Assessment question about passmarks

[carlejo]

I've recently sat and passed the assessments for ATW and I'm still waiting for a SI/medical date.

They said just before assessments commenced that a course would be starting in May.

When they phoned 2 weeks after assessments had been completed, they said they were waiting for course dates, and they would contact us when dates were available.

This is not a silly question, but I'm thinking that any TOC would want to take on people with higher marks in the assessments, is this a fair assumption ?

For the GLOP, DFFT, and fast reaction I had a good pass, with a very good on the GBT.

So is this possibly the reason I haven't had another call yet, that they've taken on people with better pass marks ?

 

[TDK]

I've recently sat and passed the assessments for ATW and I'm still waiting for a SI/medical date.

They said just before assessments commenced that a course would be starting in May.

When they phoned 2 weeks after assessments had been completed, they said they were waiting for course dates, and they would contact us when dates were available.

This is not a silly question, but I'm thinking that any TOC would want to take on people with higher marks in the assessments, is this a fair assumption ?

For the GLOP, DFFT, and fast reaction I had a good pass, with a very good on the GBT.

So is this possibly the reason I haven't had another call yet, that they've taken on people with better pass marks ?

The interview is the most important part of the tests

 

[carlejo]

To clarify

I applied and was shortlisted.

I attended a driver manager/HR interview

After interview, I was invited back for assessments, which I passed

I'm now waiting for a date for SI/medical.

 

[TDK]

To clarify

I applied and was shortlisted.

I attended a driver manager/HR interview

After interview, I was invited back for assessments, which I passed

I'm now waiting for a date for SI/medical.

OK, I understand, yes, the results are taken into account when sifting, if there are too many candidates (and nowadays there are) they will sift out by taking the highest result in the tests for the next stage. Unfortunatley there are too many suitable candidates missing out on jobs as all the tests have practice material available, hopefully the ones who have cheated will fail the SI.

 

[sw1ller]

hopefully the ones who have cheated will fail the SI.

Quick question, how is it cheating?

I completely understand, there shouldn't be any practice material out there so at the end of the process the best and most suitable candidates get the job. But the fact remains that TOCs send out the practice material, it is out there.

Surely not using it in fear of being called a "cheat" is idiotic. I'm told to prepare for any job interview/assessment as much as possible. I think "cheat" is the incorrect word here.

 

[Beveridges]

Surely not using it in fear of being called a "cheat" is idiotic. I'm told to prepare for any job interview/assessment as much as possible. I think "cheat" is the incorrect word here.

Using the practice materia TOC's send out is not "cheating" as the examples are poor. What could arguably be classed as cheating is doing what I did, using the excellent aids that are available on the Internet for practice, and getting advice from recent candidates on what you get asked.
I'm not sure whether I cheated or not, but don't care to be honest, why should I care now when I'm doing a Driving job that I'm capable of, and if the tests did see me off if I hadn't used the aids, then its the tests that were in the wrong!


the SI is the most important (and difficult) part. The SI has nearly half of the criteria that must be met during the entire assessment day. Thats how important it is.

 

[sw1ller]

Using the practice materia TOC's send out is not "cheating" as the examples are poor. What could arguably be classed as cheating is doing what I did, using the excellent aids that are available on the Internet for practice, and getting advice from recent candidates on what you get asked.
I'm not sure whether I cheated or not, but don't care to be honest, why should I care now when I'm doing a Driving job that I'm capable of, and if the tests did see me off if I hadn't used the aids, then its the tests that were in the wrong!


the SI is the most important (and difficult) part. The SI has nearly half of the criteria that must be met during the entire assessment day. Thats how important it is.

I think I would agree with your attitude Beveridges. I still don't see it as cheating but I also understand why TDK is so concerned. Nobody wants people incapable of doing the job on the line putting others at risk. But like you said, the SI will easily see off anyone below par.

 

[TDK]

I think I would agree with your attitude Beveridges. I still don't see it as cheating but I also understand why TDK is so concerned. Nobody wants people incapable of doing the job on the line putting others at risk. But like you said, the SI will easily see off anyone below par.

The point you need to understand is the reasons why so many candidates are on hold who have passed the assessments. I did recruitment of train drivers for 5 years and have never known so many to pass the tests and then be told, sorry, you passed the tests but are on hold. The SI is always the largest stepping stone and this part is now a lot harder to pass than it was a few years back due to the sheer amount of passes.

To answer Bevs part - Ok Bev, you admit cheating on the tests. There may have been a candidate who didn't cheat who passed but with a slightly lower grade than you who did not get the job when clearly if you hadn't cheated they would have got the job, I am talking your applications with mainline here. The only way for this whole shambles to be fair is that everyone cheats or no one cheats. Roll on the new assessment process.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But like you said, the SI will easily see off anyone below par.

But unfortunately there may be viable candidates who do not get to the SI who have not cheated but passed with lower grades!

 

[Bun]

TDK I think you need to get yourself a new dictionary my friend because your definition of cheating is way off.

Preparing thoroughly for an interview with the help of an online forum.... is not cheating

Putting in many hours of practise on tests..... is not cheating.

Asking previous candidates for help and advise...... is not cheating

The above are sensible things to do when facing such long odds to secure a job.

Most people applying for Trainee Train Driver jobs are too lazy to devote such efforts to passing all the stages, hence many people using these forums are passing because we stand out to TOC's.

Don't know why you're such a bitter and twisted poster TDK we're all just after some help and don't deserve to be called cheats by you.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Using practice papers and examples provided by the TOC is certainly not cheating. To try and suggest it is absolutely ridiculous.

If people choose not to use the practice papers then they are being disadvantaged by their own choice.

 

[Vicpaul]

Knowledge is power and if there is anything out there to aid you I'm all for it.

I had to come on as a trainee as six years driving on the tube counts for nothing. I done my research, took advice from drivers and used material that was readily available. If that makes me a cheat so be it, I see it as being prepared

 

[daddy_badger]

I actually believe the word you are looking for is researching as opposed to cheating.

 

[Beveridges]

In response to TDK I never admitted to cheating, I said it might be arguably classed as cheating by some. But whether it is cheating or not I don't care, it got me into the role I'm in now, and if the tests saw me off, I wouldn't be here now.
The aids are available for anyone to use. Anyone who didn't use them and failed, its because they didn't do as much research as me, which means they didn't want the job as much as me. It's not like the aids are illegal to download.
I might have passed without the aids. I don't know and don't care now.

 

[FlamTap]

... The only way for this whole shambles to be fair is that everyone cheats or no one cheats. Roll on the new assessment process.

This will only make a difference in the interim.

The job is such a coveted one, with huge odds against succeeding and equally huge rewards for the lucky ones. It's human nature to try and reduce the odds against.

I guarantee that for any test comprising of "candidate against machine" or "candidate against a pen/pencil exercise" new practice aids in the form of software, material and information will be made available. I also guarantee that these aids will equal or exceed the quality and accuracy of the ones available for the current tests.

Short of making every assessment candidate sign a legal non-disclaimer, and then prosecuting any candidates caught "leaking" information (which is simply not practical, and would be very difficult to prove) you are never going to stop the availability of knowledge.

As I mentioned in a previous post, we live in an age of simple, fast mass communication via cheap technology. This isn't going to go away.

 

[Merrydown]

My thoughts on this process that a change in the recruitment process is needed.
If you was to not read this forum and not do any research into the role of a train driver then 95% of people would possible fail as a lot of the general public still believe the the job to be no different to driving on the road.
As a driver on the T+W Metro which I agree is not strictly a train driver,I do understand the need for the tests which are set out at the moment.
How ever,knowledge is key and the amount of information and practice material available has made the process to pass easier.

 

[daddy_badger]

I do believe there is a disclaimer on the practice material that is sent out:

It is so, I can not even copy the text from the pdf file.

Also a disclaimer in the e-mail sent out.

By opening the Practice Materials you have agreed to not copy or re-distribute the files electronically and if you decide to print the document that you will only print it once. The document remains the copyright of OPC Assessment Limited.

However, this directly relates to the practice material only.

It also says that you will do better at the assessment if you have an idea what to expect. It also recommends the use of Simple Simon and Boppit. Strange how it doesn't mention anything about using the internet as a research tool nor utilising online forums.

 

[TDK]

Don't know why you're such a bitter and twisted poster TDK we're all just after some help and don't deserve to be called cheats by you.

I have not called anyone individually a cheat - but practising tests before you take them and asking for answers to interview questions/answers is cheating

This is your opinion and does not reflect on the many private messages I get for advice. I am not bitter and twisted. Yes, use the material sent out by the TOC's but practicing tests before they are taken must be a form of cheating in my book, you couldn't do this with GCSE's, NVQ's ect. The reason why I am against all the practice material is that it is most certainly making a mockery of the whole assessment process and there are some good candidates who do not have access to the software many are using and not getting the grades as hisgh as the ones who are practicing the tests.

It is wrong that anyone "cheats" but if the material is there and people use it there is nothing anyone can do. Look how mnay on here fail at interview and say I am in a talent pool etc. This is all down to the high numbers of candidates falsley passing the psychometric testing.

The reason it worries me is that there are some on here who advise people to blatantly lie in interview to get the job, this is also wrong. I just feel sorry for the genuine candidates out there who are quite competent for the jobs and are not getting the chance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Using practice papers and examples provided by the TOC is certainly not cheating. To try and suggest it is absolutely ridiculous.

If people choose not to use the practice papers then they are being disadvantaged by their own choice.

This is not the point - the papers sent out by the TOC's is there to be used
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In response to TDK I never admitted to cheating,

Errrm - I beg to differ Bev

What could arguably be classed as cheating is doing what I did, using the excellent aids that are available on the Internet for practice, and getting advice from recent candidates on what you get asked.

 

[notadriver]

My thoughts on this process that a change in the recruitment process is needed.
If you was to not read this forum and not do any research into the role of a train driver then 95% of people would possible fail as a lot of the general public still believe the the job to be no different to driving on the road.
As a driver on the T+W Metro which I agree is not strictly a train driver,I do understand the need for the tests which are set out at the moment.
How ever,knowledge is key and the amount of information and practice material available has made the process to pass easier.

Hi Merrydown
I think whilst you can practice, a lot of people seem to fail on the reactions test and the criteria based interview. I've known railway staff - conductors fail the CBI. Then there is the actual job interview with driver manager(s) which can be quite stressful - to the point I've known main line drivers failing to secure positions in a company which needs drivers. All I'm saying I think it varies depending on the person.

As you are a T+W Metro driver I would definitely class you as a train driver. You can 100+ passengers around on main lines at speeds up to 50 mph. On the other hand I don't classify people who only drive in depots and sidings at 5 mph as train drivers.

 

[sw1ller]

I have not called anyone individually a cheat - but practising tests before you take them and asking for answers to interview questions/answers is cheating

This is your opinion and does not reflect on the many private messages I get for advice. I am not bitter and twisted. Yes, use the material sent out by the TOC's but practicing tests before they are taken must be a form of cheating in my book, you couldn't do this with GCSE's, NVQ's ect. The reason why I am against all the practice material is that it is most certainly making a mockery of the whole assessment process and there are some good candidates who do not have access to the software many are using and not getting the grades as hisgh as the ones who are practicing the tests.

It is wrong that anyone "cheats" but if the material is there and people use it there is nothing anyone can do. Look how mnay on here fail at interview and say I am in a talent pool etc. This is all down to the high numbers of candidates falsley passing the psychometric testing.

The reason it worries me is that there are some on here who advise people to blatantly lie in interview to get the job, this is also wrong. I just feel sorry for the genuine candidates out there who are quite competent for the jobs and are not getting the chance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This is not the point - the papers sent out by the TOC's is there to be used
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Errrm - I beg to differ Bev

WOW!

Where to start TDK.... point 1) "practising tests before you take them and asking for answers to interview questions/answers is cheating" - No. Simply, no. Together with point 2) "you couldn't do this with GCSE's, NVQ's ect." - What the hell are MOCK GCSE's then? of course you can practice. I took a test the other day, a maths one, I practiced counting change on my DS. I had a SI the other day too, I practiced the questions they would ask..... None of which were bloody asked! I went into that interview all confident and came out a wreck! I'm still angry with myself.

point 3) "This is your opinion and does not reflect on the many private messages I get for advice. - So are you helping people "cheat"?..... moving on.

"The reason why I am against all the practice material is that it is most certainly making a mockery of the whole assessment process and there are some good candidates who do not have access to the software many are using and not getting the grades as hisgh as the ones who are practicing the tests." - OK, I completely agree. (not a point but wanted to prove i'm not being a total d**k)

point 4) "This is all down to the high numbers of candidates falsley passing the psychometric testing" - I don't know how you can falsely pass testing? If you have prepared your self to the required standard then you are capable, surely?? I'm happy to be correct here of course.

And lastly, point 5) - "I beg to differ Bev" - You go on to quote Bev and in that passage he never admits to cheating. He admits to what he's admitted to.... He's done what people could construe as cheating. Its opinion based and in my particular opinion, its not cheating!

Anyway, I didn't mean to sound harsh on this post, but there were so many things that needed dissecting I couldn't stop my fingers. A lot of your advice on here is fantastic but it is quite clear you have an issue with the amount of practice material. I do see your point but my original question was "why is it cheating" and up to now you have failed to answer satisfactorily.

Sorry to stir up these arguments, I meant no harm. Thank you.

 

[TDK]

WOW!

Where to start TDK.... point 1) "practising tests before you take them and asking for answers to interview questions/answers is cheating" - No. Simply, no. Together with point 2) "you couldn't do this with GCSE's, NVQ's ect." - What the hell are MOCK GCSE's then? of course you can practice. I took a test the other day, a maths one, I practiced counting change on my DS. I had a SI the other day too, I practiced the questions they would ask..... None of which were bloody asked! I went into that interview all confident and came out a wreck! I'm still angry with myself.

But you do not get the actual questions asked

point 3) "This is your opinion and does not reflect on the many private messages I get for advice. - So are you helping people "cheat"?..... moving on.

Simple answer NO![/quoute]

"The reason why I am against all the practice material is that it is most certainly making a mockery of the whole assessment process and there are some good candidates who do not have access to the software many are using and not getting the grades as hisgh as the ones who are practicing the tests." - OK, I completely agree. (not a point but wanted to prove i'm not being a total d**k)

point 4) "This is all down to the high numbers of candidates falsley passing the psychometric testing" - I don't know how you can falsely pass testing? If you have prepared your self to the required standard then you are capable, surely?? I'm happy to be correct here of course.

The tests are not designed to see if you have a good memory, to see if you can practice soemthing and get a high score, they are there to test your natual ability to see if you are the correct material to drive trains, the system is being abused

And lastly, point 5) - "I beg to differ Bev" - You go on to quote Bev and in that passage he never admits to cheating. He admits to what he's admitted to.... He's done what people could construe as cheating. Its opinion based and in my particular opinion, its not cheating!

Anyway, I didn't mean to sound harsh on this post, but there were so many things that needed dissecting I couldn't stop my fingers. A lot of your advice on here is fantastic but it is quite clear you have an issue with the amount of practice material. I do see your point but my original question was "why is it cheating" and up to now you have failed to answer satisfactorily.

Sorry to stir up these arguments, I meant no harm. Thank you.

Look, my opinion is that the system has now failed due to the amount of practice material and the option to find out what questions are going to be asked, the way the dials tests work, the glop questions. You and most who have practiced (if you have) I feel does not give a true deduction of what the tests are about.

People come on this forum and ask for advice on how to pass a test, ok that is fine, the advice I give is what the assessors are looking for with the tests and the way the tests should be carried out to be successful, in other words helping people how to undertstand the tests. I respect your view matey but anyone is going to attack my views if I blatantly say it is cheating. If I was in the position now I would do everything I could to pass the tests including cheating as if it something I really want and that is the way I will get the edge I will do it - however it is not fair to others who have a more, lets say better conscience than me.

 

[Quickthorn]

... If I was in the position now I would do everything I could to pass the tests including cheating as if it something I really want and that is the way I will get the edge I will do it - however it is not fair to others who have a more, lets say better conscience than me.

Yes, what else can we do if we know that everyone around us is preparing/cheating for all they are worth? Perhaps a reset would do the whole process some good.

I've got a question about pass marks. I've found out that, on the first TPE assessments, I got a good pass on the GBT and TRP 1 (Glop), but only a pass on the TRP 2 (Dials). Is "pass" the same as "borderline pass" that's often mentioned here?

 

[daddy_badger]

Pass is a pass a borderline pass is a borderline pass.

 

[carlejo]

When I had my results a few weeks ago there were 4 stages of pass

Boderline
good
very good
excellent

My assessor mentioned that some TOC's will not accept boderline passes

 

[Beveridges]

The Grades when I did mine went like this:

Fail = F
Borderline Pass = Grade C
"Pass" = Grade B
"Good Pass" and "Outstanding Pass" = Grade A

4 stages of pass but different names to what you said.

Borderline passes back when I did mine in 2008 were OK as every TOC used to accept them, but not anymore.
The only good thing about a borderline pass is that you don't use up one of your two failures. But it does not seem to help you get a job these days. Unless the TOC accepts it.