• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Presumably no one involved in running the railway in Wales in 2013-15 (ATW, DfT or Welsh Govt) was prepared to commit to coming up with the funding to get 150s and 158s PRM modified.
Although even in Spring 2017, the line coming out of TfW and Welsh Govt was that they expected sufficient, already PRM modified, cascaded rolling stock to be available from elsewhere in the UK for the new operator to use in 2019, avoiding the need to PRM modify any of the existing ATW fleet.
Reality didn't dawn until July 2017 when the 769s were ordered.

They would have had to receive 24 x 158s from somewhere but, if so, they would have to be ERTMS fitted for the Cambrian
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Its within Welsh Governments powers to determine what the price increase, freeze or decrease is on regulated fares in January (at least the fares 'owned by TfW" ) - now wouldn't it be a good gesture in way of apology to the rail users of Wales and the Borders to freeze or even decrease fares next year?
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,107
Location
North Wales
They would have had to receive 24 x 158s from somewhere but, if so, they would have to be ERTMS fitted for the Cambrian
The 158s need relatively little PRM work after their post-ERTMS refit. I think the expectation of cascaded stock was with regard to the more problematic 150 and Pacer fleets.
 

TrainAndBike

Member
Joined
24 Apr 2015
Messages
15
just an uninformed opinion, back five years ago the WAG was expecting the electrification of the Valley Lines to be complete. It would not have been sensible to invest in rolling stock that was due to be superceded. Of course there is no excuse after they realised electrification was not happening.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,892
Why didn't Porterbrook go ahead and do the required mods?
Because there was no way of re-couping the investment.

I love this idea that somehow the ROSCOs should just be funding things without any ability to get the cost back, let alone make any return on it. Business doesn't work like that.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,892
Presumably no one involved in running the railway in Wales in 2013-15 (ATW, DfT or Welsh Govt) was prepared to commit to coming up with the funding to get 150s and 158s PRM modified.
Although even in Spring 2017, the line coming out of TfW and Welsh Govt was that they expected sufficient, already PRM modified, cascaded rolling stock to be available from elsewhere in the UK for the new operator to use in 2019, avoiding the need to PRM modify any of the existing ATW fleet.
Reality didn't dawn until July 2017 when the 769s were ordered.
Where the hell did they expect such vehicles to come from? It was blindingly obvious that that was wishful thinking at the time. I'm afraid TfW and DfT have only themselves to blame.
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
135
Because Failing Grayling started dragging his feet the moment he got the keys to the DfT and was refusing to grant Welsh Govt the formal powers to award the franchise until he couldn't hold off any longer. Even now the powers to award the franchise haven't been officially devolved. The franchise was awarded by Welsh Govt on behalf of the DfT under an agency agreement.
Actually the last 2 sentences are not entirely true. Initially there was an official "Agency Agreement" dated 28 Sept. 2017 between WG and DfT under which WG procured the Franchise. However, the official Parliamentary records show that the "Devolution - Wales Transfer of Functions Order (Railways) Welsh Ministers" - which modifies the Railways Acts of 1993 and 2005 in a way which transfers powers over the W and B Franchise to Welsh Ministers - was laid before and approved by both Houses of Parliament and Welsh ministers in May of this year. On May 23rd last the Order was given the final seal of approval by the "Queen's Majesty in Counsel" advised by the Privy Council and it came into force officially 21 days later. This means that from 13 June 2018 full powers over the W and B franchise were indeed formally devolved to the Welsh ministers (with certain requirements and conditions relating to services which operate across the border into England imposed by the DfT). Such Transfer of Functions Orders or TFO's are the means by which Westminster transfers powers from UK ministers to Welsh ministers.
The situation is still complicated though because Welsh Ministers have now responsibility for procurement and management of the franchise, but in terms of "English portions of cross-border services" or "English-only services" (Crewe -Shrewsbury locals, Crewe-Chester) they do so in principle on behalf of DfT, but in terms of "Welsh-only" services or "Welsh portions of cross-border services" they have sole responsibility. Complicated? - you bet!
 
Last edited:

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
135
Would it be too cynical of me to suggest that this is now happening and being presented as such so people are happy with the tram-trains (which have no more capacity than a doubled up pacer or 150 and no toilets) come along as they have been used to this anyway! Probably, and I don't actually believe that, but you can bet some people will be thinking it!
You have raised a theme over which I have been pondering in recent days. Have commuters in the south Wales valleys, putting up with short formations and overcrowding at peak times, yet realised that before we get to the Promised Land of the South Wales metro, there will, after all this disruption, be further disruptions due to the extensive infrastructure work needed before all the stations, track and signalling are ready and adapted for the new bi-mode and and tri-mode trains yet to be built (and the general record of getting new trains into service on schedule in the uk is hardly inspiring)?
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
135
Talking of "spreading the pain", at least there are still trains running in the south Wales valleys, albeit with severe overcrowding in the rush hour. Can't help feeling sorry for people in rural areas such as West of Carmarthen (lines to Pembroke, Milford Haven and Fishguard and Goodwick) and in the Conwy Valley who currently have no train service at all but are shunted onto slow, tortuous late-running substitute buses. There are also real problems on the Cambrian Line and Wrexham -Wirral. Unless this is sorted quickly, people all over Wales will desert the trains and may not return, reversing the growth which has fuelled the highly ambitious plans for the future of the franchise, even throwing the case for such extensive plans into doubt.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,107
Location
North Wales
In the (singular) case of the Conwy Valley, the replacement bus service is genererally as fast or faster than the train service it replaces. It's not surprising that it was bustituted long before the others.

The Borderlands and Cambrian are another matter, though.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,107
Location
North Wales
Initially there was an official "Agency Agreement" dated 28 Sept. 2017 between WG and DfT under which WG procured the Franchise. However, the official Parliamentary records show that the "Devolution - Wales Transfer of Functions Order (Railways) Welsh Ministers" - which modifies the Railways Acts of 1993 and 2005 in a way which transfers powers over the W and B Franchise to Welsh Ministers - was laid before and approved by both Houses of Parliament and Welsh ministers in May of this year
Which does partially support the WG's claim of innocence: until that point, the responsibility for organising and bankrolling the PRM mods still lay at the DfT's door. (The WG does have track record of sometimes spending its own budget on supporting and supplementing the Arriva Franchise, though).
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and Transport this afternoon.

Video and transcript will appear here
http://www.senedd.assembly.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=401&MId=5368

relevant part of transcript below


Rhun ap Iorwerth AM 13:39:40

Copy To Clipboard Share To Facebook Share To Twitter Share To LinkedIn
Video


Diolch yn fawr.19

I'm sure you don't need me to update you on the situation on the railways in Wales this morning, but I'll run through some of the latest problems of Transport for Wales lines: Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury trains cancelled again; Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno, all trains replaced by a bus; Wrexham Central to Bidston, services affected; Swansea services to Pembroke Dock, Milford Haven and Fishguard disrupted; continued reduced services on Cardiff-Valleys lines, and so on. It's not acceptable. The first words on the statement on the front page of the Transport for Wales rail website today is, 'We apologise'. We still haven't heard that from Government. Would you like to take that opportunity now?20



13:40

Ken Skates AM 13:40:23

Copy To Clipboard Share To Facebook Share To Twitter Share To LinkedIn
Video
Well, TFW, as the managing and operator partner for Welsh Government, would like to apologise, but I think it also needs to be recognised that, in a very short space of time, Transport for Wales have worked incredibly hard to bring a number of trains back into use. Normally, we operate at about 80 per cent of the entire fleet. There are 127 trains in the fleet, so normally we'd be operating at around about 105, with the remaining trains in for servicing and maintenance. I can tell the Member that, as of this morning, the number was up to 96. We're therefore operating at around about 76 per cent. It will return to normal—back to the 80 per cent—within a few weeks, but I think it should also be noted that the cause of this problem—and I do appreciate passengers' patience during this difficult time—is that we inherited a fleet of trains that have been very poorly maintained, which we did not have full and proper access to ahead of inheriting them, and that, along with Storm Callum, and taking over the franchise in the autumn period, presented huge challenges for Transport for Wales and the operator and the delivery partner.21

We're also looking into the reasons why this issue affected Wales—the Wales and borders network—more than other parts of the UK. What we have found, and I think I said this in the Chamber last week, is that none of the rolling stock—none of the trains—on our franchise are operating with wheel-slide protection. This is significant because trains across the rest of the UK have been operating with that protection. What we have now learnt is that, potentially, the problems were worsened in Wales because in the absence of wheel-slide protection and as a consequence of a decision taken in 2016—and this is across the UK—to stop applying sand to rails, it meant that the traction on Welsh rail lines has been worse this autumn. So, that's been another significant contributing factor. 22

I met this morning with Sir Peter Hendy, the chair of Network Rail, and I also met, again, for the third time, with the chief executive officer of Transport for Wales. I received the latest update on services, and, as I say, there have been improvements—significant improvements—in the space of a week, with more than 10 per cent of the trains now having been brought back into use, but this remains a very challenging period due to the dreadful underinvestment in our rail network over the past 15 years.23


Rhun ap Iorwerth AM 13:43:02

Copy To Clipboard Share To Facebook Share To Twitter Share To LinkedIn
Video
Thank you very much, and we've heard that explanation and we know that there are problems with the trains. Let me ask you this question, though: as a partner in the delivery of rail services in Wales, when Arriva Trains Wales was the franchise holder, did Welsh Government take its eye off the ball in terms of not gauging and not monitoring properly the state of rail in Wales, if it's as bad as you now say it is?24


Ken Skates AM 13:43:26

Copy To Clipboard Share To Facebook Share To Twitter Share To LinkedIn
Video
Can I just, again, for the purpose of clarity, outline that there were very few—? First of all, the standards of the delivery of the services were too low, because the contract that was agreed 15 years ago was not fit for purpose, and so, essentially, Arriva Trains Wales had a lower bar to get over. We had no levers at our disposal, no powers and no way of compelling Arriva Trains Wales to up the bar to improve the standard of service, and that includes maintenance. So, in particular in the period leading up to the transfer of the franchise, there was no commercial incentive for Arriva Trains Wales to invest in maintenance over and above what was essential through law. If I can put it this way, it’s a bit like when you buy a used car. You buy a used car knowing that the previous owner may not have maintained it as well as you would have liked them to. And so, what you do is inspect it, and you will factor into it the possibility of having to get new brakes or new tyres, but you inspect it.25

The problem with the transfer of the franchise was that Transport for Wales were not given full and proper access to the entire fleet to be able to gauge the condition of it. However, what they did do was make sure that there were enough wheel sets in place. This is part and parcel of the problem right now. The wheel sets were flattened as a consequence of the lack of traction. So, they ordered a sufficient number of wheel sets, but it still takes time to take the trains off the rails and apply the new wheel sets to them.26


Rhun ap Iorwerth AM 13:44:55

Copy To Clipboard Share To Facebook Share To Twitter Share To LinkedIn
Video
You do provide these reasons, and I'm no rail engineer, so I can't question those details. What I can question though is: what monitoring, what scrutiny, was going on of what Arriva was doing when it was holding the franchise in Wales by Welsh Government? Will you be pursuing Arriva, for example, for the state of the trains as they were left to you as Transport for Wales? And, listen, I want Transport for Wales Rail to succeed. We all want a better rail service for Wales. But can you answer this question: were you ready for the transfer?27



13:45

Ken Skates AM 13:45:29

Copy To Clipboard Share To Facebook Share To Twitter Share To LinkedIn
Video
We were ready for the transfer as much as we could be ready. But I must press again the point that the contract that's been operating for the last 15 years was a dreadful contract, with a very low base and a very low bar for them to get over. We have improved the contract considerably this time around. Let me put it this way as well: had we not proceeded with the new franchise agreement, we would have had an extension to the Arriva Trains Wales agreement, so there wouldn't have been the commitment to £800 million of new rolling stock, of new trains; there wouldn't have been the commitment of £200 million to station improvements; we wouldn't be getting new trains in the next few years, and we wouldn't be seeing the Pacers removed next year; we wouldn't be seeing a huge increase in capacity in the coming years as well. Instead, what we would have had is that very low bar applied from the 2003 agreement.28

Monitoring did take place, and Arriva Trains Wales, based on the performance matrix, was reaching an acceptable standard, but that standard, in our view, was too low. And I'm on record time and time again saying that that contract dating back to 2003 was not fit for purpose. And now we are seeing the consequences of it. But, equally—equally—through the plans that are put in place, Transport for Wales, the operator and development partner, are addressing them at incredible speed, working 24/7 to make sure that as many trains get back on the rails as possible.

Question if Arriva didn't maintain the trains properly and didn't have wheelslip protection then why didn't this happen in 2017 , 2016 ,2015 etc
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,107
Location
North Wales
Question if Arriva didn't maintain the trains properly and didn't have wheelslip protection then why didn't this happen in 2017 , 2016 ,2015 etc
The quote you included states that applying sand to the rails was stopped because of "a decision taken in 2016". So presumably that explains 2015 and previous, (perhaps 2016 as well depending on timing). That leaves just one or two previous years, which I think is within the scope of seasonal variations.

With regard to restrictions on laying down sand, what exactly was this change of practice? Was it a general preventative treatment, or is this referring to any application of sand to rails?
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
The quote you included states that applying sand to the rails was stopped because of "a decision taken in 2016". So presumably that explains 2015 and previous, (perhaps 2016 as well depending on timing). That leaves just one or two previous years, which I think is within the scope of seasonal variations.

With regard to restrictions on laying down sand, what exactly was this change of practice? Was it a general preventative treatment, or is this referring to any application of sand to rails?

We've never had sand applied on the Cambrian we've had a water cannon train which does a big circuit covering down to Machynlleth, Hereford, Shrewsbury to Chester, Bidston and North Wales Coast.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H45018/2018/11/28/advanced

Theirs something covering SE Wales and the Valleys which starts its diagram in Bristol.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H41541/2018/11/28/advanced
 

CardiffKid

Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
1,081
Location
Cardiff
Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and Transport this afternoon.

Video and transcript will appear here
http://www.senedd.assembly.wales/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=401&MId=5368

Slightly disappointing more wasn't made of the rolling stock issue yesterday.

TfW are in front of the economy committee later today and the minister, Ken Skates, is up next week.

Committees tend to be where more detail is reviled as questions are more free flowing and unlike questions in Plenary there is no fix number of questions, the only constraint is the length of the meeting.
 

daikilo

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Messages
1,623
Slightly disappointing more wasn't made of the rolling stock issue yesterday.

TfW are in front of the economy committee later today and the minister, Ken Skates, is up next week.

Committees tend to be where more detail is reviled as questions are more free flowing and unlike questions in Plenary there is no fix number of questions, the only constraint is the length of the meeting.

question on rail starts at 9m45 in video and lasts about 7m30. Minister claims that use of sanding ceased in 2016 and that repairs are progressing well with 95 trains (76%) now available again v. 80% needed.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,107
Location
North Wales
We've never had sand applied on the Cambrian we've had a water cannon train which does a big circuit covering down to Machynlleth, Hereford, Shrewsbury to Chester, Bidston and North Wales Coast.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H45018/2018/11/28/advanced

Theirs something covering SE Wales and the Valleys which starts its diagram in Bristol.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H41541/2018/11/28/advanced
Yes, the water-based railhead treatment trains are what I'm familiar with up here.

Was this a reference to the cessation of sandite-based RHTTs (which I thought happened longer ago) or restrictions on the use of sanders on the DMUs themselves?
 

CardiffKid

Member
Joined
13 Feb 2011
Messages
1,081
Location
Cardiff
question on rail starts at 9m45 in video and lasts about 7m30. Minister claims that use of sanding ceased in 2016 and that repairs are progressing well with 95 trains (76%) now available again v. 80% needed.

I was amazed that in the questions without notice from spokespeople, only one party (Plaid) asked about rail, while the Conservatives asked about Sport and UKIP asked about Aston Martin. Both worthy topics, but given events and news coverage not what I would prioritize.
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
135
In the (singular) case of the Conwy Valley, the replacement bus service is genererally as fast or faster than the train service it replaces. It's not surprising that it was bustituted long before the others.

The Borderlands and Cambrian are another matter, though.
The danger is that local people will in that case be perfectly happy with a bus service permanently replacing trains on the Conwy valley route. So outside of the tourist season appeal of this scenic line linked with the Ffestiniog railway, the case for retaining and subsidising it year round could be brought into question. So even here, trains need to be re-introduced as soon as possible.
 

tomos dafis

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2018
Messages
135
relevant part of transcript below



Question if Arriva didn't maintain the trains properly and didn't have wheelslip protection then why didn't this happen in 2017 , 2016 ,2015 etc
Could it be that ATW, especially towards the end of their tenure, were more prepared to keep trains with wheel damage in service until a slot became available to repair them, instead of immediately removing them from service? Not an accusation - I have no evidence - just posing a hypothetical question. But I have ridden many times (in ATW days) from Merthyr to Cardiff on pacers and 150 sprinters exhibiting the characteristic clunk-clunk of wheel flats all the way.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,107
Location
North Wales
The danger is that local people will in that case be perfectly happy with a bus service permanently replacing trains on the Conwy valley route. So outside of the tourist season appeal of this scenic line linked with the Ffestiniog railway, the case for retaining and subsidising it year round could be brought into question. So even here, trains need to be re-introduced as soon as possible.
I see your point.

There's also the fact that scheduled bus services down the Conwy Valley have been lurching from crisis to crisis for several years, with three different operators throwing in the towel.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
James Price Head of TfW in a perhaps more balanced view than some of his political masters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-46374016
Transport bosses have said they do not know what suddenly caused so much damage to trains, disrupting journeys across the railways earlier this month.

There were "eight or nine" reasons that could be to blame, Mr Price said, "but the best experts in Europe cannot yet really assess exactly what went wrong".

769's in February?
n the meantime, Mr Price said he hoped TfW would be able to lease more trains from February next year to help with overcrowding.
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,490
Location
Powys
And as has been said on here previously, Gareth, drivers on the Cambrian I have spoken to have said that they cannot remember a year as bad as this for slipping problems, both braking and accelerating.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,107
Location
North Wales
There's interesting reading from Network Rail's statement to a recent stakeholder consultation on Rail Franchise and Metro Scrutiny:

Network Rail said:
With the change of operator coinciding with the challenging autumn season, seasonal preparedness was also a key area of focus and we worked closely with Transport for Wales to develop a comprehensive joint autumn plan. This included targeted vegetation management, a programme of railhead treatment at agreed priority sites and a significant investment in new train wheelsets to maximise fleet availability throughout the season.

The timing of Storm Callum, just ahead of mobilisation, provided an exceptional challenge. The storm was one of the most severe weather events in living memory for parts of Wales and our Route Control recorded 34 separate weather-related incidents over a 48-hour period. While the storm impacted fleet availability and meant closures on parts of the network, including the Heart of Wales line, track and train worked well together to minimise the impact on passengers wherever possible
and restore services as soon as it was safe to do so. Overall, our work to manage the impact of autumn is progressing well. Train performance is currently above target and we continue to monitor the weather closely, working proactively and completing additional railhead treatment where appropriate.

Note that the above is dated the 9th of November, so it was probably written just as the unit shortages started.

It's interested to note that the need to keep spare wheelsets in-house (which earlier posts indicate ATW didn't do) was already identified before the proverbial hit the fan. There was clearly some proactive action.

James Price Head of TfW in a perhaps more balanced view than some of his political masters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-46374016
From the article:
James Price said:
What no-one expected to happen is the number of wheel flats to occur on that particular weekend where I think we had nearly 20 units suddenly come out of service over the Saturday and Sunday.
With a sudden hit like that, no wonder they were caught short!
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,627
James Price Head of TfW in a perhaps more balanced view than some of his political masters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-46374016

The comment about Arriva is interesting though. Heard a few comments in various places of similar, but nothing from someone like this until now.
Under the previous operator Arriva, which handed over the Wales and Borders franchise to TfW in October, Mr Price said "the fleet as a whole was not maintained quite as well as it could have been".
"We were mostly aware of that. I think it's a bit worse than we thought actually," he added.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Keeping fingers crossed with the current storm conditions and the tendency for trees to fall down.
 

Cardiff123

Established Member
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,662
Location
South Wales
The comment about Arriva is interesting though. Heard a few comments in various places of similar, but nothing from someone like this until now.

The picture of an operator with an aging run down fleet not looking after it properly doesn't quite square with ATWs generally very good PPM figures though does it?

I think senior ATW managers who were responsible for maintenance should be called in to give evidence to the committee next time. If only to be given a right of reply against the accusations TfW are levelling against them (I'm not taking a 'side' here, I just think ATW should explain themselves and give their version of events, and especially explain how they managed to keep the fleet going every autumn without WSP fitted etc.)
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,998
I think senior ATW managers who were responsible for maintenance should be called in to give evidence to the committee next time. If only to be given a right of reply against the accusations TfW are levelling against them (I'm not taking a 'side' here, I just think ATW should explain themselves and give their version of events, and especially explain how they managed to keep the fleet going every autumn without WSP fitted etc.)

Would the managers who ran the ATW maintainance operation not be largely the same ones who now run the TfW Rail one?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top