Asymmetrical Timetables

[GordonT]

Are there any examples of termini whose regular departures generally operate to terminal 'x' but whose regular arrivals operate from terminal 'y'?

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Do you mean like what I think used to happen and maybe still does at Paris Gare Du/De Lyon, where trains departed from one side of the station, but arrived at the other side, that would have involved a lot of shunting. Would be like the departures from London Victoria on the Kent side p1-8 and arrived on the Brighton Side 9-18 Ish?

 

[JonathanH]

Are there any examples of termini whose regular departures generally operate to terminal 'x' but whose regular arrivals operate from terminal 'y'?

They aren't advertised as through trains across Preston but local trains in the Preston area currently work Blackpool South - Preston - Colne - Preston - Ormskirk - Preston - Blackpool South cycles.

 

[GordonT]

Do you mean like what I think used to happen and maybe still does at Paris Gare Du/De Lyon, where trains departed from one side of the station, but arrived at the other side, that would have involved a lot of shunting. Would be like the departures from London Victoria on the Kent side p1-8 and arrived on the Brighton Side 9-18 Ish?

Not what I was thinking about although that is interesting also. I was thinking more of urban networks of services where most services commencing their journey at "Onetown" terminate at "Twotown". However most services commencing their journey at "Twotown" terminate at "Threetown". Most services commencing their journey at "Threetown" terminate at "Onetown" and the cycle repeats itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==

They aren't advertised as through trains across Preston but local trains in the Preston area currently work Blackpool South - Preston - Colne - Preston - Ormskirk - Preston - Blackpool South cycles.

Kind of what I was thinking of. I think the Tyne and Wear Metro and Glasgow North Clyde networks and maybe Merseyrail have or have had services where you can make a through trip from one terminal to another only in one direction.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Didn't Northern used to have something like that on stopping trains via the Sheffield-Doncaster axis, with a unit running Scunthorpe-Lincoln-Adwick-Sheffield-Scunthorpe and repeat?

 

[edwin_m]

Didn't Northern used to have something like that on stopping trains via the Sheffield-Doncaster axis, with a unit running Scunthorpe-Lincoln-Adwick-Sheffield-Scunthorpe and repeat?

There are or have been others on Northern. In one of its incarnations the Huddersfield-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds was part of such a "triangular circuit", and I think there is or has been one involving Wigan and Stalybridge to Manchester. Basically when services run through a major city which is the destination for most passengers, it doesn't matter too much where the train goes after that, so they are combined to make the best use of resources without any thought of whether the end to end journey is one that many passengers will want. London commuter TOCs tend to have more resources, but for most of them the major destination is a London terminus so that sort of through running doesn't arise.

 

[JonathanH]

London commuter TOCs tend to have more resources, but for most of them the major destination is a London terminus so that sort of through running doesn't arise.

More to the point, the services in the London area all tend to be to London so the fact that units work a diagram that does a different route on each trip to London isn't as noticeable as when the same thing happens at Preston.

Examples exist at Waterloo and Charing Cross / Cannon Street on the suburban side workings.

 

[swt_passenger]

Was there a phase a few years ago on the Newcastle - Carlisle line, where a number of Northern trains ran from Teeside TO Carlisle, but on their eastbound leg became Carlisle to Morpeth, (or something like that)? Compensated for by trains making short workings to/from Newcastle?

 

[IanD]

Didn't the Aire valley lines do this at one time? Bradford-Ilkley-Leeds-Skipton-Bradford or something like that?

 

[adrock1976]

Going back a while ago before the Airdrie - Bathgate line was reinstated, trains on the SPT side used to run as follows on Mon-Sat daytimes:

Drumgelloch (1989 site) - Helensburgh Central via Yoker (non stop Hyndland - Dalmuir)
Helensburgh Central - Airdrie via Yoker (non stop Dalmuir - Hyndland)
Airdrie - Balloch via Westerton
Balloch - Drumgelloch (1989 site) via Westerton

Also, when the Edinburgh Crossrail concept was introduced in 2003 with the opening of stations at Edinburgh Park, Brunstane, and Newcraighall, the Mon-Sat workings were as follows:

Dunblane - Edinburgh Waverley
Edinburgh Waverley - Bathgate (1986 site)
Bathgate (1986 site) - Newcraighall
Newcraighall - Dunblane

The Edinburgh Crossrail concept did not last long and was revised to Newcraighall - Fife local, Dunblane - Edinburgh Waverley, and Bathgate (1986) - Edinburgh Waverley (possibly as preparation for the reinstatement of the Airdrie - Bathgate line).

 

[30907]

Didn't the Aire valley lines do this at one time? Bradford-Ilkley-Leeds-Skipton-Bradford or something like that?

They still normally interwork at Leeds and Bradford, but each leg has trains in both directions, and they aren't advertised as through workings (obviously) so it doesn't fit the OP's criterion.
The hastily-abandoned interworking of LNW services across Birmingham might have qualified.

 

[Dai Corner]

It happens on the Cardiff Valley Lines.

For example, trains from Bridgend arrive at Aberdare and return to Barry Island

Realtime Trains | Departures from Aberdare all day on 20/01/2022

Train information at Aberdare all day on 20/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peregrine 4903]

On Sunday only, Southern services run from London Bridge - Crystal Palace via Sydenham, terminate there and then run same direction back to London Bridge via Tulse Hill. The same thing happens in the other direction.

 

[Tramfan]

Not what I was thinking about although that is interesting also. I was thinking more of urban networks of services where most services commencing their journey at "Onetown" terminate at "Twotown". However most services commencing their journey at "Twotown" terminate at "Threetown". Most services commencing their journey at "Threetown" terminate at "Onetown" and the cycle repeats itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==


Kind of what I was thinking of. I think the Tyne and Wear Metro and Glasgow North Clyde networks and maybe Merseyrail have or have had services where you can make a through trip from one terminal to another only in one direction.

I'm not aware of any times when the Tyne & Wear Metro has been timetabled like this, not to say it's never happened, but I would imagine if it had it would have been as a result of engineering works, rather than a planned working timetable.

I first thought of Blackpool North where I'm sure this used to happen in recent years, although I can't remember exact details. Seems there's a fairly standard pattern to the services now there though.

 

[30907]

On Sunday only, Southern services run from London Bridge - Crystal Palace via Sydenham, terminate there and then run same direction back to London Bridge via Tulse Hill. The same thing happens in the other direction.

Looking at RTT, in normal operation they go back the way they came, although the timetable would make it a logical move (and of course it has been the practice on and off for a century there!

Corrected down-thread

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Looking at RTT, in normal operation they go back the way they came, although the timetable would make it a logical move (and of course it has been the practice on and off for a century there!

Umm, I don't think they do go back the way they came, I was literally looking at it today and they continue and do the full ciruct on Sunday.

 

[Watershed]

They aren't advertised as through trains across Preston but local trains in the Preston area currently work Blackpool South - Preston - Colne - Preston - Ormskirk - Preston - Blackpool South cycles.

A very good example. I'm sure they used to be advertised as through services in the past. In the (not so distant) days of manual destination blinds, traincrew would often display the train's "true" destination.

The reason for this arguably curious cycle is that each of the three services in question have awkward durations - Preston-Ormskirk-Preston is 67', Preston-Blackpool South-Preston is 78', and Preston-Colne-Preston is 2'24". None of which lend themselves very well to an hourly service - particularly the Blackpool service, which would require awkward shunts as there are no north facing (passenger) bays.

If you operated them each as standalone services you would need 2 units for Ormskirk, 2 for Blackpool South and 3 for Colne, 7 in total. Whereas by combining the three into one cycle you only need 5 units.

The downside is that it's a very tight cycle, with turnarounds of just 4-5 minutes at each of the termini, which means that's there's really only around 5 minutes of 'slack' per 5 hours.

In terms of lines which have an advertised asymmetric service, many services on the Birmingham-Rugeley line start at New Street, however in the opposite direction more or less every other train continues through to Birmingham International.

I believe it used to be the case that there was briefly a direct service from Euston, splitting at New Street, but only a return working as far as International? Again, a matter of diagramming (or perhaps more accurately, New Street platforming!) convenience

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Until simplified in the last 12 months the Argyle Line services were as follows:

Dalmuir - Larkhall
Larkhall - Milngavie
Milngavie - Cumbernauld
Cumbernauld - Dalmuir
Dalmuir - Whifflet
Whifflet - Milngavie
Milngavie - Motherwell
Motherwell - Dalmuir

and then the cycle starts again.....

 

[30907]

Umm, I don't think they do go back the way they came, I was literally looking at it today and they continue and do the full ciruct on Sunday.

Apologies, just found a "normal" Sunday. Are they advertised as through trains, incidentally, with those 12 and 22min layovers?

 

[The exile]

Isn’t that the pattern for the new Severn Beach service?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Isn’t that the pattern for the new Severn Beach service?

Yes indeed, you’ve now got hourly:

Weston SM-Severn Beach
Severn Beach-Bristol TM
Bristol TM-Avonmouth
Avonmouth-Weston SM

So Severn Beach and St Andrew’s Road have services from west of Bristol, but in the other direction you would need to change.

From May 22 it becomes (stock diagram-wise) even more interesting, as on arrival at Bristol TM from Severn Beach, the units will do an out-and-back round trip to Filton Abbey Wood before picking up the Avonmouth circuit an hour later. These are the services that will eventually extend to Henbury when it reopens.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Would operating via asymmetric routes still count? Back in 2014 when an additional hourly service was provided between Manchester Victoria and Todmorden in readiness for the Todmorden Curve service, it actually ran through from and to Wigan Wallgate. Departures from Todmorden ran via Bolton, but what I hadn't appreciated when it started was that the terminating trains at Todmorden had come via the Atherton line. Until the day when two pensioners from Atherton who had "just come for a free ride" turned up, utterly horrified that they had no direct train back home. They weren't too happy to have to pay to get back over the Greater Manchester border, either!

 

[GordonT]

Would operating via asymmetric routes still count? Back in 2014 when an additional hourly service was provided between Manchester Victoria and Todmorden in readiness for the Todmorden Curve service, it actually ran through from and to Wigan Wallgate. Departures from Todmorden ran via Bolton, but what I hadn't appreciated when it started was that the terminating trains at Todmorden had come via the Atherton line. Until the day when two pensioners from Atherton who had "just come for a free ride" turned up, utterly horrified that they had no direct train back home. They weren't too happy to have to pay to get back over the Greater Manchester border, either!

An extreme case but a good one to add to the examples!

 

[Class 466]

Looking at RTT, in normal operation they go back the way they came, although the timetable would make it a logical move (and of course it has been the practice on and off for a century there!

06/02 has the normal operation and on a Sunday they do cross form to make a rounder effectively.

 

[DanNCL]

Kind of what I was thinking of. I think the Tyne and Wear Metro and Glasgow North Clyde networks and maybe Merseyrail have or have had services where you can make a through trip from one terminal to another only in one direction.

There are two early morning services on weekdays (one at weekends) from Regent Centre to South Shields in that direction only, with nothing in the opposite direction from South Shields heading to Regent Centre. Apart from that there aren’t any left on Metro.

 

[Taunton]

Are there any examples of termini whose regular departures generally operate to terminal 'x' but whose regular arrivals operate from terminal 'y'?

The Wirral electrics had a period of doing exactly this, around the Liverpool loop, where the trains from Chester all went round and on to West Kirby, then these went back round and all to New Brighton, etc, and through the day each visited all the termini in sequence. Probably seemed like a good idea at the time somehow, but it was found eventually to be a considerable nuisance, especially on days when service on one of the branches had been disrupted, and finally retreated to simple all day workings to/from the same outer point, as it had originally done.

One feature was that if travelling from the Chester line to the West Kirby line, not many did so but I did a few times, it was a waste of time to change at the junction at Hamilton Square and walk right over to the departure platform and wait, as it would be the same train that then turned up to continue, so you may as well stay on board. This did not apply for the return journey.

 

[Bikeman78]

Not what I was thinking about although that is interesting also. I was thinking more of urban networks of services where most services commencing their journey at "Onetown" terminate at "Twotown". However most services commencing their journey at "Twotown" terminate at "Threetown". Most services commencing their journey at "Threetown" terminate at "Onetown" and the cycle repeats itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jan 2022 ==


Kind of what I was thinking of. I think the Tyne and Wear Metro and Glasgow North Clyde networks and maybe Merseyrail have or have had services where you can make a through trip from one terminal to another only in one direction.

Glasgow used to be symmetrical. I can't remember when that changed, it was either when Larkhall or Airdrie to Bathgate opened.

EDIT: I see from post #10 that the North Clyde wasn't quite symmetrical. I think the Argyle line was though.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

The Severn Beach line is now an excellent example of an assymtetrical timetable, where most off peak trains to Severn Beach come from Weston Super Mare but head back to Temple Meads, and the reverse at Avonmouth.

 

[30907]

06/02 has the normal operation and on a Sunday they do cross form to make a rounder effectively.

I've now corrected the quoted post.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

A great thread. As has been discussed, things like the triangle of workings in Airedale don’t count as you still get a half-hourly service from wherever you live to/from both.

I seem to recall a situation in which evening peak trains from Charing Cross / Cannon Street to Sevenoaks then worked trains in addition to the 319s back via Otford. They went to a mix of Blackfriars and Victoria from memory, and it allowed some 319s to go to Bedford for the night for fixing. As Southeastern operated the legs south of Blackfriars (officially, Victoria and Orpington drivers did go right to Bedford) it was alright. But there was no early morning inverse of that, as some units from the Sutton Loop came ECS back from Sutton / Wimbledon to Bellingham / Orpington for the following morning.

It’s not quite as good as the all-day Avonmouth and Severn Beach example.