Atherton line progress or regression.

[Philip]

Is the Atherton line an example of a principle railway route open today which is inferior to how it was 60-70 years ago? In most cases it is the other way round, but in the case of Atherton line, it used to carry long distance services in its 4-track layout.
Nowadays it only carries local traffic, reduced to 2 tracks and the linespeed is only 50mph. Was the quality of the rail better when it handled long distance services or has the signalling regressed? And was there a more frequent service than there is now?

 

[childwallblues]

Is the Atherton line an example of a principle railway route open today which is inferior to how it was 60-70 years ago? In most cases it is the other way round, but in the case of Atherton line, it used to carry long distance services in its 4-track layout. Nowadays it only carries local traffic, reduced to 2 tracks and the linespeed is only 50mph. Was the quality of the rail better when it handled long distance services or has the signalling regressed? And was there a more frequent service than there is now?

The Atherton Line was very important up to probably the 1960s. It was the mainline of the old Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway between Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[edwin_m]

It was one of three principal routes between Liverpool and Manchester, which might have made sense when the L&Y, LNWR and CLC were competing for the traffic. Probably inevitable that rationalisation would happen, and the Atherton route had the disadvantage that keeping it would have meant keeping Liverpool Exchange or doing something fairly drastic to run into Lime Street instead.

I guess the logic was to retain the Chat Moss route as the main through line which could run via either station in Manchester and had useful connections to the WCML, and to keep the CLC primarily to serve Warrington. The Atherton route served Wigan, but only by a rather tortuous deviation, and Wigan had reasonable alternative routes to both Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a bit like the Merseyrail Ormskirk line in once being a mainline but no more, though sadly its modern day service isn't as good. Not better, not worse, just different?

 

[WibbleWobble]

Looking at timetables available on Timetable World, the service back in the 1960s was terrible in comparison to what is available now (well, certainly in 1965!).

Service was confined to mainly to the peaks with a daytime service during more of the day at weekends - looking at the footnotes, this was mainly in the summer for holiday traffic to/from Southport and Blackpool.

It had improved by the 1980s where an off-peak service did run, albeit at a paltry every 2 hours, and 1-2 trains per hour in the peaks.

 

[507020]

Is the Atherton line an example of a principle railway route open today which is inferior to how it was 60-70 years ago? In most cases it is the other way round, but in the case of Atherton line, it used to carry long distance services in its 4-track layout. Nowadays it only carries local traffic, reduced to 2 tracks and the linespeed is only 50mph. Was the quality of the rail better when it handled long distance services or has the signalling regressed? And was there a more frequent service than there is now?

I think it’s fairly obvious that the Atherton line aka the L&YR Pendleton and Hindley cutoff provided a vastly superior service as a 4 track main line, with all the capacity offered, when it carried many non-stop expresses to Liverpool Exchange and Southport, taking barely longer than half an hour from Victoria and very much freight on the slow lines in addition to some local stopping traffic, but that’s what the DfT and Beeching sympathisers don’t want you to know.

Given that it was designed and built as 4 tracks from the start, something very rare indeed, it doesn’t really function with only 2 tracks. I suspect the 50mph line speed has not been increased so as to force trains to take the same amount of time as those taking the longer Bolton route at 75mph, which really defeats the object.

To rub even more salt into the wound, the present signalling has very few block sections, all of which are quite long. The lack of capacity on the Atherton line as well as in Manchester itself forces Southport and Kirkby serves to be tacked onto the residual slow Atherton paths, extending journey times to quite unacceptable levels, more than double what it used to take.

It’s very interesting to see maps of the complex of sidings along the line, including those serving Peelwood Colliery, but of course all gone now. Not to mention the Westwood Park, Dobbs Brow, Hilton House or Agecroft and Brindle Heath lines that all fed into the Atherton.

Only last week I learnt of the proposals made by Henry Eoghan O’Brien, Chief Electrical Engineer of the L&YR at Southport 1903-09, for blanket electrification of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway to be extended from Southport to Goose Hill, Doncaster and Goole including all branches and sidings on the basis that it was the most densely trafficked system of lines in Britain and therefore likely the world.

This suggestion led to his dismissal by the directors of the LMS in 1924 and the fast lines were lifted after closure in 1965, but just imagine all 4 tracks electrified with third rail expresses running on the Atherton to all destinations like on the Southern.

It's a bit like the Merseyrail Ormskirk line in once being a mainline but no more, though sadly its modern day service isn't as good. Not better, not worse, just different?

The Ormskirk electric service has at least survived in tact, unlike the expresses via Ormskirk or Atherton, or the electric service to Crossens.

Looking at timetables available on Timetable World, the service back in the 1960s was terrible in comparison to what is available now.

In what way could it possibly have been terrible while the full 4 track alignment was open before 1965? Were journey times from Southport to Victoria under an hour? That’s better service than now.

 

[yorksrob]

It's not a bad service from the main stations - the through service to Leeds is particularly handy.

It's got a Sunday service as well now, which it didn't have when I started using it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not a bad service from the main stations - the through service to Leeds is particularly handy.

It's got a Sunday service as well now, which it didn't have when I started using it.

The lack of Sunday service was bizarre - that's like if the Merseyrail Ormskirk line had no Sunday service. It's an urban commuter route!

Mind you there are/were many such inconsistencies in Greater Manchester. Might be fixed now, but Marple to Manchester in the 90s was 3tph weekdays/Saturdays and 0.5tph Sundays. This is just silly.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's got a Sunday service as well now, which it didn't have when I started using it.

Yes that was certainly quite a pain, although I don't remember the lack of it well, I just remember that it was lacking.
I do remember after the Kirkby services started running further they did go to Clitheroe for a brief bit.

 

[yorksrob]

The lack of Sunday service was bizarre - that's like if the Merseyrail Ormskirk line had no Sunday service. It's an urban commuter route!

Mind you there are/were many such inconsistencies in Greater Manchester. Might be fixed now, but Marple to Manchester in the 90s was 3tph weekdays/Saturdays and 0.5tph Sundays. This is just silly.

Yes that was certainly quite a pain, although I don't remember the lack of it well, I just remember that it was lacking.
I do remember after the Kirkby services started running further they did go to Clitheroe for a brief bit.

Indeed - I assumed some quirk of local funding. It was a pain having to get to Bolton on a Sunday morning.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It was a pain having to get to Bolton on a Sunday morning.

It's very nice to have perfectly consistent (Except for the one chased by the freight) half-hourly service on the line throughout weekdays.
And I find that they have pretty good punctuality as part of my commute records. (especially since the Dec 22 timetable)
In terms of service over the years I think they've progressed (Although I definitely can't speak for the 20th Century.)

There used to be many more 2 cars and now it's almost entirely 3s and 4s except for occasional short forms.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2023 ==

Leaning more towards the original topic, why wasn't the speed raised to 70 alongside Southport, and what could be done to increase the speed limit now?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Leaning more towards the original topic, why wasn't the speed raised to 70 alongside Southport, and what could be done to increase the speed limit now?

Historically the linespeed was 70 but wear and tear eventually forced a reduction to 50. When the rails were replaced a few years ago the higher limit could have been restored but I gather there was disagreement about funding the additional maintenance required. Ironic that the line onwards to Southport has always been 70 despite the track at one time being just as rough as on the Atherton line. I suspect there may have been a touch of planning blight involved given the regular suggestions that the Atherton line could be added to the Metrolink network at some point.

That same blight may also explain the stagnation of signalling. Although the manual boxes at Walkden and Atherton were replaced, meaning an end to their semaphores, the signals were largely left in the same locations and no additional sections were created. Of course those replacement signals are of the modular type meaning that the distants could become 3-aspect signals with the addition of the requisite train detection kit.

As for service levels pre-pandemic there was an aspiration on the part of TfGM to have 4tph all day but the signalling makes it really difficult to fit around other service patterns at Salford Crescent. But passenger growth on the route during the 2010s was very strong so pressure for improved frequency may build again in the future. Of course it is not part of any long-distance route so inevitably will remain something of a cinderella route within the GM network.

 

[The Planner]

Its down to money, and if there wasnt a requirement for whatever reason to provide something else to deliver a particular quantum of trains or service level then its a renewal and not an enhancement. Different funding pots.

 

[yorksrob]

Historically the linespeed was 70 but wear and tear eventually forced a reduction to 50. When the rails were replaced a few years ago the higher limit could have been restored but I gather there was disagreement about funding the additional maintenance required. Ironic that the line onwards to Southport has always been 70 despite the track at one time being just as rough as on the Atherton line. I suspect there may have been a touch of planning blight involved given the regular suggestions that the Atherton line could be added to the Metrolink network at some point.

That same blight may also explain the stagnation of signalling. Although the manual boxes at Walkden and Atherton were replaced, meaning an end to their semaphores, the signals were largely left in the same locations and no additional sections were created. Of course those replacement signals are of the modular type meaning that the distants could become 3-aspect signals with the addition of the requisite train detection kit.

As for service levels pre-pandemic there was an aspiration on the part of TfGM to have 4tph all day but the signalling makes it really difficult to fit around other service patterns at Salford Crescent. But passenger growth on the route during the 2010s was very strong so pressure for improved frequency may build again in the future. Of course it is not part of any long-distance route so inevitably will remain something of a cinderella route within the GM network.

Manchester - Southport and Wigan - Leeds seem long distance enough to me. There seems to be a tendancy to talk it into a lower quality route than it is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester - Southport and Wigan - Leeds seem long distance enough to me. There seems to be a tendancy to talk it into a lower quality route than it is.

Southports now run via Bolton (though post-wiring this may change again).

The Atherton line is like Merseyrail but diesel, or if you prefer like the Birmingham Snow Hill Lines; primarily a commuter route into Manchester. Yes the Kirkby is tagged onto it but that's to make serving a one man, dog and bicycle branch line a bit less hopelessly uneconomic and make it vaguely more useful.

Services run across Manchester for operational convenience; Wigan-Leeds won't be a massive flow, almost everyone is headed for Manchester. Plus if TPE wasn't so awful, it'd be quicker to change at Vic for a fast Leeds.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Plus if TPE wasn't so awful, it'd be quicker to change at Vic for a fast Leeds.

In the past I've done that change, and both times TPE have delayed me enough it'd've been faster for me to get the train all the way through
(I wanted to ride an 802 tho so I still used TPE)
On the way back I ran up to the bridge before realising the train isn't near just yet (it was about 2 minutes behind)

 

[507020]

The lack of Sunday service was bizarre - that's like if the Merseyrail Ormskirk line had no Sunday service. It's an urban commuter route!

Manchester - Southport and Wigan - Leeds seem long distance enough to me. There seems to be a tendancy to talk it into a lower quality route than it is.

It really isn’t an urban commuter route, nor is it a low quality route of any kind. It is primarily a high speed express main line, with local stopping traffic only tertiary to the (now obsolete) coal traffic.

Stripped of all but it’s least important traffic, leaving only a half hourly all stops Sprinter, with the infrastructure cut to the bone, of course the current urban commuter service is quite poor, but that’s what you get not only from a lack of investment, but active destruction.

Southports now run via Bolton (though post-wiring this may change again).

The Atherton line is like Merseyrail but diesel, or if you prefer like the Birmingham Snow Hill Lines; primarily a commuter route into Manchester. Yes the Kirkby is tagged onto it but that's to make serving a one man, dog and bicycle branch line a bit less hopelessly uneconomic and make it vaguely more useful.

Services run across Manchester for operational convenience; Wigan-Leeds won't be a massive flow, almost everyone is headed for Manchester. Plus if TPE wasn't so awful, it'd be quicker to change at Vic for a fast Leeds.

Given that much of Merseyrail originated from other lines on the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway of the same character as the Atherton, of course that’s what it’s like. The lines operated by Merseyrail are the ones it’s modelled off!

But of course Kirkby is not a branch line. It is the same Lancashire and Yorkshire Main Line as the Atherton and the line through Todmorden and Hebden Bridge. It’s going begging for some Port of Liverpool freight, but there’s no capacity for it beyond Wigan because of the state of the Atherton and Victoria.

I’d never change at Victoria for Leeds. If the train from Southport or Wigan is more than about 5 minutes late, you’ve got too little time to run up and down the footbridge and still end up missing it. The best connection is at Salford Crescent from the Oxford Road service (previously Alderley Edge) on the same platform, but I will not change at Salford Crescent in any other direction.

 

[yorksrob]

Southports now run via Bolton (though post-wiring this may change again).

The Atherton line is like Merseyrail but diesel, or if you prefer like the Birmingham Snow Hill Lines; primarily a commuter route into Manchester. Yes the Kirkby is tagged onto it but that's to make serving a one man, dog and bicycle branch line a bit less hopelessly uneconomic and make it vaguely more useful.

Service run across Manchester for operational convenience; Wigan-Leeds won't be a massive flow, almost everyone is headed for Manchester. Plus if TPE wasn't so awful, it'd be quicker to change at Vic for a fast Leeds.

I daresay that there are also people travelling between the towns on either side as well.

The route is a useful link in the railnetwork which is both well used and well served.

 

[scrapy]

The 50mph speed limit isn't really an issue given the frequent stops on the line. Increasing to 70mph would have negligible benefits on timings especially if proposed stations at Dobb Brow and Little Hulton come to fruition.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The 50mph speed limit isn't really an issue given the frequent stops on the line.

50 is very frequently hit, Atherton - Walkden and Swinton - Salford Crescent all spend a good bit of time at 50.

especially if proposed stations at Dobb Brow and Little Hulton come to fruition.

Proposals mean nothing until there's actual plans.

 

[Meerkat]

In terms of the additional maintenance needed for 70 rather than 50 does it mess things up if sections of an otherwise 50 line are increased to 70, or do you just alter the work schedule a bit?

 

[WibbleWobble]

In what way could it possibly have been terrible while the full 4 track alignment was open before 1965? Were journey times from Southport to Victoria under an hour? That’s better service than now.

Okay, I think we're seeing "level of service" as being two different things.

You're looking at available paths for both local services and longer distance ones, whereas I've looked at the service levels for the stations on the line which is what I would have deemed to be the service level for the line, given non-calling services could be routed over different lines (especially those towards places like Blackpool!)

Services run across Manchester for operational convenience; Wigan-Leeds won't be a massive flow, almost everyone is headed for Manchester. Plus if TPE wasn't so awful, it'd be quicker to change at Vic for a fast Leeds.

Indeed, it was done to avoid trains from clogging up platforms at Victoria when on layover between services. Although the cross-city links are useful, and with how the connections line up, there's not always a huge time advantage by changing as the Northern services generally arrive just after the TPE leaves (even when a full TPE service is running!).

 

[Dr Hoo]

Is the Atherton line an example of a principle railway route open today which is inferior to how it was 60-70 years ago? In most cases it is the other way round, but in the case of Atherton line, it used to carry long distance services in its 4-track layout. Nowadays it only carries local traffic, reduced to 2 tracks and the linespeed is only 50mph. Was the quality of the rail better when it handled long distance services or has the signalling regressed? And was there a more frequent service than there is now?

I think that the answer depends on the question of 'inferior' for whom?

For a multitude of reasons the demands of yesteryear have disappeared. Serving local collieries, etc. was obviously important when they were open. Having three competing routes between two major cities required fast services on each of them if they were to get a share of the revenue. (Not necessarily very helpful to an intending passenger at either Liverpool or Manchester wondering which station to make for, for the 'next train'.) Providing a fast service from Manchester to Southport or (as an alternative to the Chorley route) Blackpool in the days when hoards of people wanted to make such leisure journeys to the 'seaside' (even if there was a good chance that they would hardly see the sea).

None of these purposes really related to someone wanting to travel to and from Atherton itself (or neighbouring stations). The local service was always rather patchy and irregular, and very thin on Sundays. Some local stations, such as Irlams-O'-Th'-Height, faded away (closed by the British Transport Commission in March 1956, in line with the Modernisation Plan).

The same pattern limped on during the Beeching era and even after the establishment of the Passenger Transport Executives under the 1968 Transport Act there was little local urgency in improving services on the line. The same Act also, of course, cemented the track rationalisation culture by providing the Surplus Track Capacity [hasty elimination thereof] Grants.

Ironically, a map in the 1973 London Midland Region timetable proudly included the Atherton line in a map of 'Inter City Services from Manchester'!

It was some years later that the concept of a broadly half-hourly local service as the prime role of the route finally took hold but that is where we are today (including hourly services on Sundays).

Now that the jointed track, semaphore signals and Pacers have gone and there is a nice same/cross-platform interchange with other routes at Salford Crescent and through trains beyond Manchester Victoria it can reasonably be claimed that the route is finally becoming 'fit for purpose' and is arguably the best that it has ever been for local people. (I appreciate that there is still more to do, e.g. in terms of station accessibility.)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

whereas I've looked at the service levels for the stations on the line which is what I would have deemed to be the service level for the line,

in my eyes this should be what is considered in this thread and in future for speculation.
We have routes for intercity services now, and those are via Bolton (e.g. Windermere, TPE) and Chat Moss (Liverpool-Manc and the peak time WGN-MAN)

 

[scrapy]

50 is very frequently hit, Atherton - Walkden and Swinton - Salford Crescent all spend a good bit of time at 50.

50 is hit, however not sustained for more than 2-3 minutes. 70 may be hit for a minute or two between the 2 pairs of stations mentioned but the journey time savings over the route however the journey time savings would probably be less than a minute. Is it really worth the extra expense and maintenance which I've heard would be considerable due to the unstable ground the line is built on?

 

[td97]

50 is hit, however not sustained for more than 2-3 minutes. 70 may be hit for a minute or two between the 2 pairs of stations mentioned but the journey time savings over the route however the journey time savings would probably be less than a minute. Is it really worth the extra expense and maintenance which I've heard would be considerable due to the unstable ground the line is built on?

Of course with a signalling upgrade thrown in you could have a better service pattern and mix of fast, semi-fast and stoppers similar to the Bolton line. Especially once Salford Crescent gets its 3rd platform.

 

[The Planner]

Of course with a signalling upgrade thrown in you could have a better service pattern and mix of fast, semi-fast and stoppers similar to the Bolton line. Especially once Salford Crescent gets its 3rd platform.

Salford Crescent will just allow parallel moves into the platform, its still a single lead at the Manchester end.

 

[507020]

Okay, I think we're seeing "level of service" as being two different things.

You're looking at available paths for both local services and longer distance ones, whereas I've looked at the service levels for the stations on the line which is what I would have deemed to be the service level for the line, given non-calling services could be routed over different lines (especially those towards places like Blackpool!)

The thing is, there actually are two different things. The most local services calling at the intermediate stations between Pendleton (Broad Street, now Salford Crescent) and Hindley and longer distance ones routed using the same alignment. Services to Blackpool stations avoiding Bolton were of course forced to use the Atherton either via Dobbs Brow, Boars Head or the WCML.

Indeed, it was done to avoid trains from clogging up platforms at Victoria when on layover between services. Although the cross-city links are useful, and with how the connections line up, there's not always a huge time advantage by changing as the Northern services generally arrive just after the TPE leaves (even when a full TPE service is running!).

The through service using the unmodernised layout at Victoria has the advantage of preventing pedestrian congestion on only 4 platforms. The present First TPE service is quite insufficient.

I think that the answer depends on the question of 'inferior' for whom?

I can not deny that I am biased from the perspective of a passenger using the L&YR from either Churchtown, Birkdale or Southport Chapel Street, but 3 fast mixed traffic (Westwood Park/Pemberton Loop and Warrington Straight line inclusive, as opposed to competitive) routes Liverpool - Manchester is preferable to the present arrangement.

Atherton itself was of course one of only 2 (the other being Pendleton) stations with platforms on the fast lines and Bolton-avoiding or fast Blackpool services had to make use of the Dobbs Brow and Atherton lines in the same way as Fast Southports.

We are certainly, in the year 2023, well beyond the existence of jointed track, semaphore signals and 14x Pacers, but we must still insist that both local Atherton serving and longer distance Bolton avoiding journey times are adequate.

the unstable ground the line is built on?

The land the Lancashire and Yorkshire Main Line is built on is that of former coal measures, but that is no reason to object to its continued operation as a high speed railway.