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Arundel Chord

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Magdalia

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Magdalia. You seem to have a lot of local knowledge. Lets meet up in Arundel and discuss it further

Oh! Hang on! My offer stands, but it seems that if you are located in "The Fens", (150 miles away) - that might not be an easy task
It isn't necessary to live somewhere to have local knowledge. I have been visiting the area for more than 30 years, though my health means that doesn't happen very often now. I always enjoy the scenery in the Pulborough-Ford section of the journey and it is one of my favourite bits of railway, you are lucky to live there. I have a particularly fond memory of Arundel Junction because, about 20 years ago, I first saw a Little Egret there.

Some fancy grade separation of Arundel junction to eliminate a number of flat crossing movements probably has a better business case than the aforementioned chord,
Grade separation in the middle of a flood plain with a tidal river flowing through it - really?
 
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R

RailUK Forums

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I think the issue is that timetabling a pass in a platform loop requires holding the overtaken train for several minutes, which may not be acceptable. Especially when Hove, Worthing, and Barnham are all worth stopping every train at.
The kind of train that would be help up however would be a stopping service, which mainly supplements faster services, so they can get away with holding them up. In fact, while Hove, Worthing and Barnham can all be used as a location to allow trains to overtake, one of the biggest stations actually used to overtake is at Littlehampton itself, as the Brighton to Chichester trains going via Littlehampton then allows a service going to or from Southampton to overtake it whilst doing the reversal at Littlehampton. That in turn consequently leads to the Brighton to Chichester train not being worth getting end-to-end, given waiting for a Brighton to Southampton train will save about 15 minutes of journey time from many stations.
It isn't necessary to live somewhere to have local knowledge. I have been visiting the area for more than 30 years, though my health means that doesn't happen very often now. I have a particularly fond memory of Arundel Junction because, about 30 years ago, I first saw a Little Egret there.


Grade separation in the middle of a flood plain with a tidal river flowing through it - really?
Precisely, you would have to get some very complex junctions worked out, such as a flyover or a separate alignment to allow merging Arun Valley services to avoid conflicting with splitting Littlehampton services, which in turn would have the effect of preventing Arun Valley services serving Littlehampton at all if the old alignment was subsequently lifted.

In general, its only really worth doing any work on Arundel Junction if and only if there is an increase in services on all lines leading up to it, and that is just not going to happen anytime soon, because in part, some increased passenger numbers could be realistically accomodated by running 5-car or 6-car trains out of Brighton, and ensuring that absolutely all London-bound services are 12 car trains (at least by the point they reach London, so maybe Arun Valley ones would need always include an 8-car portion). When the number of trains on Arundel junction is just about sufficient to avoid creating a bottleneck, they will want to keep it that way as long as possible.
 
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IF an Arundel Chord were to be built, the only effect on Barnham would be to possibly REDUCE services there. There is no need to carry train loads of fresh air to Bognor.
WHY is Barnham even being mentioned? Just to muddle the picture?
Far more Arundel travellers want to travel to Chichester, not Bognor. Particularly young students. So the "experts" have taken direct services away from us too.

People are really 'overthinking' on this

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It isn't necessary to live somewhere to have local knowledge.
I can assure you, it helps.

Grade separation never has been nor ever will be on anyone's agenda.
AGAIN, muddle and obfuscation purely to muddy the waters.
 
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Far more Arundel travellers want to travel to Chichester, not Bognor. Particularly young students. So the "experts" have taken direct services away from us too.
That is almost certainly correct. However, the unfortunate reality is that probably back in 2007, stakeholders in Chichester would have been calling for faster services to London. And the only way to do that was to move the dividing/joining of trains from Barnham to Horsham, and thus allowing the portion from Chichester to run non-stop from Barnham to Horsham, and cutting out 10 minutes of journey time. Unfortuanately, Chichester matters significantly more than any of the Arun Valley stations, so therefore that idea was considered a good idea and therefore introduced in 2007, which is what left Arundel, and the other 4 stations south of Horsham (before the Arun Valley joins the West Coastway) with their present half-hourly service to Bognor Regis and nowhere else.

To get frequent direct trains from Arundel (and the other Arun Valley stations for that matter) to Chichester restored would either be either one of the two following scenarios:
A) To remove at least one fast service and change the division point to Barnham, which would anger officials in Chichester with the loss of a fast service to London and a return to the status quo-ante with journey times of 1hr 45min, a journey time which has been criticised all over West Sussex for being too slow, as that is also the journey time from both Bognor Regis and Littlehampton. On top of that, that would lead to criticism from officials beyond Chichester, all of the way into Portsmouth, given all of those places would see a 10 minute hike in journey times.

B) The alternative would be to divert one of the London trains that presently terminates at Bognor Regis to terminate at Chichester instead. However, there is nowhere to terminate in Chichester without potentially creating a bottleneck because Chichester doesn't have a loop platform, meaning the reversing siding would need to be used, which crosses the eastbound line, blocking that.
And like with the other scenario, officials in Bognor would complain about the loss of a service to London, which would make Bognor even less attractive to people than at present, given unlike other stations on the Coastway, it has no direct trains to destinations such as Southampton, Portsmouth, Chichester (although those are thanks to the lack of a Barnham chord, which could be discussed in another forum someday, despite the outcome also being likely a no no), Worthing or Brighton, and now even the neighbouring town of Littlehampton. This in turn has contributed to it being half as busy at Chichester station, even though Bognor is a bigger settlement than Chichester is.

The reality is, unless they started running a regional service down the Arun Valley line, say Horsham to Chichester (all stations, with an option of a reversal of Littlehampton), which would come with its own complexities of fitting around existing trains, and running into the problems with terminating at Chichester, they just can't reinstate direct trains without angering officials in at least one major town on the South Coast. Given that most of the stations on the Arun Valley are not that busy, with Billingshurst in fact being the busiest at around 500,000 passengers a year (most of whom will be travelling instead to London, given you're in the commuter belt by that point), they are just not worth messing up other services to more important places just to get better southbound services.

Either way, that is off-topic to the forum title, but with the last point, by the same criteria, introducing a Horsham to Brighton via Arundel chord service would just run into problems of possibly messing up many services to other places, and the only "major" place that would be regarded as fully benefitting in the eyes of Southern would be Horsham itself, and even then, from Horsham to Brighton, it would likely still be quicker just to go via Three Bridges and doubling back down the main line than taking this new direct service which requires new infrastructure to be created. For the forseeable future, changing at Ford/Barnham will just be the main route that people get.

In an area where most people have cars and can drive to places like Worthing, or get the bus, there would simply be insufficient demand as far as the government are concerned unfortuanately. Alternative schemes, such as maybe reinstating the Uckfield to Lewes line would cost more, but they would provide more benefits to people, as they make rail journeys possible in cases where they are most certainly at present not, given you would have to double-back at East Croydon a ridiculous number of stops up the line at present, as opposed to Arundel chord which saves people the need to double back at Ford one stop up.
 

JonathanH

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To get frequent direct trains from Arundel (and the other Arun Valley stations for that matter) to Chichester restored would either be either one of the two following scenarios:
C) alternate stops in the Portsmouth services at Arundel and Billingshurst (one on each side of the hour, but unfortunately would mess up the paths).
 
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C) alternate stops in the Portsmouth services at Arundel and Billingshurst (one on each side of the hour, but unfortunately would mess up the paths).
If you were to do that, I would recommend include Pulborough in Portsmouth calls as well, as that is busier than Arundel station (although less busy than Billingshurst). Unfortunately, it is quite true, it would mess up the paths. Although one way I suppose they could just about do it could be with the current semi-fast Portsmouth service (As one of them after Barnham calls at all stations except Bedhampton to Portsmouth Harbour, while the other runs semi fast, skipping small stations between Chichester and Havant), have that call at at least one of the intermediate stations, and the end-to-end journey times by the time the trains reach Portsmouth on both trains would be pretty even. That could in some ways be reasonably acceptable, given 4 of the 6 stations between Havant and Chichester are village stations anyway, and Emsworth and Southbourne are not really that big/major settlements, with Chichester retaining a fast service to London. Then from Havant and all stations westward, it isn't the principal London service (as the Waterloo via Guildford service is), so it doesn't really need to be ultra-fast by any means.

Either way, that would probably mess up the paths. Maybe Arundel wouldn't be so bad given the fast train would be quite a way ahead of the slow one by that point, but Billingshurst or Pulborough would just cause the slow train to get held around Christ's Hospital with insufficient distance between two moving trains.

In many ways, all of those stations are pretty unlucky with local connectivity, and it just all comes down to politics unfortunately and historical factors. On top of that, one reason why the Arundel chord is often wanted is to give Brighton direct trains to Horsham, and that existed with the Steyning line until 1966, until Dr Beeching decided to get rid of it thanks to low passenger numbers at the intermediate stations, even if I could imagine thesedays a fair number of people would use it end-to-end, and Steyning wouldn't be a forgotten about town in the middle of no where with a few buses and nothing else.
 
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Dhansak

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The loss of the direct Chichester service from the Arun Valley stations was keenly felt; and the significant degradation in service genuinely angered commuters to London (compounded but the mechanical signalling at the time meaning blocks were so big the fast portion would be at Billingshurst before the stopper could leave Horsham).

For the reasons stated above they are unlikely ever to reappear, but the reintroduced BOG - LBG and return has improved matters as it does not join/split at Horsham (even if the morning service is no good for many city commuters).

Personally I cannot see the case for a new chord as a reversal at Littlehampton would suffice. The reversal would still take time, and how much would be saved over changing at either Littlehampton or Barnham (as travellers would now)?

Aside from students for the uni/tech college, I would be curious about the numbers of people from the Arun Valley (stations from Pulborough northwards in particular) travelling to Chi verses Horsham and Crawley. Definitely there is a Chi/Horsham split in the county where residents gravitate to one or the other: the line is somewhere out in the boondocks between Billingshurst (Horsham) and Petworth (Chichester).

If the powers that be could do one thing to improve the service for the Arun Valley it would be to provide a later last train (22:35 from VIC is too early).
 

Peregrine 4903

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I said better, but I didn't say brilliant/worth pursuing.
The only thing I could say there ever being a case for in the next 10 years or so is building two extra bits of track at Arundel Junction that would allow trains to travel from Angmering to Littlehampton at the same time as a trains travels from Arundel to Ford and vice versa in the other direction. Would be way cheaper than grade seperation, and give you a bit more capacity at Arundel Junction.

The West Coastway is a booming market though with massive passenger growth forecast. In the short/medium term, that can be catered for by running longer trains when/if GTR get more stock but in the really long term you will need more trains on the West Coastway.
 
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The West Coastway is a booming market though with massive passenger growth forecast. In the short/medium term, that can be catered for by running longer trains when/if GTR get more stock but in the really long term you will need more trains on the West Coastway.
I agree, because I have been on many trains, particularly into Brighton, and many of those trains seem quite full up, and with the "Brighton effect" ongoing, it is vital. For example, that is why I now live in Bognor Regis rather than Littlehampton (where I lived, before moving away for 4 years to the Midlands, but returning as we missed the area too much), with its new outrageous house prices, as its a new chain of the effect where people have to move increasingly further west (or East I suppose at the same time, although that is a topic for an East Coastway line forum) due to Brighton being too expensive, but for many having the best economic opportunities, therefore making commuting by train (even in a post COVID situation) the answer, as roads into Brighton are a bit of a nightmare.

However, the better answer to increasing capacity though would be to run 5-car or 6-car trains. At present, Arundel junction is firmly out of the national news. However, as it stands now, if you ever introduced more trains onto it, you would just end up with a Castlefield corridor situation with too many trains crossing over the same tracks, creating an obvious bottleneck. Probably the way to do that if this was to happen anytime soon would be to order extra carriages, and extending some of the Class 377s or Class 387s from 4 to 5 carriages, and most stations can accomodate those train lengths, or have space to extend the platform so that is little issue.

Probably the best case though with infrastructure (if required in the case that everything else fails) would be if they could acquire more land, and quadrouple the section between Angmering and Littlehampton in a way so it doesn't interfere with trains coming off the Arun Valley, so same basic principle. Obviously, maintaining the existing link, even with just a parliamentary service would be vital to ensure that Arun Valley line trains can serve Littlehampton on either peak-hour trains or on special occasions like engineering work or disruption, given its an easy terminal branch to divert trains to on numerous occasions.
 
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