Ashford-Hastings Investment

[GatwickDepress]

Ramsgate does have a depot and the facilities though does Hastings?

Hastings itself only has two stabling sidings at Alexandra Park, which is insufficient, hence Southeastern stabling a 375 overnight at platform 1. The former carriage shed at Ore is now a housing estate and the goods yard at Hastings is now Sussex Coast College so nothing can be expanded there.

Although, moving westwards, there's St Leonards Railway Engineering Limited at West Marina depot. They currently have a contract to refuel and maintain Southern's 171s and some GBRf/DBS locomotives, among other companies. The 5-lane inspection shed opposite the main shed is used by Southeastern 375s, and I think can take 12 car formations, so it could occupy two Javelins end-to-end.

So I suppose, to my amateur mind, that's it could be feasible to contract SLREL for routine maintenance and internal/external cleaning of the Javelin trains, with anything necessitating major work being sent to a suitable depot?

 

[D6975]

Apart from any other considerations, note that this would probably lead to a three tier price structure to London from Hastings, HS1, Tonbridge and Lewes in decreasing order of ching.
Just to make things simpler..

 

[Kentish Paul]

Wow ! I've been reading this thread forn a while.

It is all pie in the sky and fantasy railways.

Lets look at the facts. The politicians talk of extendig HS1 across the Marsh to improve journey times. OK 395's zooming along at 140mph between Ashford and Hastings. 3rd rail or 25,000v ohle, double or single track, conventional or TVM430 signalling, all level crossings closed etc,etc.

Some people are talking of going to Bexhill or even further!

The fact remains you cannot access the Hastings line from HS1 at Ashford as it stands. Looking at it today (as i did) you could get to platform 2 from HS1 via a set of new (very slow) crossovers and a bit of new track. There seems to be enough room. As an alternative you can put in a chord from HS1 to the Maidstone line at Hothfield (across the Beechbrook Farm site) and continue to all platforms at Ashford using the 3rd rail.

Lets not forget, having travelled on the Marshlink several times, it is quite a good alignment so if signalling, level crossings etc are catered for then a very reasonable speed can be achieved.

If it all comes to fruition then fine, but it seems strange for someone in Bexhill to travel several miles in the opposite direction to get a quicker journey time to London.

Maybe put the Eastbourne avoiding line back.

 

[cle]

It is quite something looking at it on a map from Eastbourne or Bexhill - a full semi-circle but still possibly faster than the relatively-straight line to Victoria.

Shows what HSR can do, even for less obvious points on the compass...

 

[GatwickDepress]

Here is an image showing the three major routes into London, as mapped by RailMiles via Google Maps, along with mileage and rough journey times. The connections stuff at Ashford is based on NRE results, and is what the average punter will use.

The lack of connection to the Marshlink and HS1 is the biggest issue. I think Kentish Paul's idea sounds pretty good, since even if it takes 10 minutes to crossover from the Marshlink to HS1 it'll still be faster than the alternate routes.

A similar speed of that between Margate and Ashford International on the Marshlink rather than 140 mph would be much more feasible! How much it would cost to replace a foot crossing with a footbridge (is it a foot crossing where the 20 mph TSR near Winchelsea is?), safetyise level crossings, and do what's needed to remove all the existing TSRs, I wonder.

Reinstating the Eastbourne avoiding line wouldn't solve anything. Possibly it would save 15-20 minutes at most, and that's still slower than via Tonbridge. It would inconvenience passengers heading along the East Coastway to Eastbourne. Southern are also quite happy with joining/splitting trains and crew changing at Eastbourne. Interesting idea though, I think the biggest hurdle to that would be planning the trains in on the Brighton main line.

It is all pie in the sky but you always need a few pies in the sky to shoot at...or some sort of optimistic phrase like that!
Even if the investment just means faster journey times on existing routes and stock, I would hope that it would lead to better interchanges with HS1.
I'd also like Doleham to be renamed Doleham International and have a fully functioning hot drink vending machine.

 

[SussexMan]

How much it would cost to replace a foot crossing with a footbridge (is it a foot crossing where the 20 mph TSR near Winchelsea is?)

No, it's a road crossing ([URL="https://www.google.com/maps/@50.934257,0.702827,3a,75y,194.52h,71t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s4Pz4F3Ecx_ztxNnlT_pbeA!2e0?hl=en"]Open Crossing with Lights). A 2.7 mile detour if you wanted to close the road but realistically is a small amount to change the crossing compared with the total cost of the project.

 

[yorksrob]

Lets look at the facts. The politicians talk of extendig HS1 across the Marsh to improve journey times. OK 395's zooming along at 140mph between Ashford and Hastings. 3rd rail or 25,000v ohle, double or single track, conventional or TVM430 signalling, all level crossings closed etc,etc.

Some people are talking of going to Bexhill or even further!

The fact remains you cannot access the Hastings line from HS1 at Ashford as it stands. Looking at it today (as i did) you could get to platform 2 from HS1 via a set of new (very slow) crossovers and a bit of new track. There seems to be enough room. As an alternative you can put in a chord from HS1 to the Maidstone line at Hothfield (across the Beechbrook Farm site) and continue to all platforms at Ashford using the 3rd rail.

I strongly suspected that that was the case regarding access from HS1 to the Marshlink.

It does seem strange to have people making a long detour from the Hastings area to HS1, but then again, I wouldn't have predicted that HS1 via Ashford would become the main route from the Canterbury/Thanet area to London.

I can't imagine the Marshlink becoming a 140mph HS line itself, but I could see it being brought into line with the other routes emanating from Ashford and feeding trains into it.

 

[JamesRowden]

I strongly suspected that that was the case regarding access from HS1 to the Marshlink.

It does seem strange to have people making a long detour from the Hastings area to HS1, but then again, I wouldn't have predicted that HS1 via Ashford would become the main route from the Canterbury/Thanet area to London.

I can't imagine the Marshlink becoming a 140mph HS line itself, but I could see it being brought into line with the other routes emanating from Ashford and feeding trains into it.

We need to look at the situation from if the upgrades to the Marshlink that were going to happen occur and HS1 services do not run to Hastings.

The '2013 Kent Route Specification' document showed that the Marshlink is to be upgraded to 75mph throughout, cutting the 'semi-fast' journey time to 35 minutes which included stops at Rye, Appledore and Ham Street. It also showed a 2tph peak service between Hastings and Ashford and the possibility of a 2tph off-peak service.

The 30 minutes Hastings-Ashford journey time shown in the proposals for a Hastings HS1 service would seem to me to be the effect of electrfying the line and running a service that only stops at Rye. As a result I am going to assume that a class 171 would take 31 minutes running the same stopping pattern.

If a 5 minute connection was provided at Ashford between fast class 171 Marshlink services and HS1 services, the total journey time would be:

• 37min St Pancras - Ashford
• 5min Connection
• 31min Ashford - Hastings
• Total: 73mins

Compared to the off-peak 83mins and 96mins to London Bridge via Tunbridge Wells, this shows that HS1 would be the fastest route between London and Hastings even though there would be no through services. This would be even more the case at Bexhill.

This means that during the peak, commuters from Hastings could be attacted to the HS1 route where line capacity will not be an issue unlike the routes via Tunbridge Wells and Lewes.

Providing through HS1 services to Hastings would therefore reduce the pedestrian congestion at Ashford station. The services would also benefit those travelling from the stations on the route via Tunbridge Wells by reducing overcrowding on that route and allowing a more frequent service to the smaller stations on the route such as Robertsbridge and West St Leonards.

 

[cle]

Ramsgate to Ashford is being upgraded in terms of line speed, as is along the Medway line - so clearly now that trains are using HS1, there is a renewed vigour for improving the lines which it trundles onto. Hence I could see the Hastings line getting the same treatment.

As for the line via Battle, it would probably revert even more to becoming a country branch line! Possibly frequency could be reduced, or shuttles run...and more trains could start from Tunbridge Wells. It doesn't really benefit anywhere else though as those paths are still needed from London to Tunbridge Wells... so could just leave as is.

 

[Olaf]

It would be interesting to see if a case could be made to start the service from Eastbourne - given that the catchment population would rise to approx 200,000, better link to London and Continent, justification for additional rolling stock, rationalised operations etc.

 

[MarkyT]

It would be interesting to see if a case could be made to start the service from Eastbourne - given that the catchment population would rise to approx 200,000, better link to London and Continent, justification for additional rolling stock, rationalised operations etc.

If they were considering going to Bexhill, Eastbourne is only a further 20km (12 miles). Without expensive new infrastructure at Bexhill, it would be a lot easier operationally to terminate at Eastbourne.

 

[JamesRowden]

After nine months to consider this proposal I have a hypothesis of what the actual proposal might be instead of these reports which are not from Network Rail.

The 2014 Kent Route Specification document shows that it expects an up to 2tph Bexhill-St Pancras service in 2024 but with no electrification between Ore and Ashford. This service could therefore be operated using cascaded 125mph DMUs (or class 800s which maybe people have been refering to as Javelins with regards to this proposal). The DMUs could miss the Ebbsfleet stop to make up for their relatively slow acceleration and lower top speed when compared to the 395s(, class 800s obviously wouldn't have this complication). Therefore, the only non-committed infracture which would certainly be required for HS1 services to Hastings and Bexhill would be a connection between the parrallel running HS1 and Maidstone East lines north west of Ashford (or a connection at Ashford station).

 

[flash]

After nine months to consider this proposal I have a hypothesis of what the actual proposal might be instead of these reports which are not from Network Rail.

The 2014 Kent Route Specification document shows that it expects an up to 2tph Bexhill-St Pancras service in 2024 but with no electrification between Ore and Ashford. This service could therefore be operated using cascaded 125mph DMUs (or class 800s which maybe people have been refering to as Javelins with regards to this proposal). The DMUs could miss the Ebbsfleet stop to make up for their relatively slow acceleration and lower top speed when compared to the 395s(, class 800s obviously wouldn't have this complication). Therefore, the only non-committed infracture which would certainly be required for HS1 services to Hastings and Bexhill would be a connection between the parrallel running HS1 and Maidstone East lines north west of Ashford (or a connection at Ashford station).

The London tunnels might prove to be a problem for DMUs, the fact that the linespeed is 300kmh (186mph)for much of the route might cause some interesting regulation issues .

 

[Chris125]

The London tunnels might prove to be a problem for DMUs, the fact that the linespeed is 300kmh (186mph)for much of the route might cause some interesting regulation issues .

I can't see DMUs being an option on HS1 but bi-mode units could be a possibility they look into, the Kent Route Specification does say that "Future electrification dependant on business case on rolling stock strategy".

That said I don't think it's wise to read too much into this document at this stage.

Chris

 

[Bald Rick]

That said I don't think it's wise to read too much into this document at this stage.

Chris

Certainly. There's an election coming up.

 

[user15681]

A 395 should be paying a visit to Hastings and Eastbourne on Friday morning, in relation to the rail summit. From memory, it'll be 5Z01 Ashford to Hastings via Tonbridge, 1Z91 Hastings to Eastbourne, 1Z92 Eastbourne to Hastings and 5Z02 Hastings to Ashford via Tonbridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

A 395 should be paying a visit to Hastings and Eastbourne on Friday morning, in relation to the rail summit. From memory, it'll be 5Z01 Ashford to Hastings via Tonbridge, 1Z91 Hastings to Eastbourne, 1Z92 Eastbourne to Hastings and 5Z02 Hastings to Ashford via Tonbridge.

Refer to post 45!

 

[GatwickDepress]

Looks like I'll be out and about on Friday then!

 

[TheJRB]

A 395 should be paying a visit to Hastings and Eastbourne on Friday morning, in relation to the rail summit. From memory, it'll be 5Z01 Ashford to Hastings via Tonbridge, 1Z91 Hastings to Eastbourne, 1Z92 Eastbourne to Hastings and 5Z02 Hastings to Ashford via Tonbridge.

Looks like I'll be out and about on Friday then!

Hmm... indeed! So will 1Z91 and 1Z92 be carrying summit attendees? Wonder if I could sneak on...

No shortage of places to get photos of a Javelin off normal territory either!

 

[user15681]

Hmm... indeed! So will 1Z91 and 1Z92 be carrying summit attendees? Wonder if I could sneak on...

No shortage of places to get photos of a Javelin off normal territory either!

Yes, the two 1ZXX's will have dignitaries from the rail summit. Likely 395014 on it, too.

Standard disclaimer, subject to last minute alterations etc.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Is this still planned to run today?

 

[ushawk]

Is this still planned to run today?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/J56425/2015/01/30/advanced

Currently on the move to Hastings running a bit early. Never knew the 395 was cleared on the Coastway line !!

 

[GatwickDepress]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/J56425/2015/01/30/advanced

Currently on the move to Hastings running a bit early. Never knew the 395 was cleared on the Coastway line !!

Thanks for that, I forgot about RTT...

Cleared specially for this, I believe! I went down and took a few snaps.

The Javelin Comes to Hastings! by Sussex Eclectic, on Flickr

 

[TheJRB]

Cleared specially for this, I believe! I went down and took a few snaps.

As did I and what seemed to be plenty of others too to my surprise. We were exceptionally lucky with the weather it has to be said!

I stopped off at Hastings:


395014 Arrives at Hastings by TheJRB, on Flickr

I then caught the 11:55 ahead of it to Pevensey & Westham:


395014 Passes Pevensey & Westham by TheJRB, on Flickr

Before catching it at a last additional location, Cooden Beach:


395014 Passes Cooden Beach by TheJRB, on Flickr

Even though they're pretty much my local units, I can't help a good Javelin hunt when they're out on a trip like this!

Now as to whether we will see this recreated in passenger service any time soon, especially considering it's election year, let's just say I won't be holding my breath.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I'm up on the bridge there! You can just see my green bobble hat between the parapets.

Cooden Beach is my favourite of yours there. Third rail and its many accoutrements always brings out definition, I think.

 

[backontrack]

This is absolutely brilliant news for the line, and a chance of electrification! This would only leave the Uckfield Line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Off topic, my 200th post!

If the quiz forum counted, it would have been a long time ago... :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone know about which other stations it would serve, if it goes ahead ? I'm guessing Ore, Rye, and maybe Ham Street. Don't expect high speed to call at Doleham :P

Of course, this might not happen. It could be a case of 'election approaching Platform 2'.

 

[theboywho]

This is good news for the line, however it will push property prices in Hastings and Bexhill, altering my chances of moving back to the area in a few years time.

I wonder if this will wake up the Wealden Line campaigner and bring their soapbox to the forefront?

 

[JamesRowden]

Does anyone know about which other stations it would serve, if it goes ahead ? I'm guessing Ore, Rye, and maybe Ham Street. Don't expect high speed to call at Doleham :P

I think that of those stations the High Speed service would only call at Rye unless there was a High Speed service of 2tph. Those other stations should be served by the Brighton-Ashford service.

My evidence for this is that:

• The 68 minutes Hastings-StPancras time implies a 30 minutes Hastings-Ashford time.
• After the line is upgraded to 70-80mph a diesel service is expected to take 35 minutes between Hastings and Ashford when stopping at Rye, Appledore and Ham Street. (This speed upgrade is independent of the HS1 to Hastings proposal)

 

[yorksrob]

I think that of those stations the High Speed service would only call at Rye unless there was a High Speed service of 2tph. Those other stations should be served by the Brighton-Ashford service.

My evidence for this is that:

• The 68 minutes Hastings-StPancras time implies a 30 minutes Hastings-Ashford time.
• After the line is upgraded to 70-80mph a diesel service is expected to take 35 minutes between Hastings and Ashford when stopping at Rye, Appledore and Ham Street. (This speed upgrade is independent of the HS1 to Hastings proposal)

All a far cry from the hourly thumper of my youth !

It's about time this route got some investment.