ASLEF votes to campaign against Scottish independence

[telstarbox]

ASLEF, the main train drivers’ union, today became the first union to oppose Scottish independence in a unanimous vote at its annual conference in Edinburgh.

Delegates also agreed to affiliate to the Better Together campaign for Scotland to stay in the UK, despite concern from some that it had received funding from Conservative donors.

Scotland district secretary Kevin Lindsay said no Aslef branch north of the Border had supported independence for Scotland.

He said: “This is not about bashing Alex Salmond. It’s about a vision for Scotland within the United Kingdom.

“You didn’t get asked on your way here to Edinburgh for a passport, you got asked for a ticket.

“The preferred option of the SNP is the pound issued by the Bank of England and controlled by the Bank of England. There’s an indication in that name of who will be running the Scottish economy.

“I want a United Kingdom that delivers for the working-class people of this country. Let’s not put borders up, because borders divide people.”

Full article on the Scotsman website.

Is it not generally understood that a common travel area would be created in the event of Scottish independence similar to the Schengen area, and so border controls would not be required? (of course, this is far from the most important issue relating to independence).

 

[dcsprior]

Full article on the Scotsman website.

Is it not generally understood that a common travel area would be created in the event of Scottish independence similar to the Schengen area, and so border controls would not be required? (of course, this is far from the most important issue relating to independence).

As I understand it, the position on border controls can be summarised as:

Scotland may or may not be able to join the EU without having to accept everything that an entirely new EU member has to (including using the Euro and becoming part of the Schengen Area). The answer is not known for definite

• Some of the noises from the European Commission have suggested we would not be able to, but this may be related to the fact that the EC president has half an eye on separatists back home in Spain
• many people believe we'd inherit some of the UK's concessions either on legal grounds that Scotland and the rest of UK (rUK) would both be successor states, or alternatively because its simply expedient on political/diplomatic grounds.

The UK government has said that if there are no border controls between Scotland and the rest of Europe (i.e. if we do have to become part of the Schengen Area) then there will be border controls between Scotland and rUK. So until we know whether we inherit the UK's opt-out of Schengen , we don't know.

On a personal note, I don't think people should vote on what is convenient or cheap - but on what they believe. I say this as someone living in Scotland and working in England - so depending how things go when it comes to some of the EU negotiations, I do have a reasonable amount to lose.

 

[Eagle]

The UK government has said that if there are no border controls between Scotland and the rest of Europe (i.e. if we do have to become part of the Shengen Area) then there will be border controls between Scotland and rUK. So until we know whether we inherit the UK's opt-out of Shengen, we don't know.

Or the rUK (and Ireland) joins Schengen too. Simple solution is obvious, although probably highly politically unpopular... :roll:

 

[dcsprior]

Or the rUK (and Ireland) joins Schengen too. Simple solution is obvious, although probably highly politically unpopular... :roll:

I'm guessing that the little-Englanders who'd be against rUK joining Schengen are the same people who'd be glad to get rid of us Scots - so perhaps some clever policitian will take the opportunity to sell it as a quid pro quo

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are there not also Scottish adherents who would wear the Scottish mantle of the colloquially used terminology of "little Englanders" ?

 

[HSTEd]

If Scotland attempts to pursue the current immigration policy and the rest of the United KIngdom attempts to move to zero net migration as the Conservative party now apparently wants to.....

Border controls become an inevitability.

They will also be triggered when Scotland is required to join the EU from scratch and thus has to join Schengen (so far the only precedents for breaking up countries inside international agreements have been Yugoslavia and the USSR, in which case all seperatist states that were not already independently members of the UN had to rejoin - Ukraine did not because it has been a member of the UN since its founding).

 

[telstarbox]

How might Scottish independence affect the existing cross-border services (East Coast, XC and the Scotrail Sleeper?)

Would Network Rail have to split off its Scottish operation?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm guessing that the little-Englanders who'd be against rUK joining Schengen are the same people who'd be glad to get rid of us Scots - so perhaps some clever policitian will take the opportunity to sell it as a quid pro quo

Oh, so it‘s alright for the Scots to vote with their consciences, but if we do it, we‘re "little Englanders" eh?

We won‘t be joining Schengen any time soon. You‘ll have to adapt as best you see fit, much like the Irish Republic has had to.

 

[SkinnyDave]

If Scotland votes yes then I see no problems joining EU and the current rumblings in England of in/out referendum will help.
I don't see EU turning away a county with trillions worth of assets to be fair

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How might Scottish independence affect the existing cross-border services (East Coast, XC and the Scotrail Sleeper?)
Would Network Rail have to split off its Scottish operation?

There would have to deals between the governments.
It could go back to something like separate LNWR/Cal and GN+NER/NB operation, with joint ownership of cross-border services.
There would probably be no material change to franchises already let.
In any case VT/XC/EC etc all have a Scottish presence and are stakeholders in Scotland's future. They are "British" companies not "English".
Network Rail would certainly be split with NR Scotland owned/controlled by the SG, and there would be a Scottish ORR.
The NR debt would have to be split.
Scotland would still have to abide by EU railway policy (ie separation of track/operation, competition law and interoperability regs) and whatever the law of the land is (but Scotland could change its bit over time).

Another less disruptive way is to continue the current bodies/franchises etc, but with the management under joint control of a combined DfT/SG board.
But somehow I don't think Scotland will want this if they achieve independence - they'll be too drunk with power to want to share it...

In my view the unions have no business taking sides on the issue of independence.

 

[yorksrob]

In my view the unions have no business taking sides on the issue of independence.

Agreed. It's an issue for the Scots to sort out.

 

[chris89]

In my view the unions have no business taking sides on the issue of independence.

I couldn't agree more. Unions should be taking a neutral option for this.

I'm guessing that the little-Englanders who'd be against rUK joining Schengen are the same people who'd be glad to get rid of us Scots - so perhaps some clever policitian will take the opportunity to sell it as a quid pro quo

For the 'Little-Englanders' comment.....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The sudden advent of "ASLEF" threads as this one on this General Discussion forum and the one on the National Rail discussion forum, on their newly-found campaigning status, reminds me of the books written by Sarah Chauncey Woolsey, so we could now see....

What ASLEF did...

What ASLEF did next...

 

[Oswyntail]

Perhaps more relevant, would there have to be a split in ASLEF? And what are the relative memberships north and south? Would it be the case that, like the Labour Party, without Scottish members, a UK ASLEF would cease to have enough clout?

 

[telstarbox]

The sudden advent of "ASLEF" threads as this one on this General Discussion forum and the one on the National Rail discussion forum, on their newly-found campaigning status, reminds me of the books written by Sarah Chauncey Woolsey, so we could now see....

What ASLEF did...

What ASLEF did next...

Both threads relate to wider railway issues (refusing passengers travel/Scottish independence and the national network) - I just posted both at the same time because I read about one, then saw a story about the other (as you do on the web).

 

[tbtc]

In my view the unions have no business taking sides on the issue of independence

I agree.

Unions seem to think that they have a voice in any issue they stick their nose into - who honestly cares?

More annoying is the pettiness of the bold part of the quote from the first post on this thread:

"Delegates also agreed to affiliate to the Better Together campaign for Scotland to stay in the UK, despite concern from some that it had received funding from Conservative donors"

What? The Union can't be on the same side of an argument (an argument that splits a lot of people down the middle, an argument that there's no simple left/right to) that some Tories are in favour of? Petty?

 

[Butts]

This is all "hot air" and speculation , the vote will be to remain part of The United Kingdom when it comes next year.

As long as The Unionist Parties (Labour,Lib Dem and Tory)wish to retain The Union it will stay.

After the Vote further powers will be devolved to Scotland which have probably already been agreed "behind closed doors"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Both threads relate to wider railway issues (refusing passengers travel/Scottish independence and the national network) - I just posted both at the same time because I read about one, then saw a story about the other (as you do on the web).

Thanks for that clarification. I was wondering if those two threads, being launched at the same period of time, were to be a precursor of a whole range of such ASLEF threads.

 

[telstarbox]

Have no fear.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if Comrade Bob Crow is feeling a bit miffed and left-out of the media interest by the ASLEF sudden stealing of his usual RMT media thunder...

 

[kylemore]

I am sure that those ASLEF members in Scotland who are minded to vote YES will do so and those minded to vote NO will also do so without paying a blind bit of notice to this pronouncement. All rather pointless really.