Aslef strikes and OT ban called…

[Goldfish62]

I’m surprised the strikes have not gone over to midday to midday at any point so far. Staggered days for differing TOCs this time but expect that could come in the next wave as and when more dates are announced.

If they haven't done that in the past 18 months I'm not sure why they'd suddenly start after all this time. But maybe they will.

Not that it will make any difference to the government/RDG!

 

[CFRAIL]

I've suggested midday to midday for a while

 

[dk1]

I've suggested midday to midday for a while

It certainly can be more disruptive over two days with just a single days pay lost for each member.

 

[footprints]

I’m surprised the strikes have not gone over to midday to midday at any point so far. Staggered days for differing TOCs this time but expect that could come in the next wave as and when more dates are announced.

Won't make much difference in the next round when 40% of trains have to run.

 

[OneOfThe48]

If these go ahead will there definitely be no London-Brighton trains on 6th December? In fact any trains from anywhere to Brighton? Thanks

There will likely be Thameslink trains to Brighton. How many there are each hour is to be seen.

 

[dk1]

Won't make much difference in the next round when 40% of trains have to run.

Interesting times. We’ll have to see how that pans out.

 

[baz962]

Interesting times. We’ll have to see how that pans out.

With another thread on this forum stating that the government are looking to hand the reins back to the operators , I would like to think that they would step away from dictating pay deals.

 

[dk1]

With another thread on this forum stating that the government are looking to hand the reins back to the operators , I would like to think that they would step away from dictating pay deals.

You'd like to think so. They have shown they are pretty rubbish at it,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2023 ==

Won't make much difference in the next round when 40% of trains have to run.

Only 40% of trains on selected routes however from how I read it.

 

[Class 317]

You'd like to think so. They have shown they are pretty rubbish at it,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2023 ==


Only 40% of trains on selected routes however from how I read it.

The selected routes only apply to Network Rail strikes.

TOC is 40% of normal service.

 

[172007]

The selected routes only apply to Network Rail strikes.

TOC is 40% of normal service.

So trains either AM or PM but not both? The legal arguments will go on and on over intentions, interpretation and application of the legislation.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

So trains either AM or PM but not both? The legal arguments will go on and on over intentions, interpretation and application of the legislation.

On the assumption that 40% is TOC based, and not across the whole network (not sure if that's the case):
40% could be relatively full service for one peak, but that's less useful than more peak-time trains running. (e.g. delete many counter-commutes or lesser used lines)
Northern with their massive network could cull lots of services on some lines, enough for them to run 100% for commuters.
Likewise any TOC could probably cancel off-peak diagrams, keeping the peak time ones (maybe handy for increasing fares too ) to keep 80% of passengers but 40% of services.

We'll have to see how this legislation plays out.

 

[dk1]

The selected routes only apply to Network Rail strikes.

TOC is 40% of normal service.

I can’t keep up

 

[startingaparty]

Does anyone know what the ticket acceptance situation will be? Will tickets dated any day that week be valid at anytime that week? As people might need to use different operators to make connections. Hope that makes sense.

I have a split ticket from Manchester to London using Avanti on Friday 8th December. However, I am initially travelling from Chorley to Manchester using my annual season ticket. Would it be possible for me to travel on Thursday using Avanti instead otherwise I have no way of getting to Manchester to make the train on Friday.

So, CRL to MAN using annual season ticket, MCR to STA off peak return and STA to EUS advanced single.

 

[Facing Back]

On the assumption that 40% is TOC based, and not across the whole network (not sure if that's the case):
40% could be relatively full service for one peak, but that's less useful than more peak-time trains running. (e.g. delete many counter-commutes or lesser used lines)
Northern with their massive network could cull lots of services on some lines, enough for them to run 100% for commuters.
Likewise any TOC could probably cancel off-peak diagrams, keeping the peak time ones (maybe handy for increasing fares too ) to keep 80% of passengers but 40% of services.

We'll have to see how this legislation plays out.

Quote from the government policy approach document:

Train operation services​

Where the MSL is the provision of the train operation services necessary to operate the equivalent of 40% of the operator’s timetabled services (by reference to the National Rail Timetable). This will enable the delivery of a considerable improvement in the service experienced during strikes by staff at train operators and is proportionate in ensuring that staff are still able to take strike action that will have an impact. Aggregate (national) service levels could be higher than 40% because some TOCs may be able to operate higher service levels without using an MSL or because they are not affected by the strike (so are able to operate normal service levels).

I read that as each TOC can mandate the staff required to run 40% of the timetabled services on the day on the strike and can choose which ones to run - whether it is smooth across the day, or skewed towards peak hours is up to them. It is specific to a each TOC. If only 1 TOC is on strike then they will run 40% of their services and as all other TOCs will be at 100% ( ) then the UK will be running well over 40%.

I have little doubt that the TOCs will push to run services which maximise passenger volumes and the unions will push to run services which minimise the number of staff who are told to come to work.

As you say, we'll have to see how this plays out - I would be astonished if there were not a number of cases at the courts very quickly to generate the precendent and case law.

​

 

[trundlewagon]

I have little doubt that the TOCs will push to run services which maximise passenger volumes

I expect they'll take the easy option, which is try and run something along the lines of the limited service that runs when the RMT have been on strike.

 

[Goldfish62]

I expect they'll take the easy option, which is try and run something along the lines of the limited service that runs when the RMT have been on strike.

In the case of SWR that's been nowhere near 40%, either in terms of number of services operated or network coverage.

 

[newtownmgr]

The minimum service level is seen as pretty much unworkable inside the railway industry. I’m sure those that have studied it will have noticed that the government have pretty much put all the responsibility on to the TOC’s to enact it etc so when/if it goes wrong or any particular toc doesn’t enact it the toc will carry the blame & not the government.

As regards those TOC’s that are striking on Sunday 3rd December that don’t have commited Sundays,they will not be running any services. As you can’t force anyone to work on what is a voluntary day anyway,regardless of whether they have a booked turn in the link or not. I suspect given the timescale to organise & implement a min service very few if any companies will implement a service this time round.

Hopefully if the Aslef re ballot returns a yes vote & the RMT accept the offer, that Harper might actually agree to talks that the aslef have been available for, although after his frankly ridiculous comments & lies in front of the transport select committee last week he might have to do some serious backtracking

 

[Facing Back]

I expect they'll take the easy option, which is try and run something along the lines of the limited service that runs when the RMT have been on strike.

Mark Harper was quite explicit in the last transport select committee that he would not force TOCs to use the tools the act gives them. And they have no real financial incentive at the moment to irritate the unions

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Mark Harper was quite explicit in the last transport select committee that he would not force TOCs to use the tools the act gives them.

That makes it sound like the law was introduced just for public posturing purposes so they could say "We're doing something about it!" without actually doing anything about it?

 

[Confused52]

That makes it sound like the law was introduced just for public posturing purposes so they could say "We're doing something about it!" without actually doing anything about it?

I listened to Harper and my reading of it was that the TOCs don't have to use work orders but they will still be judged on reaching 40% of services. They can choose to take the risk but realise that they are putting their contract appraisal at risk if they fail to run the service that they could have done if they had used work orders. It's just another example of Magical thinking on here.

 

[XIX7007177]

That makes it sound like the law was introduced just for public posturing purposes so they could say "We're doing something about it!" without actually doing anything about it?

Politics in a nutshell.

 

[Class 170101]

As a reminder, ASLEF's constitution, unlike that of the RMT and others, does not allow them to put offers to members that they cannot recommend.

So there's only three ways out of this, apart from breaking the constitution:
1. Receiving an offer from RDG that can be recommended.
2. Changing the constitution to allow members to vote on any offer, not just those that are recommended.
3. Recommending the current offer.

I can't think of any other way out of this.

Peter

4. Change in the law - any offer made has to be put to a vote.

Actually surprised the government didn't try this (or something like it) to make it a legal requirement for an offer to be put forward and voted upon before a strike ballot could be called.

 

[Val3ntine]

This whole relaxation of just “changing the law” to suit agendas is worrying. Similar to that of the Rwanda/Stop the boats saga currently ongoing. Very worrying times indeed.

 

[Facing Back]

I listened to Harper and my reading of it was that the TOCs don't have to use work orders but they will still be judged on reaching 40% of services. They can choose to take the risk but realise that they are putting their contract appraisal at risk if they fail to run the service that they could have done if they had used work orders. It's just another example of Magical thinking on here.

I was wondering something similar and had a quick look at a pro-forma NRC and there doesn't seem to be a mechanism where the DfT can force this issue - so it would be soft pressure. With the recent comments on moving back to revenue staying with the TOC then the incentive to implement it may well significantly increase - depending on the strike provisions in the contract - so I'd certainly expect to see it bite more then, if it doesn't before.

 

[185143]

First thought:
Can the TOCs decide which 40% of trains they're running and then cancel them "due to a short notice change to the timetable"?

Secondly, and this is a more serious suggestion, would TOCs possibly be better considering running trains at the extreme times of the day when there are fewer/no alternatives? Eg Thameslink focusing on the overnight trains which could probably run a normal service without safety concerns of the peak trains being swamped. Just say there are none, don't travel as per current practice. Same for TPE, run the overnight stuff that leaves/arrives at Manchester Airport in times for the airport staff and people arriving/departing on very early/late flights, and little else?

 

[172007]

I think some Tocs may well just run th3 cheapest trains to operate economically and full the 40% quota that way and thereby maximise their revenue.

 

[renegademaster]

This whole relaxation of just “changing the law” to suit agendas is worrying. Similar to that of the Rwanda/Stop the boats saga currently ongoing. Very worrying times indeed.

Governments change laws , that is their job, it isn't the sacred duty of the government to keep the statue book the same it was in 1997 for all eternity

 

[Val3ntine]

Governments change laws , that is their job, it isn't the sacred duty of the government to keep the statue book the same it was in 1997 for all eternity

And it’s totally unheard of for people to abuse powers of their jobs? But yes, lets do as everyone wishes rail unions would do and just put up and shut up I guess.

 

[syorksdeano]

I've seen people mention change in the law, however how would that effect the current situation?

For example, when a new criminal law comes in anyone committing the offence before the law changed is charged under the old law (the law at the time).

Given that this dispute has gone on for nearly 2 years, then surely the new law wouldn't effect the current dispute.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've seen people mention change in the law, however how would that effect the current situation?

For example, when a new criminal law comes in anyone committing the offence before the law changed is charged under the old law (the law at the time).

Given that this dispute has gone on for nearly 2 years, then surely the new law wouldn't effect the current dispute.

It‘s a law about when strikes are held, not when disputes are voted on.