ATW 14th May timetable published

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Bob,

I welcome your comments, and also want more services not less - but your original point was about losing the connection from Wrexham to Shrewsbury for passengers getting off the VT service. I don't feel this is a major concern. Likewise, if the stock/train staff currently used for the very early morning Bank Holiday services can be better employed elsewhere by removing those services, then that will be a good thing...but if the services are simply withdrawn without replacement by a new service, that is not good!

TOTD

 

[merlodlliw]

Bob,

I welcome your comments, and also want more services not less - but your original point was about losing the connection from Wrexham to Shrewsbury for passengers getting off the VT service. I don't feel this is a major concern. Likewise, if the stock/train staff currently used for the very early morning Bank Holiday services can be better employed elsewhere by removing those services, then that will be a good thing...but if the services are simply withdrawn without replacement by a new service, that is not good!

TOTD

My understanding is the 150 unit currently stabled over night at Shrewsbury will not be used elsewhere, prior to the VT into Wrexham, the Bidston stock was sent 2X2 units from Chester & returned to Chester.
Has the Borderlands is only run 50% on bank holidays,ATW don't want to send a 150 to Wrexham & leave it in one of the refurbished bays for 12 hours or send it back. Has I have put up previous the VT is 95% local pax in & out of Chester. We shall see what ATW say as this is not the first time the line lost a Bank Holiday service, eg Wag2 which took the path of a stopper to Birmingham was likewise cancelled,after complaints it runs BHO Chester to Shrewsbury.


Bob

 

[tirphil]

That's because the trains don't connect! There's two trains in the AM that provide a good connection into Aberystwyth from the coast but none later in the day, in the opposite direction absolutely none at all.

1G07 0514 Aberystwyth - Birmingham International connects with 2J01 0530 Machynlleth - Barmouth service at Dyfi Junction. If only some thought went in to making connections throughout the day................

 

[Gareth Marston]

1G07 0514 Aberystwyth - Birmingham International connects with 2J01 0530 Machynlleth - Barmouth service at Dyfi Junction. If only some thought went in to making connections throughout the day................

Apologies though I suspect demand is low at that time of day!
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I have regularly travelled the line for about 10yrs now and only once have I seen a customer get off the train at Dyfi Junction. She was a student, got off, turned round to the guard and then got back on again.

I can only assume she had lower expectations of Aberystwyth than most!

ORR says the footfall was just under 2000 in 2010/2011 so there must be 6 or so a day using it- but is does see 35/40 trains so the chances of seeing them are not great..
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Hourly service looks pretty dead now, with reports that more of the ERTMS fitted DMUs are being used on Holyhead - Birmingham services. Unless ATW drop some of the strengthening along there, or somehow seperate their diagrams from Cambrians so different stock can be used, they aren't going to be able to source ERTMS units for a Cambrian hourly service.

It was always clear where the 2 extra units were going to come from - the 2 158's that were being used on the Cheltenham - Maesteg runs which were to become free once ATW got all the 150's back from FGW it sub leased to them. Which has now happened. However one unit is away being refurbished at all times and ATW are down two 175's - one on WAG2 and the Whitland crash unit at the moment.

Once refurb is complete and Whitland crash unit repaired and cancel lightly used WAG2........

 

[PHILIPE]

Apologies though I suspect demand is low at that time of day!
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ORR says the footfall was just under 2000 in 2010/2011 so there must be 6 or so a day using it- but is does see 35/40 trains so the chances of seeing them are not great..
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It was always clear where the 2 extra units were going to come from - the 2 158's that were being used on the Cheltenham - Maesteg runs which were to become free once ATW got all the 150's back from FGW it sub leased to them. Which has now happened. However one unit is away being refurbished at all times and ATW are down two 175's - one on WAG2 and the Whitland crash unit at the moment.

Once refurb is complete and Whitland crash unit repaired and cancel lightly used WAG2........

The "surplus" 150s were originally intended to strengthen certain peak services in the Cardiff Valleys up to 6 coaches after their arrival early 2008. Money was spent by WAG extending a number of platforms to accomodate but this seems to have been abandoned. In fact ATW leased the 5 X 150s to FGW. One has already been used to operate the additional Fishguards leaving 4 spare. There is no problem to cover additional work, i.e. Maestegs or doubling up Ebbw Vales to 4 carriages during Holiday times and Saturdays. Sometimes this is achieved by turning the XX35 arrivals in Cardiff straight back which, in actual practice, can go back Right Time in practice due to consistent early arrival but cannot be timed as such.

 

[D1009]

That's because the trains don't connect! There's two trains in the AM that provide a good connection into Aberystwyth from the coast but none later in the day, in the opposite direction absolutely none at all.

And that is because the coast service is timed to attach to or connect with trains going towards Shrewsbury, which is in turn because there are more passengers from the coast going towards Shrewsbury than Aber. If you can devise a better timetable that fits the single lines and crossing loops, does not significantly worsen any existing connections or journey times, fits in between other trains between Shrewsbury and Birmingham and requires no more rolling stock, I'd be interested to see it.
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I care, request stops mean not all trains have to call if the X in the timetable is removed by the toc, it may be windswept, but it is a junction,

Bob

Are you suggesting that because it is a request stop the TOC can remove it at will ? Can you quote me any other examples where this has happened ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

And that is because the coast service is timed to attach to or connect with trains going towards Shrewsbury, which is in turn because there are more passengers from the coast going towards Shrewsbury than Aber. If you can devise a better timetable that fits the single lines and crossing loops, does not significantly worsen any existing connections or journey times, fits in between other trains between Shrewsbury and Birmingham and requires no more rolling stock, I'd be interested to see it.
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Operational Convenience? Come now the railway is awash with shed loads more money than in BR days. Its very "railway" to spend loads of money doing up the station and then make it a request stop admittedly.

The much talked of hourly service to Aberystwyth will by default restore connections at Dyfi Junction. Even if there 2 additional peak AM eastbound and 2 additional PM westbound trains it would restore useful connections.

 

[D1009]

The much talked of hourly service to Aberystwyth will by default restore connections at Dyfi Junction. Even if there 2 additional peak AM eastbound and 2 additional PM westbound trains it would restore useful connections.

It would have been a request stop years ago were it not for the fact that all trains were supposed to stop anyway because of signalling constraints, or operational convenience if you prefer. I presume ETCS has now addressed this. It cold easily revert to being a mandatory stop if there were a significant increase in usage.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It was always clear where the 2 extra units were going to come from - the 2 158's that were being used on the Cheltenham - Maesteg runs which were to become free once ATW got all the 150's back from FGW it sub leased to them. Which has now happened. However one unit is away being refurbished at all times and ATW are down two 175's - one on WAG2 and the Whitland crash unit at the moment.

Once refurb is complete and Whitland crash unit repaired and cancel lightly used WAG2........

In the past I've been told they are more than 2 158 diagrams on Maesteg - Cheltenham, and that the 150 coming from Fishguard at 13:30 would be the only non-158 diagram on the route if WAG2 hadn't stolen a 175.

There are only 24 ERTMS fitted DMUs yes? Without any strengthening (so a single unit between Machynlleth and Aber-Y/Pwllheli, two units between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury and a single unit between Shrewsbury and Holyhead) I think the ERTMS-units-only curcuit requires 15 units. Now I am told twenty units will be required on that curcuit once the strengthening starts in May, all of which must be 158s. Yes, the 4 spare 150s can be put on Maestegs to release the 4 158s, and I guess the Chester - Crewe shuttle (which I think I've been told is a 158 on weekdays) can be replaced with a 150 too. That gets you the 20 158s you need for the strengthened Cambrians and Holyheads this May, but surely you have to leave at least 3 158s spare (for routine maintenance and such), which means there is only 1 ERTMS unit left over (and not until the refurb is complete), not enough for an hourly service all day over the full length of the line.

In short, the units that would have been moved from Maesteg to the Cambrian for the hourly service will moved, but to be used for lengthening Holyhead - Birmingham trains and forming the odd 6-car Cambrian service instead of increasing the frequency.

 

[jones_bangor]

Once refurb is complete and Whitland crash unit repaired and cancel lightly used WAG2........

I think that's classed as wishful thinking!!

The 175 will be freed up however once the 67 / DVTs come on.

 

[merlodlliw]

Are you suggesting that because it is a request stop the TOC can remove it at will ? Can you quote me any other examples where this has happened ?[/QUOTE]
D1009

ATW have imposed a request stop without any consultation, nothing was published in last months letter to stakeholders.
I am suggesting ATW can change train request stops at such stations to suit themselves,Llanfairfechan & Penmaenmawr became request stops only after consultation as did many more.

ATW has a duty to consult when a station is downgraded to request stop & the reasons for it.No procedural consultation has taken place.
we have four statutory rail consortia in Wales for such consultation, it is also my understanding if an objection is lodged by a member of the public ,ATW can not impose the request stop until that objection is heard. It is also my opinion that back door methods as used here at Dyfi & removal of services on The Chester/Shrewsbury line should be made public before it happens.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think that's classed as wishful thinking!!

The 175 will be freed up however once the 67 / DVTs come on.

Most people agree that if your having to have yet more north to south Wales trains then the timing of "WAG2" is sub optimal to the market. Lost of folk have suggested a "WAG3" but heading north in AM and south in PM.
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In the past I've been told they are more than 2 158 diagrams on Maesteg - Cheltenham, and that the 150 coming from Fishguard at 13:30 would be the only non-158 diagram on the route if WAG2 hadn't stolen a 175.

There are only 24 ERTMS fitted DMUs yes? Without any strengthening (so a single unit between Machynlleth and Aber-Y/Pwllheli, two units between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury and a single unit between Shrewsbury and Holyhead) I think the ERTMS-units-only curcuit requires 15 units. Now I am told twenty units will be required on that curcuit once the strengthening starts in May, all of which must be 158s. Yes, the 4 spare 150s can be put on Maestegs to release the 4 158s, and I guess the Chester - Crewe shuttle (which I think I've been told is a 158 on weekdays) can be replaced with a 150 too. That gets you the 20 158s you need for the strengthened Cambrians and Holyheads this May, but surely you have to leave at least 3 158s spare (for routine maintenance and such), which means there is only 1 ERTMS unit left over (and not until the refurb is complete), not enough for an hourly service all day over the full length of the line.

In short, the units that would have been moved from Maesteg to the Cambrian for the hourly service will moved, but to be used for lengthening Holyhead - Birmingham trains and forming the odd 6-car Cambrian service instead of increasing the frequency.

Sources at ATW have told me that the number of coast portions attaching/detaching at Machynlleth will only be a key 1 or 2 trains a day some coast diagrams will start/finish at Dyfi Jnc and connect there to the hourly Aberystwyth to Birmingham trains. You don't need to run 6 4 car & 1 6 car trains a day between Salop and Machynlleth if you have hourly.

Total units needed for self contained Cambrian coast (3) , 2 car Cambrian hourly west of Shrewsbury (4), 2 car 2 hourly Shrewsbury - Holyhead (3) and all ATW Shrewsbury- BHM INTL as 4 car (6) is just 16. That leaves another 8 158's to strengthen key trains west of Shrewsbury etc.

 

[jones_bangor]

Most people agree that if your having to have yet more north to south Wales trains then the timing of "WAG2" is sub optimal to the market. Lost of folk have suggested a "WAG3" but heading north in AM and south in PM.

I actually agree - and hope that happens.

 

[merlodlliw]

I actually agree - and hope that happens.

I also agree, the departure times of WAG2 are not suitable for purpose,the Dec 2012/13 timetable is supposed according to insiders to have dramatic changes,most people from Wrexham use either the 0530 or 0630 direct Cardiff trains when they travel South.

Bob

 

[D1009]

Sources at ATW have told me that the number of coast portions attaching/detaching at Machynlleth will only be a key 1 or 2 trains a day some coast diagrams will start/finish at Dyfi Jnc and connect there to the hourly Aberystwyth to Birmingham trains. You don't need to run 6 4 car & 1 6 car trains a day between Salop and Machynlleth if you have hourly.

Total units needed for self contained Cambrian coast (3) , 2 car Cambrian hourly west of Shrewsbury (4), 2 car 2 hourly Shrewsbury - Holyhead (3) and all ATW Shrewsbury- BHM INTL as 4 car (6) is just 16. That leaves another 8 158's to strengthen key trains west of Shrewsbury etc.

Ia this based on existing levels of patronage, or would it provide capacity for the growth that the hourly Cambrian service would generate ?
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ATW has a duty to consult when a station is downgraded to request stop & the reasons for it.No procedural consultation has taken place.
we have four statutory rail consortia in Wales for such consultation, it is also my understanding if an objection is lodged by a member of the public ,ATW can not impose the request stop until that objection is heard. It is also my opinion that back door methods as used here at Dyfi & removal of services on The Chester/Shrewsbury line should be made public before it happens.

Is that a duty or a legal obligation ? For places like Penmaenmawr or Llanfairfechan I can understand it, but for Dyfi you'd have difficulty finding users to consult.

 

[Tracky]

I note the 0425 HHD CDF on Saturdays now goes to MAN. I thought according to others who post on here everyone in North Wales wants to go to Cardiff ?

On Saturdays the 0425 off Holyhead is formed of two 175s. They divide at Chester with the leading unit forming the 0613 Manchester and the rear usnit forming the 0612 Cardiff Central. The timetable showing the train as a Manchester is more sensible as the rear unit is normally locked out and so in effect the used part of the train is a through service to Manchester.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Sources at ATW have told me that the number of coast portions attaching/detaching at Machynlleth will only be a key 1 or 2 trains a day some coast diagrams will start/finish at Dyfi Jnc and connect there to the hourly Aberystwyth to Birmingham trains. You don't need to run 6 4 car & 1 6 car trains a day between Salop and Machynlleth if you have hourly.

Total units needed for self contained Cambrian coast (3) , 2 car Cambrian hourly west of Shrewsbury (4), 2 car 2 hourly Shrewsbury - Holyhead (3) and all ATW Shrewsbury- BHM INTL as 4 car (6) is just 16. That leaves another 8 158's to strengthen key trains west of Shrewsbury etc.

Yes, there are plenty of 158s for the Cambrian mainline to have hourly if Shrewsbury Holyhead and Shrewsbury - Machynlleth are only 2-car. However, how many 4-car and 6-car trains will there be between Shrewsbury and Holyhead from May 14th? Those services probably need the strengthening, and the users wouldn't be happy to have their trains reduced back to 2-car. That's my concern, giving Shrewsbury - Holyhead longer trains from Birmingham means fewer ERTMS units available for the Cambrian lines unless you somehow stop Holyhead - Birminghams interworking with the Cambrian so that Holyhead - Birmingham can be worked by 4/5-car LHCS rakes or 3-car 175s.

Also, I've been on a short-formed Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth once (2-car instead of 4-car, was supposed to have a coast portion) and it wasn't fun Shrewsbury - Newtown (passenger numbers had thined out a bit after then) it really needs longer than 2-car trains.
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On Saturdays the 0425 off Holyhead is formed of two 175s. They divide at Chester with the leading unit forming the 0613 Manchester and the rear usnit forming the 0612 Cardiff Central. The timetable showing the train as a Manchester is more sensible as the rear unit is normally locked out and so in effect the used part of the train is a through service to Manchester.

I don't like the sound of that. Unlike a 158 (sensibly designed units those), portion working with a 175 is problematic if you arrive late and quickly jump onto the wrong portion. If you do that with a pair of 158s, you can just walk through into the correct portion while the train is in motion, with 175s you can't.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is that a duty or a legal obligation ? For places like Penmaenmawr or Llanfairfechan I can understand it, but for Dyfi you'd have difficulty finding users to consult.[/QUOTE] D1009./

ATW have a duty to consult with SWWITCH which the legally constituted joint board which covers Dyfi Junction, ATW also have a duty to consult with SARPA & The Cambrian Railways Partnership, plus post notices informing the public.
This duty must be carried out when a railway station is downgraded,a complaint can be made to either of the above or to passenger focus, if the toc fails to give notice or consult, of course a complaint can be made to ATW itself.
ATW have accepted this duty of consultation, but failed to carry it out.

ON another point,perhaps no one cares who uses Dyfi Junction,which makes me wonder why have ATW/NR erected passenger display screens at this station.

 

[D1009]

ATW have a duty to consult with SWWITCH which the legally constituted joint board which covers Dyfi Junction, ATW also have a duty to consult with SARPA & The Cambrian Railways Partnership, plus post notices informing the public.
This duty must be carried out when a railway station is downgraded,a complaint can be made to either of the above or to passenger focus, if the toc fails to give notice or consult, of course a complaint can be made to ATW itself.
ATW have accepted this duty of consultation, but failed to carry it out.

I understand the reasons for these procedures, but I think in the case of Dyfi it's a case of being awkward for the sake of it.
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ON another point,perhaps no one cares who uses Dyfi Junction,which makes me wonder why have ATW/NR erected passenger display screens at this station.

Probably so they can display safety information (see other thread).

 

[Tracky]

I don't like the sound of that.

It doesnt cause a problem, the rear unit is locked out of use.

 

[tirphil]

Gareth.

Demand for the connection I mentioned is non existant. The 2J01 0530 Machynlleth - Barmouth is almost without exception just the train crew on board at Dyfi. 2J00 0513 Machynlleth - Pwllheli rarely has a paying passenger either until Tywyn and that obviously calls at Barmouth too! I agree with your sentiment entirely.

The ORR figures for footfall astound me. As you may know I travel through Dyfi Junction very frequently with my work and I have only ever know two people to be picked up and one to be set down at that station

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, there are plenty of 158s for the Cambrian mainline to have hourly if Shrewsbury Holyhead and Shrewsbury - Machynlleth are only 2-car. However, how many 4-car and 6-car trains will there be between Shrewsbury and Holyhead from May 14th? Those services probably need the strengthening, and the users wouldn't be happy to have their trains reduced back to 2-car. That's my concern, giving Shrewsbury - Holyhead longer trains from Birmingham means fewer ERTMS units available for the Cambrian lines unless you somehow stop Holyhead - Birminghams interworking with the Cambrian so that Holyhead - Birmingham can be worked by 4/5-car LHCS rakes or 3-car 175s.

Also, I've been on a short-formed Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth once (2-car instead of 4-car, was supposed to have a coast portion) and it wasn't fun Shrewsbury - Newtown (passenger numbers had thined out a bit after then) it really needs longer than 2-car trains.
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I don't like the sound of that. Unlike a 158 (sensibly designed units those), portion working with a 175 is problematic if you arrive late and quickly jump onto the wrong portion. If you do that with a pair of 158s, you can just walk through into the correct portion while the train is in motion, with 175s you can't.

I was just illustrating that the 158 N Wales/Cambrian/Birmingham circuit will only need 16 out of 24 ATW 158's - all of whom are ertms fitted. The other 8 can cover maintenance or selected strengthening west of Shrewsbury in either direction. The margins are better than you think providing their not playing on HHD-CDF or Manchester/CDF diagrams.

Your overcrowded 2 car on the Cambrian experience would be less likely to happen if the hour before and hour after there was a service and not 2 hr gaps.

Generally speaking the 0730 and 0930 from Aberystwyth tend to be the most busy England bound trains on a regular basis which have coast portions on. I think the rest of the 14 trains if hourly would be OK at 2 car. That still gives an increase in seats per day available.
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Gareth.

Demand for the connection I mentioned is non existant. The 2J01 0530 Machynlleth - Barmouth is almost without exception just the train crew on board at Dyfi. 2J00 0513 Machynlleth - Pwllheli rarely has a paying passenger either until Tywyn and that obviously calls at Barmouth too! I agree with your sentiment entirely.

The ORR figures for footfall astound me. As you may know I travel through Dyfi Junction very frequently with my work and I have only ever know two people to be picked up and one to be set down at that station

A lot of the early morning/late night Cambrian service trains are little more than ecs moves anyway. i.e 0435 Mach to Aber. BR stopped stabling DMU's at Aber overnight in 1982, they also closed the signal box and took out one of the platform roads. Withdrew the daily pick up goods, took out Cemmaes Rd loop that year.

 

[D1009]

Does no-one connect off 2G20 0629 Pwllheli - Machynlleth on to 1J03 0625 Birmingham - Aberystwyth, which is the only connection which looks as though it might be of use to someone ? I know there's no decent return service.

 

[merlodlliw]

I understand the reasons for these procedures, but I think in the case of Dyfi it's a case of being awkward for the sake of it.

If that's your opinion OK, but the new timetable showed up three areas of concern,downgrading & loss of two Bank Holiday services, all three should have been up for consultation, its not just now ATW have made those decisions.
Two of them are in my patch, Dyfi is in Gareths patch who spotted it first.
It will be interesting to see what ATW come back with.


Bob

 

[tirphil]

Does no-one connect off 2G20 0629 Pwllheli - Machynlleth on to 1J03 0625 Birmingham - Aberystwyth, which is the only connection which looks as though it might be of use to someone ? I know there's no decent return service.

Not to my knowledge. 2G20 is booked Pwllheli traincrew and 1J03 is usually the same Pwllheli dvr (with a Salop guard) ex Mach. Anyone using Dyfi Junction as a connecting point would soon become a messroom talking point.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not to my knowledge. 2G20 is booked Pwllheli traincrew and 1J03 is usually the same Pwllheli dvr (with a Salop guard) ex Mach. Anyone using Dyfi Junction as a connecting point would soon become a messroom talking point.

When I was working in Mach in Summer 2008 I went with a colleague who kept a rowing boat on a grass embankment the Aber side of Glandyfi Station to re right it after a high tide one evening after work. Afterward he drove up the track to Dyfi Jnc and dropped me off there. I was going to get the 1730 ex Abr (or 1530 ish ex Pwllheli) whichever appeared first. Much to my surprise a women also appeared after being dropped off by car then 2 middle class English blokes on mountain bikes appeared covered in mud. I got talking to them and they were knackered having rid 40 odd miles that day and had a hotel booked in Machynlleth. It was only after they got on the Pwllheli train that they said its was the Plas Dolguog and I broke the news it was another 2/3 miles cycle from Mach station - though the train goes past the bottom of it. The conductor didn't appear.

I offered to pay the single from Dyfi Jnc to Mach to the conductor off the Aberystwyth portion after the units joined up at Mach but was told not to worry "as i was a regular".

 

[jones_bangor]

I offered to pay the single from Dyfi Jnc to Mach to the conductor off the Aberystwyth portion after the units joined up at Mach but was told not to worry "as i was a regular".

I sense fare collection has always been a rather pragmatic practice on the Cambrian...my late Grandmother used to regularly travel Machynlleth to Portmadog - Pwllheli in the 1980s / 90 with no sign of ticket collectors!! Somewhat, stricter nowadays of course!!

 

[Greenback]

I sense fare collection has always been a rather pragmatic practice on the Cambrian...my late Grandmother used to regularly travel Machynlleth to Portmadog - Pwllheli in the 1980s / 90 with no sign of ticket collectors!! Somewhat, stricter nowadays of course!!

I can only speak from my own personal experience when I lioved in the are in 1994-1995, but ticket checks were very regular on the Coast line then. As soon as you got on at a station the guard came looking for you, except for the school trains and one notable occasion when the ticket machine had failed and an announcement was made

I have to say it was the same when we used the line again during a holiday in 2009. All of the train crew were very friendly and very efficient in selling us tickets!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I can only speak from my own personal experience when I lioved in the are in 1994-1995, but ticket checks were very regular on the Coast line then. As soon as you got on at a station the guard came looking for you, except for the school trains and one notable occasion when the ticket machine had failed and an announcement was made

I have to say it was the same when we used the line again during a holiday in 2009. All of the train crew were very friendly and very efficient in selling us tickets!

On the whole the Mach based conductors are very good, its usually the odd English conductor (Crewe or Salop) that works an evening service down to Machynlleth and back that does the old hide in the rear cab trick.

 

[Penmorfa]

I can only speak from my own personal experience when I lioved in the are in 1994-1995, but ticket checks were very regular on the Coast line then. As soon as you got on at a station the guard came looking for you, except for the school trains and one notable occasion when the ticket machine had failed and an announcement was made

I have to say it was the same when we used the line again during a holiday in 2009. All of the train crew were very friendly and very efficient in selling us tickets!

During the summer months it was the practice to have two people on ticket checking/issuing duties. I don't know if this is still the case.