Arundel Chord

[najaB]

BUT if the Arundel chord was built (400 metres)
you would have an alternative route to Brighton at a FRACTION of the cost and disruption

Do any of these things pay the bills for such a chord? It would only be used during in very niche cases like this where a circuitous route into London is the only option.

Is that actually the only feasible use? Would no additional journey options become available?

Genuine question since I don't know anything about the area and routes.

 

[Magdalia]

An Arundel Curve would be very expensive because it would need a new bridge over the Black Ditch which flows into the River Arun and is crossed by the existing line from Arundel very close to Arundel Junction.

 

[PGAT]

Is that actually the only feasible use? Would no additional journey options become available?

Genuine question since I don't know anything about the area and routes.

As I understand it, yes. Perhaps there is some demand between Horsham and Brighton but it would have to compete with existing journey times which take less than an hour with a change at Three Bridges, and I doubt that is possible along the West Coastway where it has to follow stopping services that run 6tph.

I also don't actually think it will be needed during diversions either as Littlehampton is an important destination that also needs decent provision whenever the Brighton Mainline is closed, so a reversal there will still be necessary.

 

[JonathanH]

Would no additional journey options become available?

It would be hard to justify extra services on the Arun Valley to send round an Arundel Chord.

Arun and some Mole Valley Councillors want a study of a possible Dorking - Horsham - Arundel -Worthing service

They could save their money and just conclude that the existing service is what is going to prevail. The service could run already via Littlehampton without the need to build a curve at Arundel, and passengers can already make journeys changing at Ford or Barnham.

I don't see that an Arundel Chord is the number one priority on the Coastway. Doing any infrastructure improvement on the Coastway is well down the list of priorities for the national railway. Something like loops to allow faster Brighton to Portsmouth / Southampton services and better local services into Brighton would appear to be more important.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s been looked at. A very, very poor case.

 

[najaB]

Thanks all.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

Is that actually the only feasible use? Would no additional journey options become available?

Genuine question since I don't know anything about the area and routes.

No
Many residents in the Arun Valley want a service to Worthing, , Shoreham and Hove
But Mole Valley - some Councillors there want a Dorking - Horsham - Arundel - Worthing (etc) service

What they DON'T want is what they have now. Trains running to Bognor during the day, bad connections at Barnham and/or Ford, and massive delays due to reversals at Littlehampton on days like today when the BML is disrupted.

 

[JonathanH]

Many residents in the Arun Valley want a service to Worthing, , Shoreham and Hove
But Mole Valley - some Councillors there want a Dorking - Horsham - Arundel - Worthing (etc) service

Do you believe that six trains an hour on the Arun Valley is realistic?

Would Bognor losing its direct services to London be tenable if the stopping service on the Arun Valley turned east rather than west after Arundel?

How would the service then fit east of Angmering?

What they DON'T want is what they have now.

How substantial are the representations about this?

 

[30907]

The market could be tested at the next timetable rewrite by diverting one of the Horsham-Bognors to Littlehampton and then take over the Chichester-Brighton path (yes, I know it doesn't work neatly ATM, and it may not be possible given all the permutations).
JonathanH has just posted with a similar thought - great minds etc

PS if Bognor objected to losing 1tph to London the answer might be that attributed to HM KGV

 

[CastlebarKeith]

The market could be tested at the next timetable rewrite by diverting one of the Horsham-Bognors to Littlehampton and then take over the Chichester-Brighton path (yes, I know it doesn't work neatly ATM, and it may not be possible given all the permutations).
JonathanH has just posted with a similar thought - great minds etc

......and one of the existing Hove - Littlehamptons could be diverted to Bognor to compensate

 

[weeklycommuter]

GTR changed the Monday to Saturday West Coastway timetable in June 2024 after extensive analysis and consultations. The developed timetable was determined to be the best operationally and to provide the greatest overall benefit for the greatest number of passengers on the entire West Coastway route which includes Portsmouth and Southampton. AIUI it has been a success. They are not going to change it again for the foreseeable future.

 

[PGAT]

We have the data, we know the demand, it doesn't look particularly convincing.

Annual Journeys (2023/24)
Horsham - Brighton: 41,031
Horsham - Hove: 3,225
Horsham - Shoreham-by-Sea: 1,006
Horsham - Worthing: 2,597

Arundel - Brighton: 5,261
Arundel - Hove: 1,206
Arundel - Worthing: 2,613

As I mentioned previously, Horsham to Brighton is the only passenger flow that has any sort of demand but such a service would be unviable.

How on earth are the rest of these figures anywhere near high enough to be confidently ripping out actually well used connections from Littlehampton and Bognor Regis?

 

[CastlebarKeith]

We have the data, we know the demand, it doesn't look particularly convincing.

Annual Journeys (2023/24)
Horsham - Brighton: 41,031
Horsham - Hove: 3,225
Horsham - Shoreham-by-Sea: 1,006
Horsham - Worthing: 2,597

Arundel - Brighton: 5,261
Arundel - Hove: 1,206
Arundel - Worthing: 2,613

As I mentioned previously, Horsham to Brighton is the only passenger flow that has any sort of demand but such a service would be unviable.

How on earth are the rest of these figures anywhere near high enough to be confidently ripping out actually well used connections from Littlehampton and Bognor Regis?

lt's BECAUSE 1: connections are so bad
People have left jobs after waiting on station platforms for 55 minutes to get a connection
2: Traffic on the A27 takes that away as an alternative for many
3: lt isn't "just Arundel". People in Billingshurst, Pulborough want this link, but are not being listened to

 

[Snow1964]

I am sure it was proposed and actually part of a franchise application about 25 years ago, as a way of getting extra trains to South Coast as line via Haywards Heath was close to capacity.

Forgotten which company proposed it (as it never happened)

 

[CastlebarKeith]

I am sure it was proposed and actually part of a franchise application about 25 years ago, as a way of getting extra trains to South Coast as line via Haywards Heath was close to capacity.

Forgotten which company proposed it (as it never happened)

I am told it was Southern, as a "promise" if they got the franchise from Connex
The broke the promise, but some people still do remember it.

 

[infobleep]

lt's BECAUSE 1: connections are so bad
People have left jobs after waiting on station platforms for 55 minutes to get a connection
2: Traffic on the A27 takes that away as an alternative for many
3: lt isn't "just Arundel". People in Billingshurst, Pulborough want this link, but are not being listened to

If there are 6tph, I think i have that correct, how come they are waiting 55 minutes? Or are you talking about Brighton to Arundel and the wait to get onto the Arun line?

 

[Magdalia]

lt's BECAUSE 1: connections are so bad
People have left jobs after waiting on station platforms for 55 minutes to get a connection
2: Traffic on the A27 takes that away as an alternative for many
3: lt isn't "just Arundel". People in Billingshurst, Pulborough want this link, but are not being listened to

No the numbers of journeys are small because the populations are tiny.

I have an ONS spreadsheet, based on 2021 census data, that lists all built up areas with more than 5000 population. Billingshurst has 9120 population, neither Arundel or Pulborough are big enough to get on the list.

I have travelled through the Arun Valley many times. The population is mostly agricultural livestock and wildfowl, not people.

The only way that a curve at Arundel Junction could be justified would be if the New Towns Taskforce recommended a location in the Arun Valley. That isn't going to happen because the Arun Valley is a big flood plain with nowhere to build a large new town.

it is also worth pointing out that Arundel station is not actually in Arundel, it is the other side of the river in Crossbush. Anyone in Arundel wanting to make rail journeys along the Coastway is likely to use Ford station instead, which is not much further away.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

it is also worth pointing out that Arundel station is not actually in Arundel, it is the other side of the river in Crossbush. Anyone in Arundel wanting to make rail journeys along the Coastway is likely to use Ford station instead, which is not much further away.

As l actually live in Arundel, l can destroy that falsehood

People can and do walk to Arundel station. They do not walk to/from Ford

Arundel and its castle are major tourist destinations.
Thousands of people visit Stonehenge every year, and we both know what the population of Stonehenge is.

 

[dastocks]

wn1 2lf

I am told it was Southern, as a "promise" if they got the franchise from Connex
The broke the promise, but some people still do remember it.

I recall it being in the Connex submission that they lost to Southern (i.e. Go-Via).
I think part of the proposal was to run services from Victoria to Victoria via Arundel and Hove. I'm not sure how services between London and Littlehampton/Bognor/Chichester would have fitted into this.

Other highlights of that submission included reopening Uckfield-Lewes and electrification south of Hurst Green.

 

[PedroHav]

I'm not sure where the 6tph comes from. Arundel, and the other stations up the Arun valley, have a half hourly service in each direction starting at Bogner. There are 2 fast services in each direction, Barnham non stop Horsham, from Portsmouth/ Victoria. (The stopper and fast join up at Horsham to continue to Victoria). That's 4tph in each direction.

As previously said the passenger numbers from Arundel are a bit of a red herring given connection times at either Ford/Barnham. Also those driving to Ford. Maybe if there was a service turning east more people would be inclined to use it from the many stations up the Arun valley ...

 

[Magdalia]

Arundel and its castle are major tourist destinations.

Yes Arundel is a tourist attraction, but it isn't major, and it doesn't justify the need for a chord at Arundel Junction. Here in the Fens Ely has a magnificent cathedral, and a station a long way away, but nobody is using tourism as a justification for investing in the rail network at Ely. That's about feeding the fast growing economy in Cambridge and freight from Felixstowe. Arundel has neither of those economic imperatives.

I'm not sure how services between London and Littlehampton/Bognor/Chichester would have fitted into this.

Bognor Regis and Littlehampton/Rustington are a lot bigger than Arundel.

 

[PGAT]

I'm not sure where the 6tph comes from. Arundel, and the other stations up the Arun valley, have a half hourly service in each direction starting at Bogner. There are 2 fast services in each direction, Barnham non stop Horsham, from Portsmouth/ Victoria. (The stopper and fast join up at Horsham to continue to Victoria). That's 4tph in each direction.

As previously said the passenger numbers from Arundel are a bit of a red herring given connection times at either Ford/Barnham. Also those driving to Ford. Maybe if there was a service turning east more people would be inclined to use it from the many stations up the Arun valley ...

6tph is the figure along the West Coastway. Regardless, both lines see good enough service provision already

 

[devon_belle]

Regardless, both lines see good enough service provision already

True, although the connection times (as mentioned above) are poor. I have travelled from Mole Valley-Arun Valley-West Coastway several times and it is a real pain, with nearly 30 minute connections at both Horsham and Barnham.

Luckily I can almost always rely on late-running to run across Horsham and Barnham to make otherwise-impossible connections!

I suppose that without significant investment on the Coastway, the Arundel chord simply isn't needed? Unless there were trains from Dorking/Epsom/Sutton/etc to Bognor/Littlehampton/Portsmouth/Southampton. Is the main West Coastway constraint the Eastern part or the Western part (or both?).

 

[JonathanH]

Is the main West Coastway constraint the Eastern part or the Western part (or both?).

The main constraint is needing to operate both stoppers and faster services on a two track railway with essentially no passing loops. This is most acute on the Brighton side, but the junctions south of Arundel are a somewhat complex constraint.

 

[devon_belle]

The main constraint is needing to operate both stoppers and faster services on a two track railway with essentially no passing loops. This is most acute on the Brighton side, but the junctions south of Arundel are a somewhat complex constraint.

I think one of the NR documents I read said loops aren't enough to give stoppers and expresses, but dynamic three- or four-tracking between two or more stations would be required? There are some fairly desolate areas the line passes through, though I cannot comment on whether they are in the right location for these long loops to be useful. Another matter is which stations could be expanded to have more platforms? My guesses would be only really Ford and Barnham on the eastern side of the line. What a pickle.

One wonders the cost of that compared to re-opening Shoreham to Horsham... probably still cheaper to expand the West Coastway, as presumably some improvements would be needed between Shoreham and Brighton to support additional trains from Horsham.

 

[brad465]

Some fancy grade separation of Arundel junction to eliminate a number of flat crossing movements probably has a better business case than the aforementioned chord, but still not enough to justify doing.

I think one of the NR documents I read said loops aren't enough to give stoppers and expresses, but dynamic three- or four-tracking between two or more stations would be required? There are some fairly desolate areas the line passes through, though I cannot comment on whether they are in the right location for these long loops to be useful.

Worthing and Hove would allow passing eastbound as they already have island platforms favouring eastbound travel. Westbound the only place currently is Barnham, but by here all the Littlehampton trains are out of the way and the Bognor trains about to be. All the other stations would need a rebuild of at least one side of the station and in between stations some back garden and bridge demolitions/replacement.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

Yes Arundel is a tourist attraction, but it isn't major, and it doesn't justify the need for a chord at Arundel Junction. Here in the Fens Ely has a magnificent cathedral, and a station a long way away, but nobody is using tourism as a justification for investing in the rail network at Ely. That's about feeding the fast growing economy in Cambridge and freight from Felixstowe. Arundel has neither of those economic imperatives.

Magdalia. You seem to have a lot of local knowledge. Lets meet up in Arundel and discuss it further

Oh! Hang on! My offer stands, but it seems that if you are located in "The Fens", (150 miles away) - that might not be an easy task

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Some fancy grade separation of Arundel junction to eliminate a number of flat crossing movements probably has a better business case than the aforementioned chord, but still not enough to justify doing.

Probably would do I suspect. In many ways, its fortunate it doesn't get national attention for being a bottleneck like Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Oxford Road. The thing is though, when reliability is already pretty acceptable, even now at 10tph at Arundel Junction (and on a related note, 8tph at Ford Junction straight after the Littlehampton bypass chord), that doesn't really warrant investment at this point in time, given waiting at Junctions (as some trains I used sometimes had to do) really doesn't affect things much.

Worthing and Hove would allow passing eastbound as they already have island platforms favouring eastbound travel. Westbound the only place currently is Barnham, but by here all the Littlehampton trains are out of the way and the Bognor trains about to be. All the other stations would need a rebuild of at least one side of the station and in between stations some back garden and bridge demolitions/replacement.

In a world where they did want to have more passing trains, something they could do could be to modify track layouts at Worthing and Hove stations whereby all 3 platforms could be used in either direction, thus allowing westbound and eastbound trains to cross each other through the same track. In that world, at both stations, platform 1 instead of 2 would be the main Eastbound platform, with 3 still being the main Westbound platform. Platform 2 at both stations would then be the point where trains cross each other, and they would then be timetabled consecutively, so for example, a Southampton to Brighton train would call at Platform 2 first, and then a Brighton to Southampton train would call a few minutes after.

I think something like that can already just about happen at Hove, but not at Worthing, given platform 1 there has never been widely used in recent years, and that is now the case at Hove's platform 1 without the shuttle services now (other than sunday).

I think that is also how it seem to work at Barnham, as I remember getting the former 07:41 Bognor to Littlehampton train which always went through platform 1 at Barnham instead of platform 3, and then just crossing over just after leaving the station.

However, I have never particularly seen much passing (i.e. overtaking) ever happening on platform 1 at Barnham, given its generally always been for Bognor shuttles first and foremost, which now make up 50% of trains from Bognor instead of 25%. I did sometimes see some other Bognor trains sent through platform 1 sometimes, but that must be a case of a train running late, and not wanting to hold up a train heading to Chichester which ideally needs to call at platform 2.

As l actually live in Arundel, l can destroy that falsehood

People can and do walk to Arundel station. They do not walk to/from Ford

I can definately see that being the case with London bound services, given you obviously get a half hourly service, even if it can be argued that is a bit of a luxury with the size of Arundel (and other Arun Valley settlements for that matter, but obviously not worth complaining about by any means.

However, would that also apply to cases of travelling towards Brighton, given if you have to change at Ford/Barnham means that you might as well have gone from one of those stations, or some other Coastway station (probably by car though, not on foot) in the first place?

 

[CastlebarKeith]

However, would that also apply to cases of travelling towards Brighton, given if you have to change at Ford/Barnham means that you might as well have gone from one of those stations, or some other Coastway station (probably by car though, not on foot) in the first place?

People living in Amberley/Arundel often drive to Goring, park for free then get a 700 bus
Driving to Ford (VERY limited parking), or Barnham (very difficult to park these days after 7a.m) are no brainer ideas. They would have worked 20 years ago

 

[devon_belle]

Worthing and Hove would allow passing eastbound as they already have island platforms favouring eastbound travel. Westbound the only place currently is Barnham, but by here all the Littlehampton trains are out of the way and the Bognor trains about to be. All the other stations would need a rebuild of at least one side of the station and in between stations some back garden and bridge demolitions/replacement.

I think the issue is that timetabling a pass in a platform loop requires holding the overtaken train for several minutes, which may not be acceptable. Especially when Hove, Worthing, and Barnham are all worth stopping every train at.