ATW Drivers Strike

[A-driver]

Yep that's how the private sector and different companies work

I know. And that's what drives wages up-competition for employees. But the union are not making unreasonable demands by asking for pay and conditions in line with other TOCs.

 

[craigybagel]

I'll admit I'm not a driver but I would suspect the challenges faced by drivers at ATW (Depending on depot, there's the aforementioned intense valley diagrams, the longest section of continuous AB signalling in the country, an entirely new type of signalling not found at any other TOC in the country, loco and stock, large amounts of traction knowledge (I believe there's a link at Cardiff who sign 142,143,150,158,175,67,DVT) and the general challenges of running a mostly preprivitisation fleet in some very isolated areas) are more challenging than that posed by having an extra carriage on your train.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'll admit I'm not a driver but I would suspect the challenges faced by drivers at ATW (Depending on depot, there's the aforementioned intense valley diagrams, the longest section of continuous AB signalling in the country, an entirely new type of signalling not found at any other TOC in the country, loco and stock, large amounts of traction knowledge (I believe there's a link at Cardiff who sign 142,143,150,158,175,67,DVT) and the general challenges of running a mostly preprivitisation fleet in some very isolated areas) are more challenging than that posed by having an extra carriage on your train.

And 153s to add to the list.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know. And that's what drives wages up-competition for employees. But the union are not making unreasonable demands by asking for pay and conditions in line with other TOCs.

If you don't like the T&C's in the private sector the usual is answer is to go find another job.

 

[craigybagel]

And 153s to add to the list.

Cheers, knew I'd forgotten one.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'll admit I'm not a driver but I would suspect the challenges faced by drivers at ATW (Depending on depot, there's the aforementioned intense valley diagrams, the longest section of continuous AB signalling in the country, an entirely new type of signalling not found at any other TOC in the country, loco and stock, large amounts of traction knowledge (I believe there's a link at Cardiff who sign 142,143,150,158,175,67,DVT) and the general challenges of running a mostly preprivitisation fleet in some very isolated areas) are more challenging than that posed by having an extra carriage on your train.

Forgive me for being ignorant, and off-topic, but what is AB signalling?

 

[Wales_Commuter]

Forgive me for being ignorant, and off-topic, but what is AB signalling?

Absolute Block

 

[A-driver]

If you don't like the T&C's in the private sector the usual is answer is to go find another job.

Yes. But that doesn't make it right. Once again you are trying to drag us on the railway down to the level of other industries where the staff are walked all over and have absolutely no bargaining tools.

Why should the drivers have to look for employment elsewhere to allow the company to erode working conditions and pay? What's wrong with them standing up for themselves to better their lot?

Sorry but your posts are just coming over as bitter and jealous as you obviously don't have the ability stand up for yourself as rail staff do.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Yes. But that doesn't make it right. Once again you are trying to drag us on the railway down to the level of other industries where the staff are walked all over and have absolutely no bargaining tools.

Why should the drivers have to look for employment elsewhere to allow the company to erode working conditions and pay? What's wrong with them standing up for themselves to better their lot?

Sorry but your posts are just coming over as bitter and jealous as you obviously don't have the ability stand up for yourself as rail staff do.

Hear hear

 

[notadriver]

Sorry but your posts are just coming over as bitter and jealous as you obviously don't have the ability stand up for yourself as rail staff do.

Definitely bitter and jealous. The 'if you don't like it get another job' line has been used hundreds of times.

 

[theironroad]

Why the hell should drivers, guards and other rail staff stand by while neo-con governments and companies only interested in 'shareholder value' enter into a race to the bottom by devauling wages and terms and conditions.

Income and wealth inequality is already insidiously pervasive in the UK today. It is only by defending these values of decent pay and working conditions of working people that any attempt to chip away at the inequality cliff can be made. Unfettered capitalism for the sake of shareholder value is perverse.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Unfettered capitalism for the sake of shareholder value is perverse.

Whereas unfettered communism....(feel free to complete this well known phrase and saying in your own chosen words)

 

[A-driver]

Whereas unfettered communism....(feel free to complete this well known phrase and saying in your own chosen words)

You are the only one mentioning (continuously in almost all threads you comment in) communism. No one is supporting or even mentioning communism (except you repeatedly). Attacking capitalism dosnt equal supporting communism.

 

[HH]

Which still exist at some companies now. But they are a fairly minimal amount compared to the overall salary and don't really make much difference to the cost of living in different areas of the country.

But they weren't fairly minimal as a % of base pay 20 years ago.

In market conditions there will always exist differentials. A national rate benefits those who live in cheaper areas at the expense of those who live in more expensive ones. I cannot see why this is virtuous.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You are the only one mentioning (continuously in almost all threads you comment in) communism. No one is supporting or even mentioning communism (except you repeatedly). Attacking capitalism dosnt equal supporting communism.

Are we not allowed to comment on major comparitives when the occasion arises in threads. Answer me this, who was it who introduced capitalism into the argument on this thread, that led me to making my posting...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why the hell should drivers, guards and other rail staff stand by while neo-con governments and companies only interested in 'shareholder value' enter into a race to the bottom by devauling wages and terms and conditions.

Income and wealth inequality is already insidiously pervasive in the UK today. It is only by defending these values of decent pay and working conditions of working people that any attempt to chip away at the inequality cliff can be made. Unfettered capitalism for the sake of shareholder value is perverse.

In the sake of actual realism about "shareholder value", I wonder if you are aware that the trades union movement have an organisation known as the Trades Union Share Owners Group (TUSO) which is a coalition of funds (comprising the TUC, UNITE, UNISON and the International Transport Workers Federation) which currently has over £1.5 billion of assets on the capital markets.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Whereas unfettered communism....(feel free to complete this well known phrase and saying in your own chosen words)

Look mate, if you don't like what drivers and other railway staff get paid, then write to your MP and start a pressure group to get the wages lowered. If you don't like what you get paid, and think you deserve more workplace rights in addition, then start doing something about it

Oh, hang on, that's what ASLEF and all those other unions did ?

bloody communists, people should be prepared to work any hours, for any wage and be grateful 'tha hast a bloody job and a lump of bread 'n drippin to eat once a week, , 'tha knows lad, after all them capitalists need their mansions, fancy food and yachts and big motor cars much more than we working folk do

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Look mate, if you don't like what drivers and other railway staff get paid, then write to your MP and start a pressure group to get the wages lowered. If you don't like what you get paid, and think you deserve more workplace rights in addition, then start doing something about it

I am all for train drivers to be paid the correct high salary that they deserve, as I totally appreciate the responsibilities they take on with multitudes of passengers under their care and for ensuring fright trains arrive safely with their valuable loads.

I fear that you are confusing me with another forum member, as I have never expressed any views on the lowering of salaries on this website since I joined it in 2011.

With regard to your comment about "what I get paid", may I remind you that I retired as Senior Head of Projects at the consultancy as far back as 2010 and I am now 70 years of age. I express no regrets for being paid the extremely high salary that I was paid and my guidance of projects was reflective of the way that I chose to formulate which was rewarded accordingly with very large annual bonuses.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I am all for train drivers to be paid the correct high salary that they deserve, as I totally appreciate the responsibilities they take on with multitudes of passengers under their care and for ensuring fright trains arrive safely with their valuable loads.

I fear that you are confusing me with another forum member, as I have never expressed any views on the lowering of salaries on this website since I joined it in 2011.

With regard to your comment about "what I get paid", may I remind you that I retired as Senior Head of Projects at the consultancy as far back as 2010 and I am now 70 years of age. I express no regrets for being paid the extremely high salary that I was paid and my guidance of projects was reflective of the way that I chose to formulate which was rewarded accordingly with very large annual bonuses.

If I have mistaken you for another poster, then please accept my unfettered and genuine apologies

 

[Llanigraham]

It maybe is to do with the vast majority of their trains being considerably shorter formations and all non DOO compared to some other TOCs

Strikes me that your information about what ATW drivers do, other than DOO, is somewhat lacking!!

 

[theironroad]

Are we not allowed to comment on major comparitives when the occasion arises in threads. Answer me this, who was it who introduced capitalism into the argument on this thread, that led me to making my posting...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In the sake of actual realism about "shareholder value", I wonder if you are aware that the trades union movement have an organisation known as the Trades Union Share Owners Group (TUSO) which is a coalition of funds (comprising the TUC, UNITE, UNISON and the International Transport Workers Federation) which currently has over £1.5 billion of assets on the capital markets.

From my understanding, TUSO was set up to allow the TUC, and other affiliated unions who choose to, to adopt a coordinated approach, especially in voting at agms and on issues like directors pay and corporate social responsibility, thus allowing a better representation of trade union and workers views at board level.

This is a appropriate way of checking down the unfettered capitalism I mentioned, where the sole focus is on boosting profits at any cost to the workforce. I've never said capitalism should be abolished, this is about realising that unfettered, rampant capitalism that is only interested in market dynamics and fails to take into account wider social issues is at the very least unhealthy for society and often disastrous for workers.

 

[bnm]

Plus in the case of Wales, a FGW driver based at Cardiff will be lid the same salary as one based in London.

Nope.

LTV drivers on GWR get fractionally more than West drivers. HSS drivers more again.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102690/first_great_western/

 

[Mintona]

Nope.

LTV drivers on GWR get fractionally more than West drivers. HSS drivers more again.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102690/first_great_western/

At the moment...

And as an aside, there are no GWR drivers based at Cardiff.

 

[455driver]

If you don't like the T&C's in the private sector the usual is answer is to go find another job.

Uh excuse me but they do like their T&Cs, the trouble is ATW are trying to change them! :roll:

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Uh excuse me but they do like their T&Cs, the trouble is ATW are trying to change them! :roll:

and if we had no unions, and no ASLEF as drivers, we would have NO Ts and Cs in very short order.

I think a driver should be paid the same, wherever he drives, whatever he drives, however long he has been qualified and if the he, is in fact a she !

A driver should be a driver, and all should be equal, and equally paid, with equal conditions.

If A removable weighting allowance is paid in "more expensive to live areas", then so be it. That's a separate thing.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Uh excuse me but they do like their T&Cs, the trouble is ATW are trying to change them! :roll:

If there are genuine grievances then let's hear about them from ASLEF all that's been said are some generic uttering's that leaves the bystander none the wiser.

Stand on a street in Cardiff and ask the public about the merits and there understanding of the junior Docters dispute versus the ATW Drivers. I know which one will produce more than universal shrugging of shoulders! We all know that ASLEFs hierarchy doesn't like the result of the 1985 Miners strike and the last 9 general elections , 1993 Railways Act etc but that's life. Let's hear some articulation from them about there members interests and not have an impression that the a Brothers are fighting class war against the private companies and The Conservatives.

Show me where ASLEF are telling the public about the issues there members in Wales are feeling concerned about?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

and if we had no unions, and no ASLEF as drivers, we would have NO Ts and Cs in very short order.

I think a driver should be paid the same, wherever he drives, whatever he drives, however long he has been qualified and if the he, is in fact a she !

A driver should be a driver, and all should be equal, and equally paid, with equal conditions.

If A removable weighting allowance is paid in "more expensive to live areas", then so be it. That's a separate thing.

A fair enough point of view but where oh where does ASLEF state this? If the ATW dispute is about trying to maintain national terms let's hear!

 

[313103]

and if we had no unions, and no ASLEF as drivers, we would have NO Ts and Cs in very short order.

I think a driver should be paid the same, wherever he drives, whatever he drives, however long he has been qualified and if the he, is in fact a she !

A driver should be a driver, and all should be equal, and equally paid, with equal conditions.

I believe the same as you, however wasnt it Aslef who agreed different pay scales for there drivers based on seniority?

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I am a staunch supporter of aslef but I don't agree with every decision made by then since the days when loco s had no cabs

 

[FordFocus]

If there are genuine grievances then let's hear about them from ASLEF all that's been said are some generic uttering's that leaves the bystander none the wiser.

Stand on a street in Cardiff and ask the public about the merits and there understanding of the junior Docters dispute versus the ATW Drivers. I know which one will produce more than universal shrugging of shoulders! We all know that ASLEFs hierarchy doesn't like the result of the 1985 Miners strike and the last 9 general elections , 1993 Railways Act etc but that's life. Let's hear some articulation from them about there members interests and not have an impression that the a Brothers are fighting class war against the private companies and The Conservatives.

Show me where ASLEF are telling the public about the issues there members in Wales are feeling concerned about?

Funny enough I've just been on the ASLEF home page, the logical place to visit for an ASLEF media response and I found a link on the front page to this dispute. Shocking turn of events
http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/143526/aslef_to_re_ballot_arriva_trains_wales_drivers/

That should easily suffice for members of the public. Or do you want minute by minute detailed discussions of every meeting that took place including when people left to use the toilet?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Funny enough I've just been on the ASLEF home page, the logical place to visit for an ASLEF media response and I found a link on the front page to this dispute. Shocking turn of events
http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/143526/aslef_to_re_ballot_arriva_trains_wales_drivers/

That should easily suffice for members of the public. Or do you want minute by minute detailed discussions of every meeting that took place including when people left to use the toilet?

Beyond "length of shifts" which is meaningless without knowing how many hours per week worked and what length they were previously it actually says very little beyond rhetoric. It's like saying that the local supermarket has lengthend it's opening hours but without publishing what they were or now are.

 

[A-driver]

Beyond "length of shifts" which is meaningless without knowing how many hours per week worked and what length they were previously it actually says very little beyond rhetoric. It's like saying that the local supermarket has lengthend it's opening hours but without publishing what they were or now are.

ANY increase in working hours, no matter how much or little, had to be strongly opposed by a trade union and fully negotiated-at the start of negotiation, not the tail end of. TUs exist to better their members lot. An increase in work length certainly worsens their work/life balance and is a pay cut in real terms. This can NEVER be acceptable to a union.

People like you seem to forget the most basic point of a union which is of course to represent and get the best possible deal for its members. The detail of how much ATW wants to increase shift length is utterly irrelevant.