Aslef strikes and OT ban called…

[dk1]

That Scottish minister ran up an £11k bill when his kids used his ipad to watch football - there is precedent....

 

[baz962]

It is in many industries - to and from a base of working. As a few responders have mentioned though different companies provide various abouts of flexibility here - from firing (not uncommon in retail) to asking you to taking a days vacation to providing a taxi as a matter of course - I was curious if there was a general approach in the rail industry

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2023 ==


That Scottish minister ran up an £11k bill when his kids used his ipad to watch football - there is precedent....

It would also depend on how often. I guess if someone wasn't coming in to work or coming in late everyday, they might be in bother. It would be hard to discipline someone who is in every day and almost never sick and always on time , for a one off strike day and particularly short sighted for an otherwise exemplary employee.

 

[Starmill]

Not disputing Avanti have a shortage of drivers but the December cutbacks only highlight that drivers aren't working overtime regardless of the Aslef blanket bans across all TOCs in the dispute. They've run their full timetable during previous overtime bans so there's no reason this next overtime ban will impact them anymore than usual, especially with them having already reduced the timetable.

I don't really see how splitting hairs over whether the trains are p-coded or cancelled on the morning makes any difference to what I was saying. You admit they're short of drivers either way. You admit drivers are working to rule. I said it would be more difficult than usual because this means less capacity than usual is being provided. I don't see how that's up for debate. I didn't say that it would make the journey impossible or anything similar, just that the risk of a delay or not getting a seat would be worse than usual. Perhaps that person making that journey will travel and will get lucky that they experience no delays, or only a short delay, and they are able to find a seat. Perhaps they won't, isn't it sensible for them to understand that in advance?

 

[Facing Back]

I think it's a mistake and is meant to say £3k per minute.

If it was right, I think the Railway would actually provide a remarkably good public service for just £1mill per annum...

Any big firm would write a check in a heartbeat if it got their staff to work reliably. Its "loose" change to them. I was more interested in the proofing process if this is an "official" RDG release. The rest of it mirrors the comments Mark Harper made yesterday at the transport select committee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2023 ==

It would also depend on how often. I guess if someone wasn't coming in to work or coming in late everyday, they might be in bother. It would be hard to discipline someone who is in every day and almost never sick and always on time , for a one off strike day and particularly short sighted for an otherwise exemplary employee.

Which would be reasonable.

 

[Starmill]

It is in many industries - to and from a base of working. As a few responders have mentioned though different companies provide various abouts of flexibility here - from firing (not uncommon in retail) to asking you to taking a days vacation to providing a taxi as a matter of course - I was curious if there was a general approach in the rail industry

I think that insofar as there is a general approach is that employees find their way to work using their own means. If there's a genuinely exceptional circumstance such as severe flooding or very heavy snow, or something affecting the health of their children or vulnerable family members, and travel weren't possible, they would likely be offered a day of unpaid leave, or they might be able to take it as emergency annual leave also, outside of the usual roster arrangements they have.

 

[xtpe]

No problem. It is all very dependent on where you work and what you do. The TOCs in general are very good at providing taxis to ensure vital staff are able to work as normal. Don’t mean it to come out like that so sorry if it sounded a little curt.

Actually some TOCs have taxi agreements.for drivers that start or finish between certain hours, and are guaranteed a taxi to or from work with no questions asked

 

[dk1]

Actually some TOCs have taxi agreements.for drivers that start or finish between certain hours, and are guaranteed a taxi to or from work with no questions asked

Yes Liverpool Street (Anglia Railways) have that as their car parking was removed when the station was redeveloped many years ago and is written into traincrew depot agreements.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Is this for real? Is it only £3k per day ie £1m per year - that is a rounding error for a large company? Loosing? As it "the archer finished loosing his arrows"?

Yes, have edited my comment to provide a link.

 

[Facing Back]

Yes, have edited my comment to provide a link.

Thanks. Ah - its transcribed by a journalist rather than issued by the RDG. It makes more sense now.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't really see how splitting hairs over whether the trains are p-coded or cancelled on the morning makes any difference to what I was saying. You admit they're short of drivers either way.

The most recent figures show no Avanti trains P-coded due to lack of train crew (table 1)

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/cwegr44q/passenger-rail-performance-cancellations-data-period-7.pdf

 

[johncrossley]

That's my whole team at work shafted on 8 December for our Christmas meal out. I'd already started driving to work because I was fed up of Northern's lousy way of dealing with issues that cause disruption after paying £7.50 for the privilege of a journey I can make on £4.50 of petrol in half the time.

You can't rely on trains for events more than two weeks in advance. If such advance booking is unavoidable then it is essential that you already have a plan B in case there is a train strike. The safer option is simply to book alternative transport for any event more than two weeks in advance, such as coaches, car hire or air travel. It is too late once a strike is called as you will find everything booked up.

 

[ComUtoR]

They've run their full timetable during previous overtime bans so there's no reason this next overtime ban will impact them anymore than usual, especially with them having already reduced the timetable.

You are missing the other side of the coin. The strikes do not just affect the service. There is an impact the day to day operation of the TOC. There may be a rest day ban for a week or two but rest day working is still at through the roof.

 

[footprints]

You are missing the other side of the coin. The strikes do not just affect the service. There is an impact the day to day operation of the TOC. There may be a rest day ban for a week or two but rest day working is still at through the roof.

Oh I know, not disputing that, just saying in terms of the timetable during the overtime ban that Avanti are one of the operators it should affect the least, compared to those TOCs where drivers are ordinarily still volunteering to do overtime.

 

[duffield]

I will be travelling home from a couple of days in Leicester on Saturday 2nd December which is the day of strike action on EMR. I can’t really cancel because I‘ve got a couple of events booked and I don’t want to take my car as my hotel is in city centre. I am now expecting a journey home of over 3 hours involving 3 buses. If EMR do manage to run a limited service at least for the main part of my journey between Leicester and Nottingham that will be a nice surprise, but I’m not really expecting it.

Three hours from Leicester to Nottingham? You could potentially do it in 2 hours 15 minutes using Cross Country and changing at Birmingham if there are no EMR services (trains might be overcrowded - but then again, might be half-empty due to people just hearing "strike" and not travelling).

 

[1D54]

Or use the Skylink services changing at East Midlands Airport for £2 a trip. Should do it in a couple of hours.

 

[ComUtoR]

Oh I know, not disputing that, just saying in terms of the timetable during the overtime ban that Avanti are one of the operators it should affect the least, compared to those TOCs where drivers are ordinarily still volunteering to do overtime.

Cancel trains or reduce the timetable. I'm not sure that rose smells any different.

 

[DennisM]

If an RMT duplicate offer is made to ASLEF, what will happen to the TOCs that have only joined the dispute this year? I believe c2c and SWR are only overdue pay rises from this year, so wouldn't benefit from the government settling last years pay deal.
Would they remain in dispute on their own, or be expected to take one for the team, end their dispute, and hope talks in the spring brings an offer that benefits them?

 

[irish_rail]

Aslef's claims that this latest round of strikes will "ramp up the pressure" on the Government is laughable. The Government is under no pressure at all to resolve the dispute. They're barely even newsworthy anymore.

Weekday strikes will just see people work from home. The public are well versed in working round the weekend walkouts. That will be easier this time round with the fragmented strike days.

Mick Whelan can say he wants a bumper no-strings pay rise all he wants. All he has to show for nearly a year and half of strike action is several days of lost wages for his members.

Be in no doubt , 99 percent of Aslef members are firmly behind Mick Whelan and Aslefs stance. Support for the action is very very high, and Mr Whelan is doing what his members demand. It's pretty obvious that Mick, and the vast majority of the driving grade , would, in reality happily take 5 percent with no strings attached. If it's good enough for the RMT then why not Aslef? This is pure ideology from Dft, and it is so sad that it is inconvencing passengers, most drivers do have a fair amount of empathy for the hard pressed travelling public.

 

[Starmill]

Aslef's claims that this latest round of strikes will "ramp up the pressure" on the Government is laughable. The Government is under no pressure at all to resolve the dispute. They're barely even newsworthy anymore.

Why have the government authorised an offer to non-drivers that's likely to be accepted then?

 

[ChrisC]

Three hours from Leicester to Nottingham? You could potentially do it in 2 hours 15 minutes using Cross Country and changing at Birmingham if there are no EMR services (trains might be overcrowded - but then again, might be half-empty due to people just hearing "strike" and not travelling).

Or use the Skylink services changing at East Midlands Airport for £2 a trip. Should do it in a couple of hours.

I didn’t actually say Leicester to Nottingham, I said Leicester to home, where Leicester to Nottingham is the main leg of my journey. Home is a village in Nottinghamshire which is another 45 minute bus ride from Nottingham. I was originally going to get the train as far as Hucknall and then just do the last bit of the journey by bus. The quickest journey by bus is Skylink from Leicester to Loughborough then Kinchbus 9 from Loughborough to Nottingham. This is quicker than going via East Midlands Airport. I then have 40 minutes in Nottingham before the departure of my hourly bus home.

 

[CFRAIL]

How much will the overtime ban affect SWR and Southeastern, hoping to be able to see a friend in Southampton.

Very little (if any) on Southeastern

 

[Facing Back]

Why have the government authorised an offer to non-drivers that's likely to be accepted then?

That's the million dollar question. My guess (which in not popular here) is that the government have offered the slightest concession to allow the RMT to put the 2022 pay offer to their members. All of the substantive changes to T&C's were in phase 2 and were to be negotiated at the TOC level in any case. That argument was not planned for now and nothing suggests that it is off the table.

I imagine that they will see how it develops and fine tune their approach before talking to ASLEF

All guess work from me

 

[Trainguy34]

Very little (if any) on Southeastern

Even just an overtime ban, not even a strike?
Hopefully not too bad as I've booked the hotel.

 

[whoosh]

Aslef's claims that this latest round of strikes will "ramp up the pressure" on the Government is laughable. The Government is under no pressure at all to resolve the dispute. They're barely even newsworthy anymore.

Weekday strikes will just see people work from home. The public are well versed in working round the weekend walkouts. That will be easier this time round with the fragmented strike days.

Mick Whelan can say he wants a bumper no-strings pay rise all he wants. All he has to show for nearly a year and half of strike action is several days of lost wages for his members.

Apart from he hasn't. At Open Access Operators, Elizabeth Line, London Overground, and all the Freight companies, Scotrail, and Merseyrail, deals below inflation have been done. "Bumper?"
Transport for Wales had many productivity changes to it's multi-year deal, and was still below inflation.

There needs to be negotiation on a TOC by TOC basis as they are all on different terms and conditions. This has been said all along, and, it seems, sense has prevailed with the new offer to RMT in this regard.
Ask yourself why the government has not allowed a similar offer to be made to ASLEF.

I imagine it's so they can come and save the day by enacting their Minimum Sevice legislation, and come over all hero-esque. When the whole reason this dispute has taken place was because of the government not allowing the TOCs to discuss pay with the rail unions in the first place. They have scuppered the post pandemic recovery of the railways and the wider economy to achieve this.

 

[footprints]

Apart from he hasn't.

He's said it only this week:

'We are determined to win this dispute,’ said Mick Whelan, ASLEF’s general secretary. ‘And get a significant pay rise for train drivers who have not had an increase since 2019 while the cost of living, in that time, has soared.

ASLEF: train drivers' union sets more strikes | ASLEF

After Mark Harper disingenuously told a House of Commons Select Committee that there is 'an offer on the table' - there isn't as he well knows - we have announced a new programme of rolling strikes

aslef.org.uk

 

[Horizon22]

Projecting all of this to one plausible outcome
The unreliability of the Railway (from whatever cause including ongoing strikes and other action) drives increasing numbers of those most directly and immediately affected - the passengers - to seek ways of avoiding rail travel; whether that be even more "working from home" or self-driving or anything else. And in so doing triggers a level of passenger attrition that results in a reduction of services and potentially network. Which, in turn, results in a reduction in railway jobs. Taken to its extreme, the railway becomes as much of an irrelevance as the mines did.

Well the recent passenger numbers report states passenger numbers (not revenue importantly) are still increasing from Covid, so this isn’t necessarily happening.

Occasional strike days are a blip in overall data, although it does erode some trust about reliability generally.

 

[NI 271]

He's said it only this week:

ASLEF: train drivers' union sets more strikes | ASLEF

After Mark Harper disingenuously told a House of Commons Select Committee that there is 'an offer on the table' - there isn't as he well knows - we have announced a new programme of rolling strikes

aslef.org.uk

"significant" ≠ "bumper"

 

[Harpers Tate]

Well the recent passenger numbers report states passenger numbers (not revenue importantly) are still increasing from Covid, so this isn’t necessarily happening.

Occasional strike days are a blip in overall data, although it does erode some trust about reliability generally.

Sure. But as many industries ultimately discover - there is a time-lag between the stimulus and its effect. People take time to (for example) "get fed up with how bad it is", take more time to find their alternative and once they have, then and only then - it may be years later - does this occur in great enough numbers to be material. The dismal state of many bus services, and/or the ever increasing demand for subsidy to maintain them is, I suspect, at least in part (if not totally) down to operators slowly eroding their product and users even more slowly migrating away - into cars, mostly. That has taken 20 years or so. It's not just transport; one can look deeper into many once-popular failures and see a similar pattern. One example that was the subject of a fairly revealing factual (?) TV series was the once ubiquitous "Little Chef" chain, which saw new owners erode the product and enjoy greater margins, until the inertial effect of what they used to be dissipated and their customer base along with it.

 

[Granpuff]

If these go ahead will there definitely be no London-Brighton trains on 6th December? In fact any trains from anywhere to Brighton? Thanks

 

[dk1]

I’m surprised the strikes have not gone over to midday to midday at any point so far. Staggered days for differing TOCs this time but expect that could come in the next wave as and when more dates are announced.