Arriva S&E buses and coffee cups with lids

[bengley]

I boarded the late running 07:41 bus from Chesham Broadway to Hemel Hempstead this morning holding a cup of coffee which had a lid on it. I showed the driver my ticket, and he said 'no drink'. His accent was quite strong (polish I think) and I didn't hear what he said at first, so asked him what he said, and sure enough he said the same two words again. I pointed out to him that it had a lid on it and that I wouldn't spill it.

He wouldn't back down, so I asked him where on his bus it said I can't have a cup of coffee. He looked down at his cab door, but there was nothing pointing this out, in fact I looked around the whole entrance of the bus and there was no mention of any rules/regulations to follow while on the bus.

I asked him again to point out where the rules poster was, but he continued to say 'no drink'. I was starting to wonder if he could speak any English at all - he only said two other words during this whole thing and they were 'coffee shop'. He pointed over the road to Caffe Nero, as if to say I should drink it over there. I told him I'd be late for work if I did this, and refused to get off the bus or throw my coffee away.

I then told him I'd phone up Arriva there and then and ask them what their rules are on carrying closed cups of coffee on their buses. I tried, however their lines were closed.

As the bus was now running about 15 minutes late, passengers were calling out to the driver asking him him what he was playing at, I explained to them the situation and they were sympathetic with me, however one guy was in a hurry and asked me to ditch the coffee. I told the driver I'd hold it for the duration of my journey without drinking it, but he wouldn't move the bus until either me of my coffee got off (he had switched the engine off at this point).

I told him I would be complaining about his poor attitude and that I would throw my coffee away for the sake of the other passengers on the bus.

I put it on the pavement and he turned the engine on and continued his journey 20 minutes late.

I do understand it's the drivers' discretion regarding what can or cannot be carried on his bus, however I think this was very unreasonable of the driver.

I later checked the Arriva website and sure enough, in their conditions of carriage it says 'Passengers may not consume any type of alcohol or items of food or drink which may make other passengers’ journeys unpleasant or otherwise cause offence'

The four passengers didn't seem offended or uncomfortable by me having coffee on the bus, so I don't think it fits into this category.


I'd really just like to know where I stand and what will happen if I bother complaining to Arriva.

Cheers

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, around my way all of the buses have signs saying that no food or drink is allowed so I'd tend to assume that that was the case in most places.

Just one of the reasons why the bus can't even begin to compete with rail as a medium distance mode of transport I'm afraid.

 

[causton]

They will reply 'We will investigate with the driver' and either:

a) tell the driver, who will not care, they will not do anything
or b) not even say anything and move on to the next email/call they receive

...probably. That's my experience with Hemel Hempstead garage Arriva service anyways :P

 

[mumrar]

When you say 'a lid' do you mean a standard coffee shop lid, or a water tight affair, being as you assured the driver it could not spill?

In your shoes, I would probably have just ditched the coffee.

As regards posters/signs, there are many things you cannot do on one of my trains which are not displayed on a poster. If you do so, or try to after being told you cannot, you'd get trouble from me as well, regardless of however many other people travelling may agree with you. It's quite confrontational to demand to see where something is prohibited, I'm sure under the terms of your ticket you're obliged to comply with any reasonable requests from a member of staff.

Seeing as you mention his speech more than once, would you have had such an attitude if you'd been asked "I'm sorry sir, but it isn't permitted for you to consume your drink on this bus?" in a more native dialect?

 

[bengley]

When you say 'a lid' do you mean a standard coffee shop lid, or a water tight affair, being as you assured the driver it could not spill?

In your shoes, I would probably have just ditched the coffee.

As regards posters/signs, there are many things you cannot do on one of my trains which are not displayed on a poster. If you do so, or try to after being told you cannot, you'd get trouble from me as well, regardless of however many other people travelling may agree with you. It's quite confrontational to demand to see where something is prohibited, I'm sure under the terms of your ticket you're obliged to comply with any reasonable requests from a member of staff.

Seeing as you mention his speech more than once, would you have had such an attitude if you'd been asked "I'm sorry sir, but it isn't permitted for you to consume your drink on this bus?" in a more native dialect?

Yes, if the driver had explained and been polite, although I wouldn't have been happy, I would have complied.

It wouldn't have spilled - I'd have had it up to my lips drinking it, and it was already nearly half empty. I'm not an idiot and I can quite easily not spill a cup of coffee.

 

[mumrar]

Yes, if the driver had explained and been polite, although I wouldn't have been happy, I would have complied.

So, are you saying you didn't understand the phrase 'No Drink'? Or did you understand and take an attitude just because he couldn't articulate it very well?

 

[bengley]

So, are you saying you didn't understand the phrase 'No Drink'? Or did you understand and take an attitude just because he couldn't articulate it very well?

He didn't even make any effort to apologise, I don't care if he can't speak much english, I'm not racist, but surely sorry is a vital word to learn if you're in a public facing role?

I know if I didn't say sorry in Maplin when we didn't have what a customer wanted, the customer would not be impressed. According to my manager/mystery shopper results my customer service is almost perfect, it's not difficult to just be nice to someone.

Just sent an email to a competing service (Tiger Line buses).

Hi,

Just a quick question.

This morning I travelled with Arriva from Chesham to Hemel Hempstead. Apart from their buses and service being crap, I was also not allowed to carry a covered cup of coffee onto their bus service. As a season ticket holding customer I was extremely unimpressed with the drivers’ attitude, and am strongly considering moving to another operator.

As your service is faster and has better buses I was wondering if I were to get a refund from Arriva and buy a season ticket from you, would I be allowed to carry coffee in the morning on my journey? I ask because having to pour £2.40 down the drain (literally) every day will get rather expensive and as a result I’ll be tired at work and will probably get sacked for falling asleep.

Thanks!

Ben.

I'll let you know what they say.

 

[142094]

Easiest thing to do is cover up the cup somehow and sneak it onto the bus. Do this all the time and most drivers don't care.

 

[SS4]

I'm more surprised it was enforced, most of the buses (TWM) say no food or drink but it's never enforced.

More to the point I would be more concerned as what their attitude is regarding water or other soft drinks, especially in the poor weather commonly found in summer

 

[142094]

I've seen someone refused access to a First bus in York with what looked like a soft drink cardboard cup - only for the conductor to be shown what was inside - jelly sweets from the cinema.

 

[WestCoast]

I find bus drivers tend to make up rules when they feel like it. I find that that they will pick on YOU for doing something very small but when it comes the real trouble makers (smokers, vandals e.t.c) they do nothing.

 

[Ivo]

Arriva policy regarding food and drink is as follows:

Consumption of alcohol and hot food is not permitted on Arriva bus services. In line with railway byelaws, consumption of alcohol is also not permitted on certain stretches of railway line.

[not an exact quote, but correct meaning]

That's it. There is no reason as to why you cannot carry tea/coffee on buses. I once was refused travel because I had a KFC meal with me; since then, I have never ad that problem, and why? Two reasons: (1) Having an extra bag always helps; (2) I insist on the exact wording of the rule, i.e. "no consumption", as opposed to "no carriage".

Essentially the driver was completely unreasonable, but this is not to be unexpected. If you get a negative response I would suggest boarding another ASE service and taking a picture of the internal "leaflets" demonstrating the above (usually situated on the side of the partition between cab and passenger space), and forwarding this to Bus Users UK.

P.S.: And people wonder why I don't like Arriva.

 

[flymo]

To quote the Arrivabus Conditions of Carriage:

refrain from eating and drinking items which make other passenger’s
journey unpleasant or otherwise cause offence

So it doesn't say you can't carry it on board or you can't consume it on board, only if it may cause offence would there apparently be a problem but how that is decided is anyone's guess.

 

[Clip]

Yes, if the driver had explained and been polite, although I wouldn't have been happy, I would have complied.

It wouldn't have spilled - I'd have had it up to my lips drinking it, and it was already nearly half empty. I'm not an idiot and I can quite easily not spill a cup of coffee.

Unless it goes over a pothole and you lose your grip and the drink then falls and the drink goes everywhere..

 

[bengley]

Unless it goes over a pothole and you lose your grip and the drink then falls and the drink goes everywhere..

I think in that case it's more likely to go all over me.

I got a response to my email I sent to tiger line yesterday.

Dear Ben,

Thank you for your message to Roary regarding Tiger Line bus services in your area.

I very much appreciate your feedback and I'm very pleased to read that you are so enthusiastic about our buses. We would have no issue with you bringing coffee on the bus, but would request that the cup has a lid.

Kind regards

Michael

So today I bought a season ticket with Tiger Line and am in the process of getting a refund from Arriva.

 

[Darandio]

I guess its a result, although find it a bit of a nonsense that it had to play out how it did.

Must ask though, I notice the Tiger service is faster and with better buses. Are you now paying a premium for this service, or did it work out cheaper than Arriva anyway?

 

[CrackBerry]

I have had the same argument with bus drivers in the past. My retort was always that I also have a penis but it doesn't mean I am going to either urinate or procreate on the bus.

 

[Ivo]

Unless it goes over a pothole and you lose your grip and the drink then falls and the drink goes everywhere..

I've managed this on an LM 350 before now; the cardboard thing you hold the cup with quite literally melted! I thus dropped the cup all over my sleeping bag (which I was taking on holiday), and almost got some on a guy next to me in the vestibule (it was very busy ). He just thought it was funny

 

[Flying Snail]

He wouldn't back down, so I asked him where on his bus it said I can't have a cup of coffee. He looked down at his cab door, but there was nothing pointing this out, in fact I looked around the whole entrance of the bus and there was no mention of any rules/regulations to follow while on the bus.

So that means you are allowed do anything that has not explicitly been forbidden in writing within 10 feet of where you happen to be standing?

There is no requirement to post such things on the bus, you accept the terms and conditions when you buy a ticket. Just like any other contract if you do not like the terms you are free not to use the product.

I put it on the pavement and he turned the engine on and continued his journey 20 minutes late.

What is the fine for littering in your area?

I do understand it's the drivers' discretion regarding what can or cannot be carried on his bus, however I think this was very unreasonable of the driver.

Seeing as you proceeded to argue and hold up the service you obviously did not understand that it is at the driver's duscretion.

The four passengers didn't seem offended or uncomfortable by me having coffee on the bus, so I don't think it fits into this category.

No, people don't generally get offended by others drinking coffee. What does offend people is having to clear rubbish from seats in order to sit down, walking on dirty sticky floors and getting their clothing soiled from sitting on seats that have had drinks spilled on.

It wouldn't have spilled - I'd have had it up to my lips drinking it, and it was already nearly half empty. I'm not an idiot and I can quite easily not spill a cup of coffee.

Unfortunately a great deal of people are incapable of consuming such items without spilling them or littering, perhaps you are not one of them but until there is some easy method of distinguishing yourself from that group I agree with the driver's stance.

In fact not only do I agree with it I also regularly stop people bringing hot drinks and food onto my bus and for very good reasons.

I think in that case it's more likely to go all over me.

And the bus floor and seats for which no doubt you carry a cleaning kit which you will immediately put to use cleaning up your mess.

And what if you spill scalding hot coffee onto someone sitting next to you? Do you have public liability insurance to cover material damage and personal injury?

 

[bengley]

I guess its a result, although find it a bit of a nonsense that it had to play out how it did.

Must ask though, I notice the Tiger service is faster and with better buses. Are you now paying a premium for this service, or did it work out cheaper than Arriva anyway?

£4 cheaper than Arriva, however Tiger Line has no sunday service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So that means you are allowed do anything that has not explicitly been forbidden in writing within 10 feet of where you happen to be standing?

There is no requirement to post such things on the bus, you accept the terms and conditions when you buy a ticket. Just like any other contract if you do not like the terms you are free not to use the product.



What is the fine for littering in your area?



Seeing as you proceeded to argue and hold up the service you obviously did not understand that it is at the driver's duscretion.




No, people don't generally get offended by others drinking coffee. What does offend people is having to clear rubbish from seats in order to sit down, walking on dirty sticky floors and getting their clothing soiled from sitting on seats that have had drinks spilled on.



Unfortunately a great deal of people are incapable of consuming such items without spilling them or littering, perhaps you are not one of them but until there is some easy method of distinguishing yourself from that group I agree with the driver's stance.

In fact not only do I agree with it I also regularly stop people bringing hot drinks and food onto my bus and for very good reasons.



And the bus floor and seats for which no doubt you carry a cleaning kit which you will immediately put to use cleaning up your mess.

And what if you spill scalding hot coffee onto someone sitting next to you? Do you have public liability insurance to cover material damage and personal injury?

I'm pretty sure the driver is meant to be reasonable about it, you're obviously not a very reasonable bus driver!

I travelled with a coffee on tiger line today and the driver had no problem. I didn't leave any mess on the bus, nor did I spill any coffee on myself, the bus, other passengers or the driver. I had my coffee, everyone was happy. What's the problem here?

 

[142094]

The bus companies argue that some people make a mess due to spilling coffee etc. However a much bigger mess is left by everyone - dirty footprints and other crap from people's shoes.

Some do themselves no favours when there are bins that don't lock properly and leave used tickets all over the floor. Then again I've seen bus drivers chucking their ticket machine test printouts on the floor as well.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Arriva in this area definately have no stickers/posters about it, except from 'Be Considerate'

Stagecoach on the other hand have small stickers next to the door with a striking line, crossing out the Food, drink & smoking symbols separately.

 

[Flying Snail]

I'm pretty sure the driver is meant to be reasonable about it, you're obviously not a very reasonable bus driver!

And by reasonable you mean letting you do whatever you want, in that case no I am not reasonable.

Nor am I reasonable with people who play music through their mobiles or leaky headphones at high volume, yak loudly on their phone for extended periods or use the speakerphone or anything else that will create an unpleasant trip for the majority of passengers and myself.

I travelled with a coffee on tiger line today and the driver had no problem. I didn't leave any mess on the bus, nor did I spill any coffee on myself, the bus, other passengers or the driver. I had my coffee, everyone was happy. What's the problem here?

The problem is that a high % do not take their rubbish with them (and I'll bet you do not want to sit on a bus covered in other peoples junk) and it only takes one spill out of the thousands of trips that driver makes a year to stain a seat or scald another passenger.

The bus companies argue that some people make a mess due to spilling coffee etc. However a much bigger mess is left by everyone - dirty footprints and other crap from people's shoes.

Dirt from shoes is unavoidable and it is generally confined to the floors, spilt drinks on fabric seats stain and if they are milky will smell rotten after a day or two.

Some do themselves no favours when there are bins that don't lock properly and leave used tickets all over the floor. Then again I've seen bus drivers chucking their ticket machine test printouts on the floor as well.

Agreed and I have a big problem with the minority of my colleagues who leave a mess behind them for someone else (me) to clean up but one ignorant person is not an excuse for anyone else.

 

[Eng274]

Lothian enforce their strict no open food/drink policy about 80% of the time from what I've seen. After a few jars I've often used a bus late at night with a fully wrapped closed takeaway under my arm and reassured the driver I wouldn't eat it en route, and I've never had any bother with taking stuff on.

The sign on the front of the cab door very clearly highlights that takeaway drinks in paper cups and fast food junk are not permitted, doesn't stop some nitwits from trying though, and huffing and puffing when they leave their rip-off coffee sitting on the pavement.

First on the other hand, don't seem to care either way. If there is a rule they don't enforce it consistently, if at all. There is a pattern; Lothian's fleet are generally tidy save for a few Metros, whereas First should rename themselves "Biffa" for the amount of crap on the floor/seats.

One of the wonderful Haddington natives sat opposite me, picked all the L and T out of his BLT sandwich (words really fail me..) and dumped it on the floor!

As a T&Cs-abiding commuter, I generally would side with the driver on this one, even if his English was shocking. Buses jolting around on awful roads makes it more likely to spill a coffee, and it could also be to cover their own exhaust pipe against accidental burn injury claims by banned Chelsea Tractorists using the bus for the first time in their life.

 

[90019]

First on the other hand, don't seem to care either way. If there is a rule they don't enforce it consistently, if at all. There is a pattern; Lothian's fleet are generally tidy save for a few Metros, whereas First should rename themselves "Biffa" for the amount of crap on the floor/seats.

That's because Lothian wash, wax and clean inside every bus every day
I find that quite a few of the drivers will go round the bus and pick up Metros lying around whilst waiting at the terminus, which is nice.

 

[Eng274]

That's because Lothian wash, wax and clean inside every bus every day
I find that quite a few of the drivers will go round the bus and pick up Metros lying around whilst waiting at the terminus, which is nice.

Aye I've noticed that too, a modest effort but it makes a huge difference also shows that the drivers actually care about how their bus is presented.

Even the near-eldest (~9.5yrs old) 'deckers that haven't had any kind of refurb in their life, look respectable inside.

 

[cainebj]

If the driver rejects travel due to a passenger carrying a cup of coffee with a lid on, he/she must be able to prove that the bus company has a rule where hot drinks cannot be carried. When a passenger purchases a ticket, they are agreeing to the terms and conditions of travel, but the bus driver MUST be able to provide these terms and conditions upon request from the passenger. A passenger cannot be denied travel if the driver is unable to provide the terms of travel stating the cup of coffee cannot be carried.
It is the same in any situation, whether shop or public transport. When you're buying something in a shop, you agree to the Terms of Sale when you hand over your money, or enter your pin number in the chip & pin machine, of which MUST be made freely available to you upon request.
You cannot agree to terms of travel on a bus if the bus driver is unable to provide you with such information!!!

As previously mentioned, some Stagecoach buses have stickers next to the door, or even inside, showing no hot food, no hot drinks, and no smoking. This is also in the terms of travel, of which should be carried by the driver in their work bag, and should be made freely available to the passenger upon request. The reason for Stagecoach not allowing hot drinks to be carried is because they do not hold valid insurance for damages caused by hot drinks.
The Arriva terms of travel do not state that hot drinks may not be carried, so therefore could be assumed that Arriva do hold valid insurance in which passengers can carry hot drinks. Coach operators who have operational hot drinks machines on board are also required to have such insurance.

As for the cup of coffee maybe being spilled, how is a milky cup of coffee different from a cold milkshake, of which would be permitted? It still contains milk doesn't it? Is pepsi less sticky than coffee when spilled and dried out a little? Is an empty cup of coffee causing more litter than an empty bottle of water, or a Kit Kat wrapper?
Passengers, with most bus operators, can legally carry a tin of paint on a bus with them, providing the passenger holds it at all times. Are paint fumes less dangerous than a hot cup of coffee? Surely if the bus had to stop in an emergency, or was in an accident, the paint would end up on the floor, the lid popping off, with the paint ending up everywhere. Surely that would cause more damage than coffee?

 

[causton]

...Arriva S&E have signs saying you're not allowed to carry tins of paint on their buses.

A Uno driver asked me to finish my hot drink before I boarded a bus and I said 'wait here a second while I finish it then' ... he told me to 'hurry up and get on then'. Uno don't seem to have any fixed strict rules about anything though!

 

[BrummyBoy]

I'm more surprised it was enforced, most of the buses (TWM) say no food or drink but it's never enforced.

Agreed, i have never once been stopped for eating/drinking on a TWM bus and have only seen it happen to one person before (who decided to unfortunatley throw his chicken bone at the driver)

 

[jon0844]

A Uno driver asked me to finish my hot drink before I boarded a bus and I said 'wait here a second while I finish it then' ... he told me to 'hurry up and get on then'. Uno don't seem to have any fixed strict rules about anything though!

I don't regard them as a proper bus company, having seen drivers swearing and swerving at motorists while driving, speeding excessively, writing a letter to me to say it's okay to leave early if the driver cannot see anyone waiting or approaching a bus stop (in practice, at night they'll run up to 5 minutes early or skip stops completely, by taking shortcuts, so how they can tell if someone is going to want a bus I do not know) and much more besides.

I even witnessed a Uno driver get out and start kicking the back of an Arriva bus at Hatfield station because it was holding her up (and only because the bus itself was held up by taxis blocking the Arriva bus in).

But, they did let me on with a takeaway (which was bagged up)!

God knows how Uno keep winning the franchises around here. The quicker they're fitted with GPS to provide realtime running information, which in turn will allow HCC to monitor them and see where their subsidies are being wasted, the better. Why should the county council pay to run late night buses that don't want to pick anyone up?