Article in Sheffield Star about Pacers

[bladesman123]

If this has already been mentioned then could a mod please remove.

This seems like a non-story typical of The Star these days, this paper has gone downhill IMO

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...ess_yet_today_it_s_still_in_service_1_3290918

 

[BestWestern]

"...date back to when Nelson Mandella was in prison..." - is that the lamest attempt at a sensationalist comparison ever?! We all know that Pacers shouldn't be hacking up and down the mainline in rush hour packed to the rafters, but it looks set to carry on for a good while yet. Let's hope these journos haven't been told about the 142's FGW are sending back up north!!

 

[Yew]

Should we petition our my's for no new rolling stock for london, until the pacers are replaced? heck, give the old LU stock to northern, and have it hauled by locos.

The dangerous argument is only to try and make the govenrment listen, becuase overercrowding can be said for pretty much all lines into london. iot would be nice to see ther LARGEST TOC, with the OLDEST FLEET, get NEW trains. Not cast offs from LO, and other TOC's

 

[YorkshireBear]

The dangerous argument is only to try and make the govenrment listen, becuase overercrowding can be said for pretty much all lines into london. iot would be nice to see ther LARGEST TOC, with the OLDEST FLEET, get NEW trains. Not cast offs from LO, and other TOC's

add to that northern is a huge growth area.

the comments on it are just as bad, labour ordered new trains and tories cancelled them. a northern member of staff corrected them. I dont poticularly like tories but they havent done too bad to railways since cuts

 

[Blindtraveler]

add to that northern is a huge growth area.

the comments on it are just as bad, labour ordered new trains and tories cancelled them. a northern member of staff corrected them. I dont poticularly like tories but they havent done too bad to railways since cuts

I suppose you have a point there, and we can't blame hammond and co for IEP, much as we'd like too.

If pacers were that unsafe then our health and safety conciouse authorities would have withdrawn them, no matter how much bustitution or even reintroduction of slam door stock it meant. Ok there not nice when full and standing but niether are voyagers turbostars or mk2s! Mostly though, there safe and fit for purpose.

This sort of media coverage wil only frighten the public and give rail a bad name. people want it all at once - lower council tax, no government borrowing, better public services and, urm, pacer replacements. In 2 simple words, not possible!

 

[ChrisCooper]

This sort of media coverage wil only frighten the public and give rail a bad name. people want it all at once - lower council tax, no government borrowing, better public services and, urm, pacer replacements. In 2 simple words, not possible!

and fare increases kept under control. As much as people like to blaim the coalition, the previous government, the banks, the rich, the scroungers, the immigrants etc for the mess this country is in, a bit part of the problem is the ordinary people who seem to want it all without having to pay for it. They sit in their modern house on their brand new Sofa, infront of their brand new widescreen TV, drive around in their brand new car (or 2) and go off on their foreign holidays in posh hotels, none of which they can afford other than on credit. No wonder they then expect the public sector to provide the same standards for it's services as they pay for themselves. People do not know how to live within their means these days, and it's true across the board, infact I think the middle classes are worst for it, along with the benefit class.

 

[YorkshireBear]

and fare increases kept under control. As much as people like to blaim the coalition, the previous government, the banks, the rich, the scroungers, the immigrants etc for the mess this country is in, a bit part of the problem is the ordinary people who seem to want it all without having to pay for it. They sit in their modern house on their brand new Sofa, infront of their brand new widescreen TV, drive around in their brand new car (or 2) and go off on their foreign holidays in posh hotels, none of which they can afford other than on credit. No wonder they then expect the public sector to provide the same standards for it's services as they pay for themselves. People do not know how to live within their means these days, and it's true across the board, infact I think the middle classes are worst for it, along with the benefit class.

very good point there got to agree with you. that is all.

 

[junglejames]

Ha ha. We are to replace all trains that dont meet current safety standards.
No problem. That means virtually every single train in the UK. Safety standards change all the time, and so trains would be lasting a few years before being replaced. Crikey, Pendys will be getting replaced in 5yrs if we go along with this (oh actually, 5yrs is 5yrs too many!!!). What a silly silly comment by that MP. Oh wait, he's an MP, what did i expect!!

So many people automatically think that New is good and old is bad. For heavens sake, think a bit before opening your mouth. So what if trains are from the 70s or 80. It doesnt make them bad. So what if Mandella was in prison at the time. Does that mean they must be bad because of that? Old can be just as good as new sometimes. It doesnt make them bad.

I do suggest though that the person who wrote this article stops travelling by car. Oh, and perhaps by plane as well. Afterall, when they crash, they make more of a mess than Pacers do.

 

[tbtc]

Ha ha. We are to replace all trains that dont meet current safety standards.
No problem. That means virtually every single train in the UK. Safety standards change all the time, and so trains would be lasting a few years before being replaced

I agree. I'd imagine most houses don't meet current building standards (for new-builds) - should we knock all old houses down whilst we are at it?

I'm not a fan of Pacers, but some of the arguments against them in this article were truly pathetic.

 

[Geezertronic]

You've got to wonder how some of the older cars you see travelling around could pass their MOT so the same applies to them, trucks, buses etc...

 

[142094]

You've got to wonder how some of the older cars you see travelling around could pass their MOT so the same applies to them, trucks, buses etc...

More than likely they don't take a MOT. Probably an unlicensed, uninsured and untaxed driver as well. Don't understand why the Govt doesn't employ more people to go out and look for these drivers, make a fortune in fines (well, if they pay them that is).

 

[junglejames]

I agree. I'd imagine most houses don't meet current building standards (for new-builds) - should we knock all old houses down whilst we are at it?

I'm not a fan of Pacers, but some of the arguments against them in this article were truly pathetic.

Yeah, shall we write to the paper and tell them that the suggestions in their article surely mean we should knock houses down?!! In fact, tell the MP how pathetic is comment was, then go round telling everyone in his constituency that he wants to konck down their houses and scrap their cars!!
In fact, we could probably send a demolition team round to his house and pretend it needs knocking down as it doesnt comply with current standards!!!

I know im being silly, but it would be funny

 

[atomicdanny]

Why is it every time the pacers argument comes up, someone always brings up London and the South East? (this time it was in the paper comments) with the new Electrostars / Turbostars / Desiros (i.e. Plastic Crap - the 376s more so... - even though they replaced even older stock than the pacers). Personally I wish they would get rid of at least the pacers and the 150s and replace them with something newer such as those 172s but I doubt that would happen any time soon!

 

[junglejames]

I agree. I'd imagine most houses don't meet current building standards (for new-builds) - should we knock all old houses down whilst we are at it?

I'm not a fan of Pacers, but some of the arguments against them in this article were truly pathetic.

Just emailed the MP in question regarding his silly comments!! See if i get a response!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is it every time the pacers argument comes up, someone always brings up London and the South East? (this time it was in the paper comments) with the new Electrostars / Turbostars / Desiros (i.e. Plastic Crap - the 376s more so... - even though they replaced even older stock than the pacers). Personally I wish they would get rid of at least the pacers and the 150s and replace them with something newer such as those 172s but I doubt that would happen any time soon!

Tell you what. Get your lines up there electrified, and i'll swap the 375s on my local line for your pacers. Deal? Hey, chuck in some 150s as well if you want!!

 

[atomicdanny]

Erm... I live in Canterbury.... so have the same 375s as you! I wasn't saying that the south had it better just mentioning that someone always mentions the "southern" new trains and that the south always gets the new trains in a pacer thread... (which always happens!)

PS - I think that you must have misread what I said because all I said was the same old argument always comes up with any pacer thread! (also I called the 375s plastic crap which means I can't stand them :P)

 

[junglejames]

Erm... I live in Canterbury.... so have the same 375s as you! I wasn't saying that the south had it better just mentioning that someone always mentions the "southern" new trains and that the south always gets the new trains in a pacer thread...

Woops, never noticed where you were from!
No we dont have it better, we have it worse. We got rid of our slam doors, whilst they kept the pacers up North. I say we do have it worse, and thats me being serious!

 

[BestWestern]

Woops, never noticed where you were from!
No we dont have it better, we have it worse. We got rid of our slam doors, whilst they kept the pacers up North. I say we do have it worse, and thats me being serious!

It's true that the comment is invariably made that the south east, and particularly London, gets 'all the new trains', whenever new/old rolling stock is discussed. But it's worth remembering that the main reason behind the vast influx of new electric stock in the region over the past decade was because prior to this huge swathes of southern England were being served by slam door units, which were then outlawed. Whilst the Pacers and earlier Sprinters might be showing their vintage nowadays, they were a generation newer than our Slammers. They, in turn, replaced northern England stock older than the Slammers. It's just a case of life cycles. Would northern passengers have preferred a fleet of Slammers to their newer Pacer/Sprinter units ten years ago?! I think not. The north will see it's ageing diesel fleets replaced long before the southern Electrostar units (now a decade old don't forget) go, and so eventually reversing the current situation, and so on. It's also worth bearing in mind that a considerable proportion of London's local and commuter services are operated by vast fleets of Class 455/456/319 and similar units, which are of the same ilk as 150's. Think of Bristol; one of the biggest economies outside London and not a million miles away, and most certainly not up north. It has a commuter fleet consisting of 143's, 150's, 153's and 158's. No shiny new trains here, and none planned any time soon. The latest arrivals, fresh out of the paintshop, are 150/1's!

So you see, it's not so incredibly biased and unfair after all. Sometimes you'd be forgiven for thinking that whenever a Pendo or 225 got half way up the country it turned round and came back south, and all the 'Northerners' were put on MK2's with a 47/86 on the front!!

 

[WatcherZero]

The arguments more about southern stock from the 90's like the Turbostar and Networkers being replaced when they were only a decade old.

 

[Yew]

It's true that the comment is invariably made that the south east, and particularly London, gets 'all the new trains', whenever new/old rolling stock is discussed. But it's worth remembering that the main reason behind the vast influx of new electric stock in the region over the past decade was because prior to this huge swathes of southern England were being served by slam door units, which were then outlawed. Whilst the Pacers and earlier Sprinters might be showing their vintage nowadays, they were a generation newer than our Slammers. They, in turn, replaced northern England stock older than the Slammers. It's just a case of life cycles. Would northern passengers have preferred a fleet of Slammers to their newer Pacer/Sprinter units ten years ago?! I think not. The north will see it's ageing diesel fleets replaced long before the southern Electrostar units (now a decade old don't forget) go, and so eventually reversing the current situation, and so on. It's also worth bearing in mind that a considerable proportion of London's local and commuter services are operated by vast fleets of Class 455/456/319 and similar units, which are of the same ilk as 150's. Think of Bristol; one of the biggest economies outside London and not a million miles away, and most certainly not up north. It has a commuter fleet consisting of 143's, 150's, 153's and 158's. No shiny new trains here, and none planned any time soon. The latest arrivals, fresh out of the paintshop, are 150/1's!

So you see, it's not so incredibly biased and unfair after all. Sometimes you'd be forgiven for thinking that whenever a Pendo or 225 got half way up the country it turned round and came back south, and all the 'Northerners' were put on MK2's with a 47/86 on the front!!

Sorry to quote the whole post. But with a good Refurb, a 15X is as good as any modern DMU, look at EMT's 158 fleet, I would take one of those over a 170 any day! Okay, the 153/6 fleet have just had a bit of a stop gap refurb by EMT, and I doubt it will be more than 5-8 years before they get a Full refurb (soundproofing, electric doors, totally new seats that kind of thing) ( I would place them before the 158's HST's and Meridians from EMT in terms of need)

However It doesnt matter what you do with a Pacer, They where cheaply made, and short of new engines and bogeys, no amount of refurbishment will make them as good as a sprinter.

The government buys new stock, the government is based in london. Guess where will get new trains? Im okay with that though, as the London '150ish' units can be refurbished to a good standard, letting some DMU's that are operating under wires onto pacer routes, that can also be refurbished.


I think somwhere I have got lost in this post, what im trying to say is that a 150 is based on the Mk3 coach, a good base that can be given new engines, new seating, and new interiors. However a pacer is based on a bus. And you cna tpolish a turd.

 

[Nym]

If the 150s where stripped back and re-engined there is a good 15 or 20 years left in them yet, basically until the bodyshell is rotten...

 

[junglejames]

It's true that the comment is invariably made that the south east, and particularly London, gets 'all the new trains', whenever new/old rolling stock is discussed. But it's worth remembering that the main reason behind the vast influx of new electric stock in the region over the past decade was because prior to this huge swathes of southern England were being served by slam door units, which were then outlawed. Whilst the Pacers and earlier Sprinters might be showing their vintage nowadays, they were a generation newer than our Slammers. They, in turn, replaced northern England stock older than the Slammers. It's just a case of life cycles. Would northern passengers have preferred a fleet of Slammers to their newer Pacer/Sprinter units ten years ago?! I think not. The north will see it's ageing diesel fleets replaced long before the southern Electrostar units (now a decade old don't forget) go, and so eventually reversing the current situation, and so on. It's also worth bearing in mind that a considerable proportion of London's local and commuter services are operated by vast fleets of Class 455/456/319 and similar units, which are of the same ilk as 150's. Think of Bristol; one of the biggest economies outside London and not a million miles away, and most certainly not up north. It has a commuter fleet consisting of 143's, 150's, 153's and 158's. No shiny new trains here, and none planned any time soon. The latest arrivals, fresh out of the paintshop, are 150/1's!

So you see, it's not so incredibly biased and unfair after all. Sometimes you'd be forgiven for thinking that whenever a Pendo or 225 got half way up the country it turned round and came back south, and all the 'Northerners' were put on MK2's with a 47/86 on the front!!

Wait a minute. Are you assuming that i said the Northerners had it worse? No, i said us Southerners had it worse. We got rid of our quality slamdoors, and have to put up with 375s.
I reckon we have it worse down here. Id rather a pacer or sprinter turned up into my local station, and not a 375.
Yep, reading your post all through, you definitely have me wrong. I was complaining that the North has it better than the South. Unfortunately our pacer friends here wont let me bring any down to Kent!!

Hey, thats an idea with the pendys though. Turn them round when they get to Watford Junc (afterall, anywhere north of there is up north right?!!!!), and send 87s and Mk2s up from Watford to Brum, Pool, Manc land and Glasgow!! Oh boy, youd never keep me off the WCML! Wouldnt touch Euston, but id be going up and down between Watford and Glasgow everyday!!

 

[WelshBluebird]

As much as I dislike them, the pacers aren't that awful once they have had a facelift and proper seats put in.
The worst ones are down in Devon where they still have the old bench style seats.

 

[junglejames]

Sorry to quote the whole post. But with a good Refurb, a 15X is as good as any modern DMU, look at EMT's 158 fleet, I would take one of those over a 170 any day! Okay, the 153/6 fleet have just had a bit of a stop gap refurb by EMT, and I doubt it will be more than 5-8 years before they get a Full refurb (soundproofing, electric doors, totally new seats that kind of thing) ( I would place them before the 158's HST's and Meridians from EMT in terms of need)

However It doesnt matter what you do with a Pacer, They where cheaply made, and short of new engines and bogeys, no amount of refurbishment will make them as good as a sprinter.

The government buys new stock, the government is based in london. Guess where will get new trains? Im okay with that though, as the London '150ish' units can be refurbished to a good standard, letting some DMU's that are operating under wires onto pacer routes, that can also be refurbished.


I think somwhere I have got lost in this post, what im trying to say is that a 150 is based on the Mk3 coach, a good base that can be given new engines, new seating, and new interiors. However a pacer is based on a bus. And you cna tpolish a turd.

Watch out. The pacer boys will be after you!!
I think your all too harsh on the pacers. Fantastic trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As much as I dislike them, the pacers aren't that awful once they have had a facelift and proper seats put in.
The worst ones are down in Devon where they still have the old bench style seats.

Nooo, they are comfy!!!

 

[sprinterguy]

Wait a minute. Are you assuming that i said the Northerners had it worse? No, i said us Southerners had it worse. We got rid of our quality slamdoors, and have to put up with 375s.
I reckon we have it worse down here. Id rather a pacer or sprinter turned up into my local station, and not a 375.
Yep, reading your post all through, you definitely have me wrong. I was complaining that the North has it better than the South. Unfortunately our pacer friends here wont let me bring any down to Kent!!

I don’t think you’d be happy with a two carriage Pacer or Sprinter attempting to cope with the loadings that are usually handled by four, eight and twelve carriage 375 formations, unless sixteen carriage Pacer lash-ups are what you are suggesting, which wouldn’t make for very many train services across the South East…

 

[junglejames]

I don’t think you’d be happy with a two carriage Pacer or Sprinter attempting to cope with the loadings that are usually handled by four, eight and twelve carriage 375 formations, unless sixteen carriage Pacer lash-ups are what you are suggesting, which wouldn’t make for very many train services across the South East…

Well i obviously wasnt suggesting just a 2 car pacer/ sprinter! :roll:
Id just take their pacers/ sprinters off of them up North, and replace them with the same number of 375 coaches!!! Once they have electrification up there.
A 16 car pacer would be brilliant fun. Wheres all the pacer people on here, are they up for a Dover to Charing Cross 16 car pacer run?!!!!

Oh and before you all go on, yes i know it will never happen, yes i know pacers are slower, and yes i know 99.9999999% of people in the south would hate the idea. Im just talking about my selfish wants here!!!

 

[Oswyntail]

It's true that the comment is invariably made that the south east, and particularly London, gets 'all the new trains', whenever new/old rolling stock is discussed. ...

While I agree with the point that it is all down to "life cycles", I also believe that there are a couple of relevant points you don't consider:-
1) The numbers involved. The fleets in use in the South East are vast, and the replacement programmes are vast too. There doesn't seem to be the "we will let you have 75% of what you ask for" that applies to the rest of the country (I have said before that I don't think it is a North/South thing, so much as a distance from London thing, which is why I agree that Bristol and the West also lose out). There is overcrowding everywhere, but it does seem to be less of a problem in the South East in my experience. This is exacerbated by the idea that Northern is a "no growth" franchise.
2) The quality of stock is vastly different. There is no equivalent of the Pacer in the South East; the most "spartan" of the fleets - the 455/317/319 families - are more comfortably equipped than their equivalent 150/155/156 fleets; our prime "top end" stock - the 185s - are not up to the same standards as the 350/450; and there is no equivalent of the 444/442. Of course this is subjective. But I have travelled regularly on both fleets, and (333s excepted, of course) the SE stock is better at every level.

 

[bladesman123]

Sometimes you'd be forgiven for thinking that whenever a Pendo or 225 got half way up the country it turned round and came back south, and all the 'Northerners' were put on MK2's with a 47/86 on the front!!

If only :grin:

 

[sprinterguy]

Well i obviously wasnt suggesting just a 2 car pacer/ sprinter! :roll:
Id just take their pacers/ sprinters off of them up North, and replace them with the same number of 375 coaches!!! Once they have electrification up there.
A 16 car pacer would be brilliant fun. Wheres all the pacer people on here, are they up for a Dover to Charing Cross 16 car pacer run?!!!!

Oh and before you all go on, yes i know it will never happen, yes i know pacers are slower, and yes i know 99.9999999% of people in the south would hate the idea. Im just talking about my selfish wants here!!!

Fair enough, I’ll strike you a deal: I’ll take the thirty class 375/8s for the North West electrification, and you can have the ninety(ish) 142s in exchange (I recognise that Northern don’t have control over all the 142s, with ATW having a sizeable number as well). Then you’ve got a tripled up Pacer formation (six carriages) for every four carriage 375 you’ve lost. Enjoy!

Or to give the North the fairer deal, you take the ninety(ish) 142s in exchange for all 97 of the 375s, with electrification for the North west and the Valley lines to make use of them...Similar number of units, but a very different number of carriages and seats...

 

[tempests1]

Should we petition our my's for no new rolling stock for london, until the pacers are replaced? heck, give the old LU stock to northern, and have it hauled by locos.

The dangerous argument is only to try and make the govenrment listen, becuase overercrowding can be said for pretty much all lines into london. iot would be nice to see ther LARGEST TOC, with the OLDEST FLEET, get NEW trains. Not cast offs from LO, and other TOC's

To pick up on a point, I assume you are talking about the latest LUL S Stock that is replacing the A60 Stock, the stock that was originally built in the early 60's. I believe the passengers deserve the new stock as the old has been running for the best part of fifty years so based on the same formula a Pacer could be running around in 2037! While the Southern commuters were sat on their EPB/VEP/CIG/CEP stock other parts of the country were receiving their shiny new Pacers/Sprinters/158's etc. The former Southern region does boast 1938 ex underground stock on the IOW!

 

[DarloRich]

Why is it every time the pacers argument comes up, someone always brings up London and the South East? (this time it was in the paper comments) with the new Electrostars / Turbostars / Desiros (i.e. Plastic Crap - the 376s more so... - even though they replaced even older stock than the pacers). Personally I wish they would get rid of at least the pacers and the 150s and replace them with something newer such as those 172s but I doubt that would happen any time soon!

To highlight the fact that the SE gets new gear while the North gets old 15th hand crap the south doesnt want or is deemed not suitable for southern commuters. (yet it is ok for Northern commuters!)

IF a 142 turned up on my local line there would be a riot. This is despite it being perfect for Pacers, rural, slow, not that busy (other than peak times) However it feeds into Euston and St Pancras services at either end and is in the south. Result = 153/150 service

There is nothing wrong with a 150 when all you have known is a pacer. Lets do a swap, LM 150/153 for Northerns Pacers!

Where are the new 170 units for Northern? Where are the new 350 type units for Northern?