Ashford International - Private Security.

[2R84]

At Ashford International station there are now private security contractors, normally at least 2 at any one time.

During the day they have yellow hi vis saying 'SFM Steward' (so presumably not SIA licenced) while in the evenings its 'SFM Security'.

All they seem to do is stand in the subway by the lift to platform 5/6 and do station security checks, anyone have any idea what thier reason for being there is? I initially thought they were covering the lift replacement, although that has been long completed.

 

[al.currie93]

I can't say much for Ashford, but South West Trains also have private Security Helping with train dispatch at Clapham Junction in the morning peaks, so this could be a new thing coming up everywhere. I don't like it personally, at Clapham they have a habit of banging on train windows and shouting at passenger to move down if the train is crowded, even when there is obviously no space at all... It all seems overly Aggressive to me, and feels to me like one step further away from the idea of pleasant train journeys :/

 

[2R84]

I can't say much for Ashford, but South West Trains also have private Security Helping with train dispatch at Clapham Junction in the morning peaks, so this could be a new thing coming up everywhere. I don't like it personally, at Clapham they have a habit of banging on train windows and shouting at passenger to move down if the train is crowded, even when there is obviously no space at all... It all seems overly Aggressive to me, and feels to me like one step further away from the idea of pleasant train journeys :/

Well that is a lovely way to welcome new commuters to the railway isn't it!

When I come back on the second to last train into Ashford, arriving 00:58, they are still there,so presumably its not for dispatch (only see them on platforms doing security checks), although I do not travel in the peaks so cannot be sure.

 

[user15681]

We had some security guards up here in north Kent for a little while, probably around this time last year. Homeless people and vandals were repeatedly breaking/getting into the station and causing a nuisance, they said. So security guards had been asked to patrol from late at night until morning. The problems stopped and the security guards left.

 

[overtonchris]

I can't say much for Ashford, but South West Trains also have private Security Helping with train dispatch at Clapham Junction in the morning peaks, so this could be a new thing coming up everywhere. I don't like it personally, at Clapham they have a habit of banging on train windows and shouting at passenger to move down if the train is crowded, even when there is obviously no space at all... It all seems overly Aggressive to me, and feels to me like one step further away from the idea of pleasant train journeys :/

Oh Lordy, how right you are. I had a "stupid o'clock" meeting in London this morning......was heading home at 9am(ish) on a pretty empty train when this Security 'erbert started banging on the train and shouting at passengers to "hurry up and board". Unprofessional is not the word. AND the swine woke me up!!

 

[BrownE]

SFM have been working with South Eastern since pre-Olympics.

Old news.

 

[Mojo]

SFM have been working with South Eastern since pre-Olympics.

Old news.

It's not old news as I've never seen Southeastern have private security staff at Ashford before! And another person mentioned this to me too last week!

 

[IKBrunel]

they're also used on EMT especially during major engineering works or strike action. I recall it being STM security.
They've been known to 'assist' with train despatch, albeit in a an informal manner to avoid breaching safety rules & union agreements. ie they help people along but don't actually despatch the train.

 

[TheJRB]

I'm glad somebody mentioned this. I noticed them a couple of Sundays back. I initially wondered if it was because of fewer Southeastern staff being present on Sundays, but that's definitely not the case.

I noticed one security staff member and another Southeastern staff member had rounded up a foreign family who had clearly not bought tickets and were attempting to fare evade. Later, I noticed some more staff patrolling the platforms. A bit like you see the staff at Gatwick Airport station (I noticed the same at Milton Keynes Central too) going down all the platforms and back up just checking to see if there's anything suspicious.

I'd be interested to find out the real reason why these extra staff have been deployed. Ashford station is hardly a haven of crime. In fact it always seems well staffed and safe.

 

[fgwrich]

they're also used on EMT especially during major engineering works or strike action. I recall it being STM security.
They've been known to 'assist' with train despatch, albeit in a an informal manner to avoid breaching safety rules & union agreements. ie they help people along but don't actually despatch the train.

SWT have also started using 'STM Security' on several station gatelines very recently - Unfortunately it's really not the brightest idea as some of the security gaurds are not of shall we say the brightest, nor are they versed in much railway knowledge - which makes it rather unhelpful for many passengers who see the guy on the gateline as the first face on what's becoming an further automated railway with the likes of ticket machines et all...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will this be the same "STM Security" who have taken over from G4S in the Manchester area (just to name but one area) from 1st April as part of the new 22 month Northern Rail direct award, as the G4S contract with Northern Rail would have been terminated on that date as the original franchise had come to its end?

 

[Clip]

Will this be the same "STM Security" who have taken over from G4S in the Manchester area (just to name but one area) from 1st April as part of the new 22 month Northern Rail direct award, as the G4S contract with Northern Rail would have been terminated on that date as the original franchise had come to its end?

I think they would be Paul.

 

[2R84]

We had some security guards up here in north Kent for a little while, probably around this time last year. Homeless people and vandals were repeatedly breaking/getting into the station and causing a nuisance, they said. So security guards had been asked to patrol from late at night until morning. The problems stopped and the security guards left.

Maybe... I gather there have been a couple of issues where homeless people have settled down in the station and had to be removed by BTP/REO's when they lock the station up just after 1am. But employing private security all day everyday seems overkill!

The walking up and down stuff is the hourly(?) security checks I mentioned earlier, which were previously done by Southeastern staff.

A couple of weeks ago when I was at Ashford a passenger asked one of them what platform the Victoria service was on (Not straightforward as they alternate between 1 and 6) and after looking at the departure screen they still had to ask a member of rail staff.

 

[EM2]

I'd be interested to find out the real reason why these extra staff have been deployed. Ashford station is hardly a haven of crime. In fact it always seems well staffed and safe.

I would suspect that there's an issue with staff shortage (possibly a number of vacancies or long-term sickness), and STM staff are doing basic security checks leaving the experienced staff that are available to work with customers and in safety-critical roles.

 

[Matt Taylor]

As far as I'm aware STM are not assisting with train dispatch at Clapham, if anything it's the opposite as they (unintentionally) sometimes block my line of sight and create confusion as they wear the same shade of hi-vis as the dispatchers.

My understanding is that the gateline STM chaps get two days training.

 

[bramling]

As far as I'm aware STM are not assisting with train dispatch at Clapham, if anything it's the opposite as they (unintentionally) sometimes block my line of sight and create confusion as they wear the same shade of hi-vis as the dispatchers.

My understanding is that the gateline STM chaps get two days training.

I''m not convinced private security staff (or the Network Rail 'blue hi-vi' staff for that matter) contribute *anything* to the railway.

From my perspective, they seem to get in the way of regular passengers (I get sick of being asked 'can I help you?' when standing on a platform at KX waiting for a train to arrive), meanwhile we read on this forum and elsewhere of hassle to railway enthusiasts, however when there's genuine trouble strangely the 'security' staff are nowhere to be seen. Like at King's Cross last Sunday evening when the place was overrun by troublesome football crowds.

I would prefer to see properly trained railway staff, supported where necessary by the BTP.

 

[EM2]

I''m not convinced private security staff (or the Network Rail 'blue hi-vi' staff for that matter) contribute *anything* to the railway.
...
I would prefer to see properly trained railway staff, supported where necessary by the BTP.

Define 'properly-trained'? NR staff are generally not trained in ticketing matters, for example, as that is a matter for TOCs.
And what would you expect staff to do in the case of 'troublesome football crowds'? NR are not going to ask their staff to put themselves in danger, and they also have a 'hands off' policy when dealing with confrontation.

 

[No Fault Found]

Rumour has it that Friday is the last day you'll see them at Ashford.

They were originally brought in whilst the lifts were being refurbished to assist platform staff with carrying customers' luggage up onto the platforms. Nobody seems to know why they're still there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And what would you expect staff to do in the case of 'troublesome football crowds'? NR are not going to ask their staff to put themselves in danger, and they also have a 'hands off' policy when dealing with confrontation.

Very well said. I often wonder exactly what training in crowd control some forum members seem to think that rail staff (apart from the BTP) seem to feel that is part and parcel of their said remit....

 

[bramling]

Very well said. I often wonder exactly what training in crowd control some forum members seem to think that rail staff (apart from the BTP) seem to feel that is part and parcel of their said remit....

Perhaps if my post had been read properly, the words "supported where necessary by the BTP" would have been noted.

I was thinking more of training in relation to railway operational matters. When a Network Rail customer service assistant tells me it is 'impossible' for more than one train to occupy a platform at King's Cross, it's quite obvious that individual has little idea on how railways operate, and furthermore has quite obviously failed to take in everyday activities which occur on his station!

 

[EM2]

I was thinking more of training in relation to railway operational matters. When a Network Rail customer service assistant tells me it is 'impossible' for more than one train to occupy a platform at King's Cross, it's quite obvious that individual has little idea on how railways operate, and furthermore has quite obviously failed to take in everyday activities which occur on his station!

90% of customers have no interest in operations, and a CSA would rarely be asked about them (I don't recall that I ever have?), so there's very little to be gained. They are trained for the everyday occurences. Which train for Peterborough? How do I get to Covent Garden? What's the nearest station to the London Eye?

 

[bramling]

90% of customers have no interest in operations, and a CSA would rarely be asked about them (I don't recall that I ever have?), so there's very little to be gained. They are trained for the everyday occurences. Which train for Peterborough? How do I get to Covent Garden? What's the nearest station to the London Eye?

So how does the CSA know which train is for Peterborough? By understanding the operation of the railway!

As in the example discussed earler, being told that there is no train departing from a platform, when there quite clearly is a train about to arrive, is not good customer service - not that any customer service, or any form of staff interaction, was being sought on this occasion!

This comes into its own particularly during disruption, when control staff don't have the time to tell the customer-facing staff every little piece of information.

 

[EM2]

So how does the CSA know which train is for Peterborough? By understanding the operation of the railway!

By referring to the platform plan that is issued. By asking the control room. By checking the departure board. From experience.

As in the example discussed earler, being told that there is no train departing from a platform, when there quite clearly is a train about to arrive, is not good customer service - not that any customer service, or any form of staff interaction, was being sought on this occasion!.

A train arriving does not mean a train departing soon afterwards. A set can be berthed, it can leave as empty stock. If no form of staff interaction is being sought, how did it come about?

This comes into its own particularly during disruption, when control staff don't have the time to tell the customer-facing staff every little piece of information.

Really? I'll have to remember that next time there's disrupution, seeing as I am a controller and have previously been a CSA. And if, as you feel, they don't contribute anything to the railway, there's no point me passing them information anyway.

 

[bramling]

By referring to the platform plan that is issued. By asking the control room. By checking the departure board. From experience.

A train arriving does not mean a train departing soon afterwards. A set can be berthed, it can leave as empty stock. If no form of staff interaction is beong sought, how did it come about?

Really? I'll have to remember that next time there's disrupution, seeing as I am a controller and have previously been a CSA. And if, as you feel, they don't contribute anything to the railway, there's no point me passing them information anyway.

OK - in the initial example the train had been advertised as departing from Platform 9A, and a small number of people had therefore congregated on Platform 9A. There was already a stabled train at Platform 9B which was locked up. The Network Rail CSA started approaching the people on Platform 9A asking 'can I help you?', and then started telling people that they shouldn't be waiting on that platform as no train was due. When it was pointed out that the platform had in fact been advertised from a train, he stated that this was impossible as there was already a train in the platform, and therefore this part of the platform was "out of bounds". In the end he was politely told to mind his own business, at which point the train appeared. Not really a good demonstration of anything apart from that he clearly had no understanding of regular activities at that station.

This has gone off the original point now, which was that security staff generally don't seem to be able to provide useful or correct information.

Perhaps this is why disruption is often (not always) handled extremely badly at some locations. I've certainly been at KX many times when the service has been completely up the wall, and the staff on the ground are unable to get through to either the signal box nor the TOC control, meanwhile the security staff simply direct customer queries to already stretched uniformed TOC staff. Not a good advertisement for the railway at all, as it creates the impression the staff haven't a clue what's going on. If a situation develops with a customer, from a staff perspective I'd rather have BTP assistance than from a security firm.

For a good example, look at London Underground, where most station staff are operationally qualified. Apart from the benefits this brings when failures occur for example in implementing operating procedures, it also means customer incidents such as items dropped on to the track, can be safely and quickly resolved.

 

[EM2]

So, you've come across one poorly-trained member of staff, and that means that none of the 'private security staff (or the Network Rail 'blue hi-vi' staff for that matter) contribute *anything* to the railway.'
They are there for security purposes, to check that people, vehicles and objects aren't where they shouldn't be. They are not generally trained to 'provide useful or correct information' because that is not what they are generally required to do.
It's like asking the security guy at Asda why there aren't any teabags on the shelf.
As for the latter, I've never known staff on the ground need to call a signal box during disruption, unless it's dispatchers needing to know which service is likely to depart first. NR security are unlikely to know, because they don't work for the train operator, are therefore not privy to the operators' plans during disruption and still have to complete security duties whilst the disruption is ongoing. That's what TOC staff are for.

 

[bramling]

So, you've come across one poorly-trained member of staff, and that means that none of the 'private security staff (or the Network Rail 'blue hi-vi' staff for that matter) contribute *anything* to the railway.'
They are there for security purposes, to check that people, vehicles and objects aren't where they shouldn't be. They are not generally trained to 'provide useful or correct information' because that is not what they are generally required to do.
It's like asking the security guy at Asda why there aren't any teabags on the shelf.
As for the latter, I've never known staff on the ground need to call a signal box during disruption, unless it's dispatchers needing to know which service is likely to depart first. NR security are unlikely to know, because they don't work for the train operator, are therefore not privy to the operators' plans during disruption and still have to complete security duties whilst the disruption is ongoing. That's what TOC staff are for.

It was one of many examples where security staff have given incorrect information. One doesn't have to read far on this forum before the Northern Rail contract with G4S is mentioned in a negative light.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your point, but that seems to be the point I was making, I'd rather see more TOC staff, and leave the security function to the professionals - the BTP.

If required to manage an incident, I would rather deal with staff who understand what needs to be done, or at least who can perform useful functions. Keeping customers informed is one of those useful functions, but relies on the member of staff having sufficient knowledge and understanding of what is going on to be able to get on with the task without needing to be led by the hand. If I turn up to find no staff are qualified to assist with operational aspects of an incident, and can't provide correct info to customers, then to be honest it's better if they're not there.

I would also add, from the points of view of both an industry insider and a regular user, if given the choice of being stuck on a LU or National Rail train, for example due to a power failure, I'd rather be on LU, as the simple reality is you will almost certainly be off the train quicker. Compare the Kentish Town Thameslink incident with comparable situations on LU- one day on the Northern Line a few years ago there was a major power failure around Camden Town with four trains stuck in tunnels. The last passenger was at street level within 65 minutes, with 4 track detrainments having been completed quickly and safely.

 

[EM2]

You're confusing two aspects of security. The first, which is to make sure that, as I said, people, vehicles and objects are not where they shouldn't be, is never going to be done by BTP. It's not done by police at shopping centres, office blocks or TV studios, and it won't for stations either.
The second, which is to maintain the security of the town/city/nation as a whole is the remit of BTP and they will attend when required, or if requested.
During disruption, security staff carry on doing their security things. The frontline staff are either TOC staff, or NR staff whose primary function is information. If you happen to come across a member of security staff while he is conducting his patrol, or a search of an area, don't be surprised if he doesn't have a clue as to what's going on, because that's not what he's there for.

 

[bramling]

You're confusing two aspects of security. The first, which is to make sure that, as I said, people, vehicles and objects are not where they shouldn't be, is never going to be done by BTP. It's not done by police at shopping centres, office blocks or TV studios, and it won't for stations either.
The second, which is to maintain the security of the town/city/nation as a whole is the remit of BTP and they will attend when required, or if requested.
During disruption, security staff carry on doing their security things. The frontline staff are either TOC staff, or NR staff whose primary function is information. If you happen to come across a member of security staff while he is conducting his patrol, or a search of an area, don't be surprised if he doesn't have a clue as to what's going on, because that's not what he's there for.

If security staff are as vital as you imply, how come LU don't feel the need to employ security staff, but instead use operational staff to carry out checks as part of their duties? Likewise they're only found at a small number of national rail stations.

No, the real reason is cost - it's cheaper to hire them through an agency, as they will almost certainly be on a lower wage, and the railway doesn't have to be involved in the Human Resources aspects of employing and training someone. Incidentally I am referring to the likes of G4S - I presume the blue hivis are directly employed by NR, but I reckon it's a safe bet they earn a far lower wage than a LU CSA. You get what you pay for!

 

[EM2]

If security staff are as vital as you imply, how come LU don't feel the need to employ security staff, but instead use operational staff to carry out checks as part of their duties? Likewise they're only found at a small number of national rail stations.

Maybe because LU seem to like their staff to be jacks of all trades and masters of none, hence their plan to cut ticket office staff? NR prefer to let their operational staff be operational and their security staff to deal with security.
As to why they are only at few national rail stations, it's probably because smaller stations can cope with the workload easily enough.

No, the real reason is cost - it's cheaper to hire them through an agency, as they will almost certainly be on a lower wage, and the railway doesn't have to be involved in the Human Resources aspects of employing and training someone. Incidentally I am referring to the likes of G4S - I presume the blue hivis are directly employed by NR, but I reckon it's a safe bet they earn a far lower wage than a LU CSA. You get what you pay for!

In my experience, agency staff are used when there is a staff shortage, possibly due to long-term sickness or a number of vacancies coming up at one time.
I can't speak for LU, but an NR security CSA will start at about £19.5k plus London Weighting, if applicable.

 

[2R84]

I would suspect that there's an issue with staff shortage (possibly a number of vacancies or long-term sickness), and STM staff are doing basic security checks leaving the experienced staff that are available to work with customers and in safety-critical roles.

It seems to be SFM on Southeastern and STM on the northern contract and many others? Not that which security company has which contract is of much interest to me.

I don't think its a staff shortage as for the past few weeks the gateline at Ashford has actually been consistently manned everytime I have been there!

There also an apprentice at Ashford now too, who would presumably be the first person to be lumped with the routine security checks.


I did think it was to cover passenger assistance during lift replacement, but that was completed several weeks ago.