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ASLEF push for more female and BAME drivers

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GrimShady

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The point is to find the people that are competent. I guarantee that there are a lot of young people, BAME people, and females that are more than capable of driving a train and want to do it. The question is, as asked right at the beginning of the thread, why aren't they applying?
That's what ASLEF are trying to find out and trying to overcome these concerns against the job that these people have, to say 'you think the job is like this, and that's why you don't want to do it. But if we can show you that it isn't and your concerns are unfounded, why not apply?'

Life Choices

I am a white, heterosexual, nominally Christian male born and living in a Western democracy. That makes me pretty much one of the most privileged people in the world. I don't what's disgusting about being referred to as such, because it's true. The sooner people like me realise that a lot of the problems in the world are caused by people like me, the better it will be.

If you choose to believe that EM2 that's fine. I will not be used in identity politics or share blame in what others of my kind have been accused of perceived or otherwise.

Having been part of interviewing panel's and having to listen to the anti male rubbish (which I strongly objected to) that's spread today I am fully convinced that equality is not what is being sought, it is in fact hate speech by another name.
 
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Esker-pades

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When I get to a PC I will do just that. It was a response to the accusation that I had just pulled the "instances of discrimination" arguement on the BBC news site out of nowhere, there is todays proof.
"It's ALL you hear about! BBC news is riddled with this stuff EVERY DAY" was your original comment. 1 from the entire BBC News website is hardly riddled.

I find the the term "privileged white males" equally disgusting! Then again us sort don't count do we?
I'm unsure how you know what my skin colour, race or gender is.

Also I'm not really interested in convincing anyone of my view point. The facts are there for anyone to see. Have a look at Sweden where social engineering has been on the go for a long time. What was the result? More division in gender roles!
"LINE!" You've got a full line on my alt-right bingo card. I claim my prize.
 

GrimShady

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"It's ALL you hear about! BBC news is riddled with this stuff EVERY DAY" was your original comment. 1 from the entire BBC News website is hardly riddled.


I'm unsure how you know what my skin colour, race or gender is.


"LINE!" You've got a full line on my alt-right bingo card. I claim my prize.

As I said, more to come.

Who cares really what you are?

Great! So now I'm a member of the alt right racists for having different views, wrong old son, try again. Notice how I haven't pegged you politically so please don't do the same to me thanks.
 
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irish_rail

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I am a white, heterosexual, nominally Christian male born and living in a Western democracy. That makes me pretty much one of the most privileged people in the world. I don't what's disgusting about being referred to as such, because it's true. The sooner people like me realise that a lot of the problems in the world are caused by people like me, the better it will be.
Agreed, brexit being one of those problems thrust upon us by white straight males however to say that those of us driving trains who are white males are somehow not deserving and should feel a sense of guilt is quite ridiculous. Like many others I worked bloody hard to become a train driver jumping through numerous hoops and hurdles , and anyone who suggests I and others got the role on account of our backgrounds are down right wrong!
 

GrimShady

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Agreed, brexit being one of those problems thrust upon us by white straight males however to say that those of us driving trains who are white males are somehow not deserving and should feel a sense of guilt is quite ridiculous. Like many others I worked bloody hard to become a train driver jumping through numerous hoops and hurdles , and anyone who suggests I and others got the role on account of our backgrounds are down right wrong!

Well put Irish Rail. I do not subscribe to the self hatred that's being displayed these days. I got to my position by hard work, determination and ability.

I have a serious issue with identity politics and how it's managed to infect the minds of otherwise smart people.
 

GrimShady

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I didn't say you were alt-right, I just said I'd managed to tick off a number of things on said bingo card.

If that helps you to make sense of the world then enjoy.

I don't need to put everyone in little categories.
 

EM2

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Like many others I worked bloody hard to become a train driver jumping through numerous hoops and hurdles , and anyone who suggests I and others got the role on account of our backgrounds are down right wrong!
Has anyone said that? The point is people like you and me and GrimShady are overwhelmingly the sort of people that apply, even when there are thousands of people who are not like us that could do the job. And the question is why don't they apply?
Do they have preconceptions about what it entails? Do they have preconceptions about the application processes, or the training, or the conditions?
If the industry can demolish those preconceptions, we get talented people who can do the job, and do it well. Everyone's a winner.
 

GrimShady

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Has anyone said that? The point is people like you and me and GrimShady are overwhelmingly the sort of people that apply, even when there are thousands of people who are not like us that could do the job. And the question is why don't they apply?
Do they have preconceptions about what it entails? Do they have preconceptions about the application processes, or the training, or the conditions?
If the industry can demolish those preconceptions, we get talented people who can do the job, and do it well. Everyone's a winner.

The terminology being used says exactly that EM2. FYI you've replied to Irish Rail. The fact is certain types of jobs will always appeal to either mostly males or females, or indeed a masculine or feminine personality. That will always be the case, it's the way our brains are wired up. As I said earlier why isn't there a drive to get men into traditional female roles? We should be extremely careful of setting gender/race quotas or brainwashing young white men into believing that they're part of some world wide problem. I have witnessed these quotas with shipping companies.

There's probably a large volume of males who wouldn't consider applying either due to various preconceived notions of the job. I know a few that wouldn't even consider it due to the shift work, working hours, conditions.
 
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AlterEgo

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Agreed, brexit being one of those problems thrust upon us by white straight males however to say that those of us driving trains who are white males are somehow not deserving and should feel a sense of guilt is quite ridiculous. Like many others I worked bloody hard to become a train driver jumping through numerous hoops and hurdles , and anyone who suggests I and others got the role on account of our backgrounds are down right wrong!

Nobody is saying you got it because you are a white man, but it is likely that there were a lot of people from BAME backgrounds or who are women, who could compete for the job but didn’t apply for whatever reason.
 

EM2

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The terminology being used says exactly that EM2. FYI you've replied to Irish Rail.
Yes I. That's why I said 'you and me and GrimShady', because you're both making similar points.
As I said earlier why isn't there a drive to get men into traditional female roles?
There have. Just in the last few years, I can remember campaigns to recruit more male nurses, more male midwives, and more male primary school teachers.
We should be extremely careful of setting gender/race quotas or brainwashing young white men into believing that they're part of some world wide problem. I have witnessed these quotas with shipping companies.
No-one is setting quotas. It's about getting the best talent, no matter what demographic they belong to. Surely it's obvious that if you have a bigger talent pool, you'll find better talent?
There's probably a large volume of males who wouldn't consider applying either due to various preconceived notions of the job. I know a few that wouldn't even consider it due to the shift work, working hours, conditions.
There are. I'm one of them, for a start. But I know about the job, and why it's not suitable for me. Most women, especially young BAME women, don't, so have no idea whether they'd want to do the job or not.
Although I will add that of the drivers I know, two are women, and one is a BAME woman under 35, so I know that there are *some*.
 

irish_rail

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If a person (be they male female black white etc etc) wants to achieve something they will set out and do it.
Encouraging people who are not particularly fussed about a career but the salary looks good so why not just for the hell of it, will only end in tears for the candidate and the TOC. Driver training is a tough intense year , and those without the drive and commitment will soon fall away, wasting their time and the TOCs.
 

irish_rail

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And i will also add let's be frank, the shift work is extremely tough, one week getting up at 4am the next week going to bed at 2am then a week of night shifts. It isn't for everybody. Another reason why TOCs should be aiming to recruit driven individuals who really want to be train drivers, not just those who see a politically correct advert and like the look of the salary.
 

deltic

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Have you ever asked why there are very few BAME train drivers in the UK yet Indian railways for example have 25m people applying for jobs https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ly-for-indian-railway-vacancies-idUSKBN1H524C (obviously not all train drivers). Heathrow Express has around 40% female drivers and MTR Crossrail 12%. Its about ensuring the widest pool of people are aware of the opportunities, how to apply and what skills are needed not political correctness.
 

bramling

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If a person (be they male female black white etc etc) wants to achieve something they will set out and do it.
Encouraging people who are not particularly fussed about a career but the salary looks good so why not just for the hell of it, will only end in tears for the candidate and the TOC. Driver training is a tough intense year , and those without the drive and commitment will soon fall away, wasting their time and the TOCs.

Have to agree with this. Whilst it’s a job which the right person can make appear easy, reality is it can be tough. Anyone serious about applying should be doing their research, not just fancying the look of a magazine ad.
 

irish_rail

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Have you ever asked why there are very few BAME train drivers in the UK yet Indian railways for example have 25m people applying for jobs https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ly-for-indian-railway-vacancies-idUSKBN1H524C (obviously not all train drivers). Heathrow Express has around 40% female drivers and MTR Crossrail 12%. Its about ensuring the widest pool of people are aware of the opportunities, how to apply and what skills are needed not political correctness.
Not quite sure comparing the UK with a country who's population is 1 billion is quite fair. Also bare in mind, unlike in this country, if you are not working you are starving so it's hardly surprising.
 

GrimShady

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Yes I. That's why I said 'you and me and GrimShady', because you're both making similar points.

There have. Just in the last few years, I can remember campaigns to recruit more male nurses, more male midwives, and more male primary school teachers.

No-one is setting quotas. It's about getting the best talent, no matter what demographic they belong to. Surely it's obvious that if you have a bigger talent pool, you'll find better talent?
There are. I'm one of them, for a start. But I know about the job, and why it's not suitable for me. Most women, especially young BAME women, don't, so have no idea whether they'd want to do the job or not.
Although I will add that of the drivers I know, two are women, and one is a BAME woman under 35, so I know that there are *some*.

Apologies, I didn't read the first part fully.

I don't doubt your word there has been drives but there very much in the minority and doesn't attract the same media coverage for example.

I have witnessed quotas taking place in the last 10 years and it's disgraceful.

There's not enough time off in the job for me personally, not enough money, also I don't want to be stuck in Multiple Units all day, Locos on the other hand!... :D. The other major turn off was the requirement at many TOCs to have experience as a guard for many years before being considered for driving.

If a person (be they male female black white etc etc) wants to achieve something they will set out and do it.
Encouraging people who are not particularly fussed about a career but the salary looks good so why not just for the hell of it, will only end in tears for the candidate and the TOC. Driver training is a tough intense year , and those without the drive and commitment will soon fall away, wasting their time and the TOCs.
And i will also add let's be frank, the shift work is extremely tough, one week getting up at 4am the next week going to bed at 2am then a week of night shifts. It isn't for everybody. Another reason why TOCs should be aiming to recruit driven individuals who really want to be train drivers, not just those who see a politically correct advert and like the look of the salary.

Agreed Irish Rail. People will natural seeking out employment that suits them. We've suffered a huge turnover in trainee Officers (mostly females) solely because the picture painted to them was not a true reflection of the job. Waste of money, time and resources, particularly when woman are concerned as not long after qualifying they all leave to start families. It's just not a career that suits their biology, nothing to do with ability. As for minorities, well lol, that's just not an issue at sea. Its very much the "white males" that are under represented.

Recruitment should be blind to characteristics however does it make good business sense to employ those who are highly likely to leave in a few years?
 
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irish_rail

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The real losers with this type of compaign are the young white males starting out in the world dreaming of becoming train drivers (many of the like on here no doubt) who will face an even bigger hill to climb to achieve their dreams. I'd say I would probably have no chance of becoming a train Driver if I was setting out to do it now, I was lucky I did it when I did , before campaigns such as this, and the crazy world of extreme positive discrimination.
 

irish_rail

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Some stats on the only 4 female high speed drivers at my depot.
1x just had her key taken off her due to numerous incidents
1x off long term sick
1x off trains due to a grievance
1x rarely drives trains as she is too busy on radio stations talking about the rest of us being male pale and stale.
Another came to the depot for a year, went off sick almost straight away and never drove a train here before going back to where she came from.
And guess who carries the burden for these? Everyone else.
 

tiptoptaff

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The real losers with this type of compaign are the young white males starting out in the world dreaming of becoming train drivers (many of the like on here no doubt) who will face an even bigger hill to climb to achieve their dreams. I'd say I would probably have no chance of becoming a train Driver if I was setting out to do it now, I was lucky I did it when I did , before campaigns such as this, and the crazy world of extreme positive discrimination.
I'm a young white male. I have a driver's job, I start a week Monday. Give over
 

tiptoptaff

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Some stats on the only 4 female high speed drivers at my depot.
1x just had her key taken off her due to numerous incidents
1x off long term sick
1x off trains due to a grievance
1x rarely drives trains as she is too busy on radio stations talking about the rest of us being male pale and stale.
Another came to the depot for a year, went off sick almost straight away and never drove a train here before going back to where she came from.
And guess who carries the burden for these? Everyone else.
Yet must we gloss over the number of male drivers who also have these kinds of incidents happen?

HeX has 40% female drivers and before we took over, it was internal recruitment only. Which meant that had a higher % pool of women who could/would apply. So what does it tell you? More women apply, you get more women drivers. Because they are capable.
It is hard to get a drivers job now because lots and lots of people want to do it, because of the pay. Nothing to do with being a white male.
 

irish_rail

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I'm a young white male. I have a driver's job, I start a week Monday. Give over
Well give yourself some credit you have obviously done phenomenally well and give yourself a pat on the back. But if it was a toss up between giving you the job or a female candidate to take last place it's a safe bet you would have lost out.
 

tiptoptaff

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Well give yourself some credit you have obviously done phenomenally well and give yourself a pat on the back. But if it was a toss up between giving you the job or a female candidate to take last place it's a safe bet you would have lost out.
I was interviewed by a female, wait for it, DSM!!!

There are a fair few more female drivers at my depot, a lot of them internal promotions. A group of females whom are far more aware of the job than females outside the industry, and as such a higher percentage of successful applicants are female. Same with the BAME drivers we have.

What it shows is that by encouraging more of the people in these groups to apply, you start to get more of them employed. Which gives support to the suggestion that we're not getting the best candidates that are out there, because the "best" candidates aren't applying
 

tiptoptaff

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Also, FWIW, what is wrong with dedicated fixed block links?

Provided nights were still shared out, I'd happily work permanent earlies or permanent lates, as it would be far less damaging to my body clock than the current mixed rosters.

If that is the way the job goes to appeal to a wider pool of talent, then its fine with me.
 

baz962

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As many others on here, I am fully supportive of the best people getting the job, regardless of race, religion and gender. I myself am White, straight and old. Before I started with my toc, who were majorly supportive, I was unsuccessful at dmi with a different toc and almost certainly due to my age. Before both of these I saw and advert on mums net for trainee drivers with mtr. This idea that we should try and get different recruitment advertising does make me wonder. I put in a lot of work and effort to get my job, I set up job alerts with all the tocs and jobsites too. If people need spoonfeeding to apply and can't do some work and research, then lord help them through training.
 

tiptoptaff

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As many others on here, I am fully supportive of the best people getting the job, regardless of race, religion and gender. I myself am White, straight and old. Before I started with my toc, who were majorly supportive, I was unsuccessful at dmi with a different toc and almost certainly due to my age. Before both of these I saw and advert on mums net for trainee drivers with mtr. This idea that we should try and get different recruitment advertising does make me wonder. I put in a lot of work and effort to get my job, I set up job alerts with all the tocs and jobsites too. If people need spoonfeeding to apply and can't do some work and research, then lord help them through training.
There's an entire section of this forum where jobs are posted and advice on how to get through is given. Perhaps anyone on here who's ever asked anything shouldn't bother either then?
 

baz962

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There's an entire section of this forum where jobs are posted and advice on how to get through is given. Perhaps anyone on here who's ever asked anything shouldn't bother either then?

Not at all. Finding this forum as I did, is research and work is it not. I googled and found it and it was easy. Why can't other's.
 

EBlackadder

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Some fascinating opinions on this thread, which appear to fly in the face of almost all available evidence, not to mention common sense.

Before going on, I'm a white male. I'm relentlessly middle-class and have spent the last week giving more thought to what type of liner to get for my (ridiculously large) pond than anything else. I will shortly be starting driver training having applied barely 8 months ago. For what it's worth, I'm also former police officer - another profession with a history of difficulties in attracting non-white, male applicants.

To summarise:

"Only the best people should get the job".

Obviously.

ASLEF's proposals are to ensure that under-represented groups are AWARE OF THE OPPORTUNITIES OFFERED BY THE RAILWAY. As a previous poster has pointed out, most other industries have been doing this since the turn of the century; the police have achieved wonderful things in diversifying their workforce, not by giving the ladies a gentle pat on the bum and an assessment process that starts and finishes with "she's got a nice smile, give her a job" but by demonstrating that it is a viable career choice and worth their while in pursuing.

The evidence demonstrates that groups are under-represented in workplaces primarily because those groups don't apply in the first place. It is nowadays extremely rare for employers to get away with blatant direct discrimination, if only because their legal departments stamp out anything that crosses the line. As long as everybody is required to take the same assessments, I am incredibly relaxed about employers targeting recruitment adverts at women, BME, etc... After all, anyone serious about applying for a role on the railway will be checking recruitment pages religiously, so it shouldn't matter where adverts are targeted, eh?

It strikes me that there are a large number of people who are frankly terrified that some Doris will apply for a role that they think is theirs By Right, and, God forbid, actually get it on merit.


"Women go and get pregnant, are flighty, girly, cry at rude jokes etc... etc..."

A man is usually involved in some capacity in causing a woman to fall pregnant.

I certainly expect my wife's employer to bend over backwards to accommodate her if/when she gets pregnant, and as part of the social contract that our society has laboured under, certainly since the last War,we all should expect to be flexible when female colleagues need time off to have their own children.


As for women not being able to cope with rough and tumble life on the railway...I mean, Jesus Christ. Some of the most stoical, resilient and darkly funny people I have worked with have been women. I'm sure the darlings can cope without some Steely God of the Footplate to protect them from it all - by denying them a job in the first place, just to make sure there's no chance of them hearing something horrid).

I am aware of a number of female drivers at my own TOC not having worked for sometime. I am aware of considerably more males in the same position. I can't see it having anything to do with gender, and everything to do with basic capability and attitude.


"I don't agree with calling people 'women' or 'BME', why can't we all just be people? YOU'RE ACTUALLY THE RACIST/SEXIST."

I mean, this is something said by people who are either completely unaware of their relative privileges, or who are actively trying to maintain them.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need to refer to different groups of people according to their race, religion, gender, etc... Unfortunately, as the world isn't actually perfect, we need to refer to different groups of people in certain circumstances - such as when they are demonstrably under-represented in certain fields or are subject to, for example, hate crime. When David Copeland blew up the Admiral Duncan 20 years ago, he wasn't just targeting a random group of people. He was targeting a specific, minority group.

If only 6% of drivers being female doesn't strike anyone as a bit, I don't know, odd. Then I don't think any sort of reasoning is going to help.


I've seen the list of names of my driver intake. It is, I think, entirely white and male. If there is a conspiracy to get more women and BME people to at least apply, then bring it on. It will do wonders to open up a new pool of talent.
 
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tiptoptaff

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Not at all. Finding this forum as I did, is research and work is it not. I googled and found it and it was easy. Why can't other's.
And whats to say that some people who read the Mumsnet advert didn't Google how to be a train driver as a mum and have that pop up on Google?

We're not talking about positive discrimination here. We're talking about letting under represented groups know that it's a viable career for them and giving them the same chance to apply as everyone else. The driver selection process is a great leveller. If you can't pass the assessments you won't get a job. (I know there's evidence to suggest it's not perfect, but that's for another thread on another day)

And you know what, frankly, if a load of women drivers got pregnant and had to work shifted hours, good for them. Having a child is the greatest thing. Let them.

Happy to work 1800-0200 every day as result. Love it.

Childcare full time is hideously expensive. If I'm bunged out on extremes of shifts while my wife is working in her job, I'll still be far better off financially than my accommodated colleagues, as I won't be forking out a grand a month for nursery/childminders etc etc....
 

CC 72100

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I was interviewed by a female, wait for it, DSM!!!

The world has gone mad! And to think that you could be trained by a female driver trainer too?!*

This campaign is - I hope - about saying "hey groups that are proportionally under-represented, perhaps you're not applying because of misconceptions about what you think the job is like, or what the job was believed to be like 30 years ago, actually this is the job in 2019, ooh look you have some of those skills and those barriers that you thought were there now aren't, why not consider it"

I'm convinced the best people will still get the jobs, its just hopefully it encourages people to apply that previously wouldn't have because of misconceptions. Once they get into the application process then quite frankly it makes no difference whether they're male, female or Saharan desert Camel.

And unless hiring managers are given some sort of targets on who to recruit because it looks good, that won't change - everyone in the process will be equal.

*obviously I'm not being serious here, in case the rest of my post hadn't made that clear.
 
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