Article on WCML electrification

[GS250]

Really enjoyed the article in RM regarding the West Coast electricification. Didn't realise just how bad things had got with dwindling passenger numbers in the late 70s and 80s. The idea of cutting IC services short at Preston certainly stood out! Was fairly obvious that HSTs being introduced on the relatively straight ECML was more appealing for Anglo-Scot passengers.

Would have been interesting as to what would have happened to both major routes if the ECML was electrified first. I suppose the AL1-6s would have ruled the roost in the earlier days. The 87 may have been introduced as a 125mph locomotive?

The WCML, feeling pretty hard done by would have probably got the Deltics. Superceded by HSTs with some stretches of track re engineered to allow for 125mph operation. Electrification of the entire route in the 80s may have seen tilting versions of the mk4s and 91s introduced.

Either way the poor old MML would have probably missed out on anything major as per usual.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Really enjoyed the article in RM regarding the West Coast electricification. Didn't realise just how bad things had got with dwindling passenger numbers in the late 70s and 80s. The idea of cutting IC services short at Preston certainly stood out! Was fairly obvious that HSTs being introduced on the relatively straight ECML was more appealing for Anglo-Scot passengers.

Would have been interesting as to what would have happened to both major routes if the ECML was electrified first. I suppose the AL1-6s would have ruled the roost in the earlier days. The 87 may have been introduced as a 125mph locomotive?

The WCML, feeling pretty hard done by would have probably got the Deltics. Superceded by HSTs with some stretches of track re engineered to allow for 125mph operation. Electrification of the entire route in the 80s may have seen tilting versions of the mk4s and 91s introduced.

Either way the poor old MML would have probably missed out on anything major as per usual.

Not sure what point you are trying to make. The WCML electrification was completed in 1974 but had been on-going for a decade. In terms of choosing between ECML and WCML for such work the die had long since been cast. And hardly surprising when you consider just how much of the population the WCML serves compared to the ECML. Development of the APT would likely never have happened if BR's focus had been on the ECML so who knows what might (or might not) have happened with tilting train technology.

Yes Anglo-Scottish traffic is valuable and Edinburgh has consistently proved to be a bigger draw than Glasgow. But West Midlands & North West are much bigger than West Yorkshire and the North East and also generate their own flows both "internally" and to/from Scotland via Carlisle. BR made the right decision regardless of bumps along the way.

 

[norbitonflyer]

. In terms of choosing between ECML and WCML for such work the die had long since been cast. And hardly surprising when you consider just how much of the population the WCML serves compared to the ECML.

Had the North Eastern Railway's pre-WW1 project to electrify its part of the ECML gone ahead, or the LNER extended its project beyond Sheffield towards East Anglia, as another thread recently suggested, the story might have been different!

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Dr. B., of course, wanted to close Newcastle to Edinburgh in his second report concluding that one route into Scotland was sufficient. Maintenance on the route was even paused for a time in anticipation of closure.

 

[Helvellyn]

Really enjoyed the article in RM regarding the West Coast electrification. Didn't realise just how bad things had got with dwindling passenger numbers in the late 70s and 80s. The idea of cutting IC services short at Preston certainly stood out! Was fairly obvious that HSTs being introduced on the relatively straight ECML was more appealing for Anglo-Scot passengers.

Would have been interesting as to what would have happened to both major routes if the ECML was electrified first. I suppose the AL1-6s would have ruled the roost in the earlier days. The 87 may have been introduced as a 125mph locomotive?

The WCML, feeling pretty hard done by would have probably got the Deltics. Superseded by HSTs with some stretches of track re engineered to allow for 125mph operation. Electrification of the entire route in the 80s may have seen tilting versions of the mk4s and 91s introduced.

Either way the poor old MML would have probably missed out on anything major as per usual.

Why would the WCML have got the Deltics? The Deltics were built specifically for the ECML taking advantage of the relatively easier route. The 100mph diesel locomotives on the WCML were the Class 50s, which were meant to operate in pairs for the heaviest services over Shap and Beattock (although frequently would only be a single locomotive due to availability).

Now if after the first phase of WCML electrification, which got as far North as Weaver Junction, the attention had switched to electrifying the ECML you could have seen things working out very differently. There might have been a case to extend the WCML electrification north to Preston, with diesel haulage for remaining services. But if the ECML had been electrified in the early/mid 1970s then I doubt we'd have seen as many HSTs built and possibly none for the ECML given BR policy until sectorisation was to minimise diesel use under the wires as much as possible. The Class 50s would have remained on the WCML for the northern part of the route, so the question would have been what would have replaced the Westerns for non-HST operated services. Likewise, if the Deltics had been displaced from ECML services by electrification in the early 1970s I wonder if they'd have gone west, or retained on the ECML for services North of Newcastle (if the wires only went there).

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The 87 may have been introduced as a 125mph locomotive?

Cl 87s were in traffic for the start of Electric working to Scotland in 1974, built as a 110 mph loco on what was then 100mph route.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Dr. B., of course, wanted to close Newcastle to Edinburgh in his second report concluding that one route into Scotland was sufficient. Maintenance on the route was even paused for a time in anticipation of closure.

The ‘second report’ was about the Development of Major Trunk Routes, not closures. A detailed study of freight flows and potential in particular by the BR Board’s member for planning - former Scottish Region GM, James Ness, had failed to identify sufficient traffic to justify Trunk Route status north of Newcastle at the time. (Dr Beeching left BR almost as soon as it was published so any changes in maintenance policy were down to his successor.)
It is easy to forget that in 1965 there were only single figures of daytime passenger trains each way via Berwick!

 

[tbwbear]

Why would the WCML have got the Deltics? The Deltics were built specifically for the ECML taking advantage of the relatively easier route. The 100mph diesel locomotives on the WCML were the Class 50s, which were meant to operate in pairs for the heaviest services over Shap and Beattock (although frequently would only be a single locomotive due to availability).

It is an interesting question.

IIRC the 1955 modernisation plan had electrification schemes for both Euston Liverpool /Manchester and also Kings Cross Doncaster /Leeds.

Meanwhile the Deltic prototype entered traffic in October 1955 and until 1959 was being tested on the LMR, primarily on Liverpool to Euston trains but also with Carlisle trips often thrown in.

The wiring plan for the ECML was soon postponed / cancelled and ER management’s attention switched to the deltic prototype and that led to the production order for the 22 deltics.

But the WCML scheme also came close to cancellation after the Liverpool and Manchester to Crewe sections had been completed. So it is entirely possible that more deltics could have been ordered for services out of Euston.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Why would the WCML have got the Deltics? The Deltics were built specifically for the ECML taking advantage of the relatively easier route. The 100mph diesel locomotives on the WCML were the Class 50s, which were meant to operate in pairs for the heaviest services over Shap and Beattock (although frequently would only be a single locomotive due to availability).

Double headed class 50s only came in for an accelerated timetable (can't remember what year). When introduced trains were worked by a single class 50.

 

[hexagon789]

Double headed class 50s only came in for an accelerated timetable (can't remember what year). When introduced trains were worked by a single class 50.

1970 was the accelerated service IIRC, some Glasgows took a few mins under 6 hrs. The Royal Scot was 6 dead each way.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It is an interesting question.

IIRC the 1955 modernisation plan had electrification schemes for both Euston Liverpool /Manchester and also Kings Cross Doncaster /Leeds.

Meanwhile the Deltic prototype entered traffic in October 1955 and until 1959 was being tested on the LMR, primarily on Liverpool to Euston trains but also with Carlisle trips often thrown in.

The wiring plan for the ECML was soon cancelled and ER management’s attention switched to the deltic prototype and that led to the production order for the 22 deltics.

But the WCML scheme also came close to cancellation after the Liverpool and Manchester to Crewe sections had been completed. So it is entirely possible that more deltics could have been ordered for services out of Euston.

Yes, I believe class 309s were originally going to be used to Leeds? Would be interesting to see what would have happened if the original LM electrification used class 309s too.

 

[tbwbear]

1970 was the accelerated service IIRC, some Glasgows took a few mins under 6 hrs. The Royal Scot was 6 dead each way.

4th May 1970 -

Down Royal Scot - Euston 1005, Crewe 1209/18 (loco change) Carlisle 1419 Glasgow Central 1559 (5 hours 54 mins)

0800 ex-Euston =Watford J, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow in 6hrs 8 mins
1205 ex Euston = Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Beattock, Carstairs, Glasgow in 6hrs 14 mins
1405 ex Euston = Crewe, Carlisle, Dumfries, Kilmarnock, Glasgow in 6hrs 15 mins
1605 ex Euston =Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Motherwell, Glasgow in 5hrs 59 mins


Up Royal Scot - Glasgow 1000, Carlisle 1137/1143, Crewe 1345/56 and Euston at 1600 (6 hours)

0740 ex Glasgow = Kilmarnock, Dumfries, Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Euston in 6hr 20 mins
1200 ex Glasgow = Carstairs, Beattock, Lockerbie, Carlisle (1347/1350), Preston, Crewe (1554/1603), Euston (1800) in 6 hours
1400 ex Glasgow = Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Euston in 5hrs 55 mins
1600 ex Glasgow = Motherwell, Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Watford Junction, Euston in 6 hours

Interesting that the timing for the up Royal Scot was so slow - compare its intermediate times with those of the 1200 ex Glasgow which had far more stops -
The Royal Scot stopped a combined 5 minutes longer at Carlisle and Crewe, and took 7 minutes longer between Crewe and Euston. The 1200 ex Glasgow only dropped 10 minutes for 3 extra stops before Carlisle and only 2 minutes for the Preston stop.

The equivalent down trains were different. The down Royal Scot was 6 minutes quicker and the down "Beattock stopper" was 14 slower.

Any ideas why ? Possibly the desire to keep a regular pattern 00 departure from Glasgow and slot into the 00 arrival at Euston ??

NB - Beattock closed in January 1972

Edited to add - The 1969 (pre dual Class 50) timings for the "Royal Scots" were....

Euston 1005, Crewe 1206/15, Carlisle 1444, Glasgow 1650. (6hr 45)
Glasgow 1010, Carlisle 1209, Crewe 1438/1446, Euston 1645. (6hr 35)

 

[hexagon789]

4th May 1970 -

Down Royal Scot - Euston 1005, Crewe 1209/18 (loco change) Carlisle 1419 Glasgow Central 1559 (5 hours 54 mins)

0800 ex-Euston =Watford J, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow in 6hrs 8 mins
1205 ex Euston = Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Beattock, Carstairs, Glasgow in 6hrs 14 mins
1405 ex Euston = Crewe, Carlisle, Dumfries, Kilmarnock, Glasgow in 6hrs 15 mins
1605 ex Euston =Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Motherwell, Glasgow in 5hrs 59 mins


Up Royal Scot - Glasgow 1000, Carlisle 1137/1143, Crewe 1345/56 and Euston at 1600 (6 hours)

0740 ex Glasgow = Kilmarnock, Dumfries, Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Euston in 6hr 20 mins
1200 ex Glasgow = Carstairs, Beattock, Lockerbie, Carlisle (1347/1350), Preston, Crewe (1554/1603), Euston (1800) in 6 hours
1400 ex Glasgow = Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Euston in 5hrs 55 mins
1600 ex Glasgow = Motherwell, Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Watford Junction, Euston in 6 hours

Interesting that the timing for the up Royal Scot was so slow - compare its intermediate times with those of the 1200 ex Glasgow which had far more stops -
The Royal Scot stopped a combined 5 minutes longer at Carlisle and Crewe, and took 7 minutes longer between Crewe and Euston. The 1200 ex Glasgow only dropped 10 minutes for 3 extra stops before Carlisle and only 2 minutes for the Preston stop.

The equivalent down trains were different. The down Royal Scot was 6 minutes quicker and the down "Beattock stopper" was 14 slower.

Any ideas why ? Possibly the desire to keep a regular pattern 00 departure from Glasgow and slot into the 00 arrival at Euston ??

NB - Beattock closed in January 1972

Edited to add - The 1969 (pre dual Class 50) timings for the "Royal Scots" were....

Euston 1005, Crewe 1206/15, Carlisle 1444, Glasgow 1650. (6hr 45)
Glasgow 1010, Carlisle 1209, Crewe 1438/1446, Euston 1645. (6hr 35)

I'm obviously remembering timings off a different timetable, possibly '73 which I do possess.

As to why the difference in timings for the Royal Scot, possibly pathing - possibly something else.

There was definitely a similar situation immediately before electrification where another train made more stops but was about 5 or 6 mins quicker, so not a situation applying only in 1970.

 

[tbwbear]

I'm obviously remembering timings off a different timetable, possibly '73 which I do possess.

As to why the difference in timings for the Royal Scot, possibly pathing - possibly something else.

There was definitely a similar situation immediately before electrification where another train made more stops but was about 5 or 6 mins quicker, so not a situation applying only in 1970.

It is interesting in that a lot of these accelerated timings only lasted one year. Electrification was authorized and work began - and with it disruption - so by the 1971 timetable the down Royal Scot was back to 6 hour 33 mins - although the 1605 maintained its 5hr 59 timing that year. I think you are right about 1973, I don't have that schedule. But from memory, trains got faster again once the bulk of the work was completed. Preston went electric in July 73, but IIRC the Royal Scot was still changing locomotives at Crewe and never called at Preston until that became its only stop in May 1974.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

4th May 1970 -

Down Royal Scot - Euston 1005, Crewe 1209/18 (loco change) Carlisle 1419 Glasgow Central 1559 (5 hours 54 mins)

0800 ex-Euston =Watford J, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow in 6hrs 8 mins
1205 ex Euston = Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Beattock, Carstairs, Glasgow in 6hrs 14 mins
1405 ex Euston = Crewe, Carlisle, Dumfries, Kilmarnock, Glasgow in 6hrs 15 mins
1605 ex Euston =Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Motherwell, Glasgow in 5hrs 59 mins


Up Royal Scot - Glasgow 1000, Carlisle 1137/1143, Crewe 1345/56 and Euston at 1600 (6 hours)

0740 ex Glasgow = Kilmarnock, Dumfries, Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Euston in 6hr 20 mins
1200 ex Glasgow = Carstairs, Beattock, Lockerbie, Carlisle (1347/1350), Preston, Crewe (1554/1603), Euston (1800) in 6 hours
1400 ex Glasgow = Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Euston in 5hrs 55 mins
1600 ex Glasgow = Motherwell, Carlisle, Preston, Crewe, Watford Junction, Euston in 6 hours

Interesting to note back then routing of the 07.40 up and 14.05 down via Dumfries did not add a huge amount of time despite longer mileage and lower line speeds.

 

[tbwbear]

Interesting to note back then routing of the 07.40 up and 14.05 down via Dumfries did not add a huge amount of time despite longer mileage and lower line speeds.

Yes, and in 1971 when all but the 1605 ex Euston were timed for diversion via Dumfries, the Carlisle-Glasgow times only increased by about 10 mins. In 1971 the 1605 is the only one of the 10 up/down trains to call at Motherwell or any station on the Beattock route. The pair that stopped at Carstairs, Beattock, Lockerbie in 1970 made one stop at Dumfries in 1971 instead.

 

[Magdalia]

IIRC the 1955 modernisation plan had electrification schemes for both Euston Liverpool /Manchester and also Kings Cross Doncaster /Leeds.

Meanwhile the Deltic prototype entered traffic in October 1955 and until 1959 was being tested on the LMR, primarily on Liverpool to Euston trains but also with Carlisle trips often thrown in.

The wiring plan for the ECML was soon postponed / cancelled and ER management’s attention switched to the deltic prototype and that led to the production order for the 22 deltics.

The ECML ordered the Deltics before ECML electrification was kicked into the long grass. The Deltics were originally intended as a stopgap to last about 10 years until electrification.