Article in Sheffield Star about Pacers

[YorkshireBear]

As has been pointed out earlier, those of us in the South East did until about a decade ago have to use 40 - 45 year old slam door stocks on routes such as Brighton - London. However, as has also been mentioned the most newest stock is for London with some routes such as the Brighton - Seaford route going from being run by Class 377 units to be run by 30 year old Class 313 units as the Class 377 units are being moved to bolster the Brighton - London services, but also to be used to run suburban routes from outer London into Victora/London Bridge.

The issue is not that the South east is getting the newer trains, but the London area is getting the newer trains. Before anyone mentions let me remind you that a 1980's pacer unit is newer than a 1970's class 313 unit.

The main reason I think that London is getting the newer trains is simple, 'The Olympic Games'.

True, but i still think a pacer is worse than a 313.

Lets face it the south gets more trains cos theres more people. More demand. A 2 car pacer is enough for most off peak services in northern area.

I think if northern area wants new trains demand needs to be introduced. I'd love it if a 4 car sprinter was needed on my local line (hallam line) but it just isn't.

 

[RobShipway]

True, but i still think a pacer is worse than a 313.

Lets face it the south gets more trains cos theres more people. More demand. A 2 car pacer is enough for most off peak services in northern area.

I think if northern area wants new trains demand needs to be introduced. I'd love it if a 4 car sprinter was needed on my local line (hallam line) but it just isn't.

Jimmy, I was just making the point that not all the South East is getting or using relatively new trains on their routes. Even the Brighton to London route is getting 20 plus year trains in the form of the Class 442 trains which are replacing 377's that where being used in some cases and more newer class 460 stock which was doing the Gatwick Express services. Although, the mechanics in the class 442 trains are some 40 plus years old I believe, but having said that they are very good trains.

I agree that when it comes to getting new trains, all areas of the country should be equal but as you say that is not the demand there when the current trains are not as yet life expired.

 

[Boothby97]

In the past 10 years or so, Class 170/175/180/185 are the only new DMUs in Northern half of the country compared to all the EMUs of the south. At the moment it isn't equal. How would the southern region (I know it would not happen) that if the Class 158/159/171 fleet swapped with some pacers in the Northern area. We deserve some brand new Dmus. I know I travel on 170/185s all the time.

 

[northwichcat]

most off peak services in northern area.

Depends how you define off-peak.

If you define off-peak as 10:30-15:00 and 18:30 onwards in school term time then yes most services in the Northern area are fine to run as a 120 seater train in off-peak periods.

If you define off-peak as before 09:30 and 16:01-17:59 as Northern do for their Duo tickets then no I'd disagree.

One afternoon I was at Manchester Piccadilly in school half-term for around half an hour around 2-3pm and virtually every Northern and TPE service was leaving and arriving with people standing.

 

[Boothby97]

As my Grandad says why don't we get some of these stored coaches and locos and use them on Busy services.
Probably will never happen though.
Can't wait to see a Class 20 in Northern livery and a Class 33 in Transpennine Livery.

 

[ainsworth74]

As my Grandad says why don't we get some of these stored coaches and locos and use them on Busy services.

What stored coaches? As crops up fairly regularly there aren't dozens of Mk1s and Mk2s lying around the place waiting to be put to use, nearly everything is either in service already or owned by charter companies. Now you could probably charter in some rakes (as happens from time to time look at the Fife Circle services) but it still isn't going to be that many and it will also be expensive and very operationally complex.

I would like see more loco hauled services around the country but it just isn't going to happen due to cost, operation difficulties and lack of resources.

 

[RobShipway]

As my Grandad says why don't we get some of these stored coaches and locos and use them on Busy services.
Probably will never happen though.
Can't wait to see a Class 20 in Northern livery and a Class 33 in Transpennine Livery.

I would have to agree with your Granddad's comment, rather than allowing the coaches to rust without use have them working to ease the pain until newer stock can be obtained.

One point I would make though, is that the new trains in the South did not happen overnight and as mentioned before there does need to be the demand there to show that it is worthwhile new stock being provided. The South East has been able to do that with the amount of population as has teh North with the arrival of Class 170/175/180/185, plus Class 333, 323, 350/1 & 350/2's etc... in some areas but not all areas. Which means you may have to be going on with either Pacers until they are life expired or something like the class 150's can be used in their place.

 

[Boothby97]

Plan to stop overcrowding!

 

[DarloRich]

What stored coaches? As crops up fairly regularly there aren't dozens of Mk1s and Mk2s lying around the place waiting to be put to use, nearly everything is either in service already or owned by charter companies. Now you could probably charter in some rakes (as happens from time to time look at the Fife Circle services) but it still isn't going to be that many and it will also be expensive and very operationally complex.

I would like see more loco hauled services around the country but it just isn't going to happen due to cost, operation difficulties and lack of resources.

Agreed - there is very little stock in store!

 

[Boothby97]

Agreed - there is very little stock in store!

There are just below 200 coaches awaiting disposal!

 

[ainsworth74]

There are just below 200 coaches awaiting disposal!

What coaches and where are they currently?

 

[Boothby97]

What coaches and where are they currently?

At Derby RTC,Carnorth,Kingmoor,Crewe,Cragentinny,Rugby,Eastleigh,Toton and Tysely. From BR Railways Pocket Book no.2 Coaching Stock 2011 (In the Awaiting Disposal Section Pages 106-107)

 

[ainsworth74]

What types are they? Also what condition are they in?

 

[Boothby97]

Mark 1, Mark 2, HST Coaches and Departmental and Motorail coaches.
For the Motorail coaches (of which 4 are at the back of Rugby Station) seem to be in fine condition but the rest I don't know.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Mark 1, Mark 2, HST Coaches and Departmental and Motorail coaches.
For the Motorail coaches (of which 4 are at the back of Rugby Station) seem to be in fine condition but the rest I don't know.

which HST coaches are being disposed of? i thought there were none spare?

 

[ainsworth74]

Mark 1, Mark 2, HST Coaches and Departmental and Motorail coaches.

Well you're going to struggle to fit many passengers on former Departmental and Motorail coaches! As I recall the HSTs vehicles are mostly buffets so they're not much use.

The Mk1s and Mk2s are more interesting but I would suspect their condition is pretty poor if their being disposed of and probably beyond economical return to service refurbs (they're old old vehicles by now). Certainly if the Mk2s were in good nick I would have expected someone to have snapped them up by now.

 

[Boothby97]

which HST coaches are being disposed of? i thought there were none spare?

40208/209/228 are at Eastleigh.
40402/403/416/419/434 are at Long Marston.
A Few Kitchen Coaches are stored.
44088/089 Are also at Long Marston.
And 40417/425 are awaiting disposal at Kilmarnock.
41043 is at Doncaster Works (I saw it last week).
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Well you're going to struggle to fit many passengers on former Departmental and Motorail coaches! As I recall the HSTs vehicles are mostly buffets so they're not much use.

The Mk1s and Mk2s are more interesting but I would suspect their condition is pretty poor if their being disposed of and probably beyond economical return to service refurbs (they're old old vehciles by now). Certainly if the Mk2s were in good nick I would have expected someone to have snapped them up by now.

Kitchen Coaches can be converted can't they?

 

[ainsworth74]

Kitchen Coaches can be converted can't they?

As far as I'm aware it's been looked at and considered too expensive and I think there were concerns over the structural integrity of the vehicles after conversion (same reason why the Mk3 sleepers weren't converted).

 

[Boothby97]

Okay, Thanks