Artwork - Featuring Liverpool & Manchester Railway

[MarkBoland]

Hi, just looking for some guidance and not sure I’m on the right site but here goes!

Was given this piece of artwork by my great uncle 8+ years ago as I’m from liverpool and my now wife from Manchester and we lived at an apartment at deansgate train station at the time and he give us this for the apartment.

He has since sadly passed and the artwork is still in our family home but no one knows its origins/price etc etc (probably other than him). He worked within art his whole life and had several valuable paintings. I want to make sure this isn’t something really obscure piece and I’ve got it hanging above my fireplace, uninsured!

Would anyone Be able to point me in the right direction?

Any help appreciated.

Thank you
Mark

 

[Big Jumby 74]

My best suggestion would be to contact, in the first instant, the archive curators at the National Railway Museum (NRM), with the image you have posted here, and perhaps in a wider context, the National Archives (TNA), although given the subject the NRM would be my first port of call.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, just looking for some guidance and not sure I’m on the right site but here goes!

Was given this piece of artwork by my great uncle 8+ years ago as I’m from liverpool and my now wife from Manchester and we lived at an apartment at deansgate train station at the time and he give us this for the apartment.

He has since sadly passed and the artwork is still in our family home but no one knows its origins/price etc etc (probably other than him). He worked within art his whole life and had several valuable paintings. I want to make sure this isn’t something really obscure piece and I’ve got it hanging above my fireplace, uninsured!

Would anyone Be able to point me in the right direction?

Any help appreciated.

Thank you
Mark

Hi Mark - Interesting thing.

Have you ever had it out of the frame?
Is it fabric or paper? (the way it is printed makes me wonder if it is to lie on a table (so all the images are the same way up) which is why I ask if it is cloth.

Any clues on it as to whether it looks like it is actually from c1830 when the railway opened, or some sort of reproduction? (the Railway line as you probably already know, being the world's first 'inter city' line was/is justifiably so famous as to have had much commemorative material made relating to it and anniversaries of its opening over the years that I have no doubt there is much stuff relating to is both old and rather newer. It's the route between the 2 cities via Rainhill & Newton Le Willows that you can still travel on today - but again you probably already know that!).

Hopefully people here will be able to give some good ideas as to its origins.

There are specialist 'Railwayana' auctioneers (eg Great Central Sheffield Railwayana being one) who would almost certainly have staff that could help assess it for value, including for insurance purposes - as not suggesting you would want to sell it. They may even be able to give you an initial indication from photos.

If it were genuinely old I'd be avoiding subjecting it to bright light due to risk of fading (and red is very susceptible to fading). But if it is not especially faded then that might be a clue to age.

 

[weepingwillowb]

The list of the twelve views is in both English and French.

 

[30907]

The list of the twelve views is in both English and French.

plus the title is also in German, suggesting an international market. Intriguing!

 

[MarkBoland]

Hi Mark - Interesting thing.

Have you ever had it out of the frame?
Is it fabric or paper? (the way it is printed makes me wonder if it is to lie on a table (so all the images are the same way up) which is why I ask if it is cloth.

Any clues on it as to whether it looks like it is actually from c1830 when the railway opened, or some sort of reproduction? (the Railway line as you probably already know, being the world's first 'inter city' line was/is justifiably so famous as to have had much commemorative material made relating to it and anniversaries of its opening over the years that I have no doubt there is much stuff relating to is both old and rather newer. It's the route between the 2 cities via Rainhill & Newton Le Willows that you can still travel on today - but again you probably already know that!).

Hopefully people here will be able to give some good ideas as to its origins.

There are specialist 'Railwayana' auctioneers (eg Sheffield Railwayana being one) who would almost certainly have staff that could help assess it for value, including for insurance purposes - as not suggesting you would want to sell it. They may even be able to give you an initial indication from photos.

If it were genuinely old I'd be avoiding subjecting it to bright light due to risk of fading (and red is very susceptible to fading). But if it is not especially faded then that might be a clue to age.

Thanks for that, I do believe it to be very old. My uncle said it the embroidery was on a woman’s scarf? But again this was 8+ years ago and I didn’t go into great detail. I’ve never had it out of the frame as I wouldn’t want to ruin it. It was when we have just finished building a home when my wife said have I included the artwork on the insurance and it dawned on me…. I didn’t have the slightest idea how much it was worth or it’s origins Etc.

With regards to the languages - He was fluent in many European languages and he was originally from St.Helens.

Really appreciate your help.

Hi Mark - Interesting thing.

Have you ever had it out of the frame?
Is it fabric or paper? (the way it is printed makes me wonder if it is to lie on a table (so all the images are the same way up) which is why I ask if it is cloth.

Any clues on it as to whether it looks like it is actually from c1830 when the railway opened, or some sort of reproduction? (the Railway line as you probably already know, being the world's first 'inter city' line was/is justifiably so famous as to have had much commemorative material made relating to it and anniversaries of its opening over the years that I have no doubt there is much stuff relating to is both old and rather newer. It's the route between the 2 cities via Rainhill & Newton Le Willows that you can still travel on today - but again you probably already know that!).

Hopefully people here will be able to give some good ideas as to its origins.

There are specialist 'Railwayana' auctioneers (eg Sheffield Railwayana being one) who would almost certainly have staff that could help assess it for value, including for insurance purposes - as not suggesting you would want to sell it. They may even be able to give you an initial indication from photos.

If it were genuinely old I'd be avoiding subjecting it to bright light due to risk of fading (and red is very susceptible to fading). But if it is not especially faded then that might be a clue to age.

 

[Magdalia]

There are specialist 'Railwayana' auctioneers (eg Sheffield Railwayana being one) who would almost certainly have staff that could help assess it for value

I would agree with this in general terms, but Sheffield Railwayana have not existed as a separate entity for many years. Great Central Railwayana Auctions own the Sheffield Railwayana name and use it occasionally. The other big player is Great Western Railwayana Auctions but there are others.

 

[WesternLancer]

I would agree with this in general terms, but Sheffield Railwayana have not existed as a separate entity for many years. Great Central Railwayana Auctions own the Sheffield Railwayana name and use it occasionally. The other big player is Great Western Railwayana Auctions but there are others.

Thanks for updating that info!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==

Thanks for that, I do believe it to be very old. My uncle said it the embroidery was on a woman’s scarf? But again this was 8+ years ago and I didn’t go into great detail. I’ve never had it out of the frame as I wouldn’t want to ruin it. It was when we have just finished building a home when my wife said have I included the artwork on the insurance and it dawned on me…. I didn’t have the slightest idea how much it was worth or it’s origins Etc.

With regards to the languages - He was fluent in many European languages and he was originally from St.Helens.

Really appreciate your help.

Thanks Mark - if you have a good sense that it is old then I'd say well worth getting it valued properly (even if you don't wish to sell and make it clear that you want a valuation that they would charge for) - quite often a valuer will give you different values for insurance purposes and for sale purposes, which seems odd but IIRC is the convention.

Obv keep an eye on the thread as people who know more about it may offer good advice if they see the post (just a thought but maybe change your tread title to eg 'Artwork featuring Liverpool and Manchester Railway' to catch the eye of people with a particular interest in this famous railway.

Also as suggested you may get good info (tho I suspect not valuations) from places like the National Railway Museum, The Friends of the National Railway Museum (volunteers who may have more time to help people!) or the Museums and Galleries on Merseyside.

 

[MarkBoland]

I would agree with this in general terms, but Sheffield Railwayana have not existed as a separate entity for many years. Great Central Railwayana Auctions own the Sheffield Railwayana name and use it occasionally. The other big player is Great Western Railwayana Auctions but there are others.

Thank you, appreciate that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==

Thanks for updating that info!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Apr 2023 ==


Thanks Mark - if you have a good sense that it is old then I'd say well worth getting it valued properly (even if you don't wish to sell and make it clear that you want a valuation that they would charge for) - quite often a valuer will give you different values for insurance purposes and for sale purposes, which seems odd but IIRC is the convention.

Obv keep an eye on the thread as people who know more about it may offer good advice if they see the post (just a thought but maybe change your tread title to eg 'Artwork featuring Liverpool and Manchester Railway' to catch the eye of people with a particular interest in this famous railway.

Also as suggested you may get good info (tho I suspect not valuations) from places like the National Railway Museum, The Friends of the National Railway Museum (volunteers who may have more time to help people!) or the Museums and Galleries on Merseyside.

Brilliant, thank you. That’s really beneficial

 

[timmydunn]

So that I might shortcut both your time and that of those at York. I can tell you immediately that this is likely 1830, unless there was a more recent recreation done. Check the third image - at least one version of this has 1831 in it.

It is a handkerchief. Yes, a handkerchief. There’s one in the collection: https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...iverpool-manchester-railway-1830-handkerchief

Value? Seems to be between £300-£1000 if online auction records are believed.

 

[WesternLancer]

So that I might shortcut both your time and that of those at York. I can tell you immediately that this is likely 1830, unless there was a more recent recreation done. Check the third image - at least one version of this has 1831 in it.

It is a handkerchief. Yes, a handkerchief. There’s one in the collection: https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...iverpool-manchester-railway-1830-handkerchief

Value? Seems to be between £300-£1000 if online auction records are believed.

A very interesting link Mr Dunn! Complete with a letter of authentication - or sort of. Excellent research.

 

[MarkBoland]

So that I might shortcut both your time and that of those at York. I can tell you immediately that this is likely 1830, unless there was a more recent recreation done. Check the third image - at least one version of this has 1831 in it.

It is a handkerchief. Yes, a handkerchief. There’s one in the collection: https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...iverpool-manchester-railway-1830-handkerchief

Value? Seems to be between £300-£1000 if online auction records are believed.

Brilliant, really interesting. Much appreciated