many of these passengers going beyond Chester though?

 

[transmanche]

Central is sadly missed, and also sadly missed on the Cambrian.

Lord no. Unreliable Aberystwyth-Grimsby services? No thanks!

There's definitely a personal agenda here. Consistently saying that services should be split at Chester and claiming that's what the people want.

Well some people don't want that. My Mum travels regularly from Gobowen to Bangor and she's not alone. Lots of people love the convenient through services to/from North Wales.

She also travels (usually from Welshpool) to/from Aberystwyth regularly and she reckons the service is *much* better and *much* more reliable than it was before Arriva operated the route.

Personally, I think the idea of an 'All Wales' franchise (as well as an 'All Scotland' one) is a good idea - as it gives the appropriate devolved government more input into setting the service level they're willing to pay for.

And if England was ever to get regional government (or at least regional transport authorities), then the franchise areas should reflect that. (E.g. the North East governmental region would correspond roughly with the North Eastern part of Northern.) This would give us something more akin to the way that German Bundesländer deal with local and regional trains.

 

[merlodlliw]

Lord no. Unreliable Aberystwyth-Grimsby services? No thanks!

There's definitely a personal agenda here. Consistently saying that services should be split at Chester and claiming that's what the people want.

Well some people don't want that. My Mum travels regularly from Gobowen to Bangor and she's not alone. Lots of people love the convenient through services to/from North Wales.

She also travels (usually from Welshpool) to/from Aberystwyth regularly and she reckons the service is *much* better and *much* more reliable than it was before Arriva operated the route.

Personally, I think the idea of an 'All Wales' franchise (as well as an 'All Scotland' one) is a good idea - as it gives the appropriate devolved government more input into setting the service level they're willing to pay for.

And if England was ever to get regional government (or at least regional transport authorities), then the franchise areas should reflect that. (E.g. the North East governmental region would correspond roughly with the North Eastern part of Northern.) This would give us something more akin to the way that German Bundesländer deal with local and regional trains.

Before Central came along, Both Gobowen & Wrexham suffered one train every two hours, Central improved the service without question and put brand new trains on the line.
As for Chester, ATWs 2nd busiest managed station in England & Wales also having the most tocs of any ATW managed station as well, its not surprising forum members consider this to be the key hub.

As for the Cambrian I am sure Gareth will reply.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Before Central came along, Both Gobowen & Wrexham suffered one train every two hours, Central improved the service without question and put brand new trains on the line.
As for Chester, ATWs 2nd busiest managed station in England & Wales also having the most tocs of any ATW managed station as well, its not surprising forum members consider this to be the key hub.

As for the Cambrian I am sure Gareth will reply.

In Summer 2001 the Cambrian had brand new Class 170's on key trains from Aberystwyth there were 9 trains a day between Shrewsbury and Machynlleth (8 now) some Saturday trains were 5 car formations. Centrals management also had a positive attitude to service improvement. When the Central services were split to create the Wales and Border franchise in September 2001 punctuality nose dived as it became apparent incoming Cambrian services had no margin to recover to turn a round at Birmingham New St if even a slight delay occurred and Wolverhampton turnarounds became the norm we also became a 2 car dmu railway it was a backwards step. When the Wales and Border franchise was let in December 2003 ATW did nothing tangible to rectify the situation the 11 ex CT Class 158's were left to be run down as ATW knew they were handing them back when they got 100% of the Class 175 fleet. Thankfully Welsh Government funded another 2 Class 158's in 2007 and formation lengths increased again. It wasn't until the December 2008 extensions of services to Birmingham International that punctuality recovered on the Cambrian. The Cambrian suffered 7 long years of appalling punctuality because of how ill thought out the split to Wales and Borders was and the lethargy in doing anything about it combined with the curse of the no growth franchise.

Yes things now have improved especially with the Class 158 refurbishment but lets not forget ATW presided over 5 years Dec 03 to Dec 08 of sub standard performance on the ex Central Trains routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The above doesn't take into account the service provided by Virgin WC which serves Crewe?

A huge loss to North Wales Coast was the diversion of Birmingham trains via the slow Wrexham - Shrewsbury route.

I see no advantage in reducing the North Wales - South Wales connectivity, if anything it needs to be increased. Anecdotally, the peak time services North from Cardiff are overcrowded and the ideologically driven decision by the now removed Transport Minister to cut the 16:15/16:21 service to Holyhead still needs to be ameliorated.

Unfortunately the two aspirations of more north to south trains and electrifying the North Wales coast line are contradictory. More north to south trains whether they be DMU's or loco hauled will undermine the business case for the wires. If you get an hourly Holyhead to Cardiff service how do you justify wiring the coast? West of Llandudno Junction two thirds of trains would be diesels under the wires. There's plenty of candidates for electrification in Control Period 6 who will have a higher percentage of trains with electric traction.

Whats more important to the North Wales Coast a modern electrified railway or through trains to Cardiff? Its tough choices time, nothing to do with agendas or ideology just practicality's.

 

[tbtc]

I see no advantage in reducing the North Wales - South Wales connectivity, if anything it needs to be increased. Anecdotally, the peak time services North from Cardiff are overcrowded

From my experience (which may be more limited than yours), peak time services out of Cardiff are very busy in all directions. The fact that Abergavenny/ Cwmbran have no "local" services means that services from Cardiff on the Marches line are bound to be busy. Whether they are still so busy north of Hereford/ Shrewsbury is another story of course...

I think that giving Abergavenny/ Cwmbran a proper local service is more of a priority, but then that kind of smaller practical aim doesn't score big political points.

I think you're swimming against the tide there!

Am perfectly happy to, given the way that the tide appears to be going - only dead fish etc etc

Rightly or wrongly, control of ATW's franchise specification resides with the Welsh Government. Their priority has been to re-focus the network away from traditional service patterns east-west into England to cater more for north-south journeys within Wales

Precisely, the politicians have a priority that ignores decades of the railway tailoring services to actual public demand. The politicians know best?

Personally, I think the idea of an 'All Wales' franchise (as well as an 'All Scotland' one) is a good idea - as it gives the appropriate devolved government more input into setting the service level they're willing to pay for

The big differences being that...

• ScotRail run 95% of services in Scotland
• ScotRail only operate a handful of services over the border (a roughly bi-hourly 156 down the G&SW to Carlisle plus the overnight Sleepers)
• ScotRail run no services entirely out of Scotland
• ScotRail manage no stations outside Scotland
• ScotRail's franchise isn't referred to as "Scotland And Borders"

The geography of Wales means that there's a lot more "cross border" demand - which means an "All Wales" franchise wouldn't work.

Unfortunately the two aspirations of more north to south trains and electrifying the North Wales coast line are contradictory. More north to south trains whether they be DMU's or loco hauled will undermine the business case for the wires. If you get an hourly Holyhead to Cardiff service how do you justify wiring the coast? West of Llandudno Junction two thirds of trains would be diesels under the wires. There's plenty of candidates for electrification in Control Period 6 who will have a higher percentage of trains with electric traction.

Whats more important to the North Wales Coast a modern electrified railway or through trains to Cardiff? Its tough choices time, nothing to do with agendas or ideology just practicality's.

Agreed - do people on the coast want regular services to Cardiff or do they want electrification? Can't have it both ways. I'd like to see a politician admit this though.

 

[edwin_m]

Another option might be electrification of Crewe-Chester only, which would allow the hourly London train to become electric as well as the full-in shuttle which would go to another franchise (probably the successor to Northern). If the existing service pattern continues then the next stage would be Warrington to Llandudno. This would leave the Cardiff/Birmingham to Holyheads as diesels, running under the wires only between Chester and Junction (plus bits at the other ends of their routes).

The downside with either proposal is the threat to the London-Holyhead. A small fleet of diesels would still be needed to run this service, and timings would have to suit the diagramming of this sub-fleet rather than borrowing one of the larger VT Voyager fleet which allows services to be targeted better at the times of maximum demand. Probably DfT would want to split the service at Chester to reduce operational hassle and cost, and WG might agree because they don't see any reason to encourage more travel to England.

 

[headshot119]

Another option might be electrification of Crewe-Chester only, which would allow the hourly London train to become electric as well as the full-in shuttle which would go to another franchise (probably the successor to Northern). If the existing service pattern continues then the next stage would be Warrington to Llandudno. This would leave the Cardiff/Birmingham to Holyheads as diesels, running under the wires only between Chester and Junction (plus bits at the other ends of their routes).

The downside with either proposal is the threat to the London-Holyhead. A small fleet of diesels would still be needed to run this service, and timings would have to suit the diagramming of this sub-fleet rather than borrowing one of the larger VT Voyager fleet which allows services to be targeted better at the times of maximum demand. Probably DfT would want to split the service at Chester to reduce operational hassle and cost, and WG might agree because they don't see any reason to encourage more travel to England.

Remember that from the last timetable change we see Cardiff - Llandudnos, as well as Mahcester - Bangors.

And besides if they are going to wire Warrington - Llandudno via Chester, why not just extend it all the way to Holyhead?

 

[transmanche]

When the Central services were split to create the Wales and Border franchise in September 2001 punctuality nose dived as it became apparent incoming Cambrian services had no margin to recover to turn a round at Birmingham New St if even a slight delay occurred

Ah so what you're really saying is that the split was poorly planned by the mandarins (in the SRA?), with insufficient stock allocated to W&B in order to operate the franchise effectively.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Another option might be electrification of Crewe-Chester only, which would allow the hourly London train to become electric as well as the full-in shuttle which would go to another franchise (probably the successor to Northern). If the existing service pattern continues then the next stage would be Warrington to Llandudno. This would leave the Cardiff/Birmingham to Holyheads as diesels, running under the wires only between Chester and Junction (plus bits at the other ends of their routes).

The downside with either proposal is the threat to the London-Holyhead. A small fleet of diesels would still be needed to run this service, and timings would have to suit the diagramming of this sub-fleet rather than borrowing one of the larger VT Voyager fleet which allows services to be targeted better at the times of maximum demand. Probably DfT would want to split the service at Chester to reduce operational hassle and cost, and WG might agree because they don't see any reason to encourage more travel to England.

As I said tough choices I think the political antenna in N Wales will just about put through trains to London over through trains to Cardiff if push comes to shove. Though the default position will be to have the cake and eat it and argue for wires and through trains to Cardiff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah so what you're really saying is that the split was poorly planned by the mandarins (in the SRA?), with insufficient stock allocated to W&B in order to operate the franchise effectively.

CT ran trains across the west midlands so a Cambrian bound train was never dependent on an arrival from the cambrian being on time. There was insufficient turnaround times once the trains terminated at New St with a roughly train every 2 hrs tt, the standard pattern tt introduced in dec 05 didn't address the issue either. Formations were shorter after the split as well. The Cambrian is a good lesson in what happens when services are changed for political reasons railway operations and the passenger were ignored.

 

[jones_bangor]

Another factor is that the current rail route between north and south Wales is at a geographic disadvantage, roughly going round two sides of a square/rectangle rather than straight across. Some of the demand there is probably is lost to rail because of that.

Interesting, anyone care to back this up? Are many of these passengers going beyond Chester though?

I can't ever see North - South via the west coast (which of couurse would need Bangor-Caernarfon-Afonwen and Aberystwyth-Carmarthen reopening) becoming a reality any time soon...North Wales electrification is another matter, and the west route avoids any centres of population like Chester, Wrexham et al.

With regards "through passengers" - always a good number, but like any long distance routes, most people are on for portions of the full route.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Unfortunately the two aspirations of more north to south trains and electrifying the North Wales coast line are contradictory. More north to south trains whether they be DMU's or loco hauled will undermine the business case for the wires. If you get an hourly Holyhead to Cardiff service how do you justify wiring the coast? West of Llandudno Junction two thirds of trains would be diesels under the wires. There's plenty of candidates for electrification in Control Period 6 who will have a higher percentage of trains with electric traction.

Whats more important to the North Wales Coast a modern electrified railway or through trains to Cardiff? Its tough choices time, nothing to do with agendas or ideology just practicality's.

Oh yeah, that's the other reason for my suggested service pattern with north Wales trains going to Crewe/Manchester and trains from Birmingham/Cardiff via Wrexham terminating at Chester. Do it that way and wiring the north Wales coast is a much easier prospect than if you have to wire Cardiff/Birmingham - Wrexham - Chester too.

[*]ScotRail run no services entirely out of Scotland

It would be quite easy to make W&B contain no services entirely out of Wales though, run north Wales services through to Crewe as I suggested above and either give the Crewe-Shrewsbury to another TOC or extend it through to Cardiff or Swansea (the latter via HOWL).

And besides if they are going to wire Warrington - Llandudno via Chester, why not just extend it all the way to Holyhead?

Because most of ATW's hourly Holyhead service reverses at Chester and runs via Wrexham to Birmingham and Cardiff, which means these trains would be diesel and wouldn't be able to make use of the wires, unless you also wire Chester - Wrexham - Birmingham/Cardiff.

With regards "through passengers" - always a good number, but like any long distance routes, most people are on for portions of the full route.

Ok, so there's a good number of through passengers remaining on ATW trains through the reversal at Chester. I think the number of passengers remaining on the train through Chester would be even greater if north Wales trains ran to Crewe/Manchester rather than Cardiff/Birmingham(via Wrexham), and I'm sure others here would like to contest if you claim otherwise.

I can't ever see North - South via the west coast (which of couurse would need Bangor-Caernarfon-Afonwen and Aberystwyth-Carmarthen reopening) becoming a reality any time soon...

Neither do I, unfortunately. However, I don't actually see Aberystwyth - Carmarthen being part of a north-south route, and wouldn't suggest reopening Caernarfon-Afonwen at all.

My proposal for north-south within Wales (and it'd still require a change, due to electrification extent) is inspired in part by the HS2 Y-network proposals (and I'd suggest funding much of Wales' equivalent using the Barnet consequential from HS2) would be:

• Brand new electric route Merthyr-Brecon (ignore the original route, too curcuitous) - the electric bit
• Brecon - Builth Wells - Newtown (part new part-reopened)
• Welshpool - Oswestry - Gobowen reopening)
• Porthmadog - Caernarfon - Bangor (part new part-reopened, cutting a corner off)

Also required would be heavy upgrades to the Cambrian lines, with as much of the new track as possible being built for 90mph (the smae should apply to the Cambrian main line). Bangor - Cardiff (with one change) would probably be a similar journey time when compared to via Chester (with one change), but for intermediate journeys, say Cardiff - Builth Wells or Caernarfon - Brecon it would be transformational.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And besides if they are going to wire Warrington - Llandudno via Chester, why not just extend it all the way to Holyhead?

It costs about £2million a mile (double track route), based on the current NW project.
So that's:
£100m Warrington/Crewe-Chester,
£100m Chester-Llandudno
£80m Llandudno Jn-Holyhead
£60m Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton
£330m Chester-Shrewsbury-Newport plus Crewe-Shrewsbury
Plus resignalling/remodelling/line speed upgrades.

Interestingly, the cost of electrifying Warrington or Crewe to Chester is about the same as that for redoubling Chester-Wrexham.

 

[Eire Sprinter]

Does anyone know why the MX (Tue-Fri incl.) workings of the 01.50 Fishguard Harbour - Swansea now have a dwell time of 22 minutes in Carmarthen? (previously 3 minutes)

Arrives 02.41; departs 03.03. Runs correspondingly later to Swansea (arr. 03.48). Thankfully still makes the first HST.

 

[PHILIPE]

I have not seen the article myself nor sure of the newspaper, but a friend has told me that ATW have issued an apology for the Gowerton stops being omitted from both Section 1 and Section 3 Pocket Timetables on Heart of Wales services.