Arriva Redcar depot - closure threat

[JGurney]

Arriva have published a proposal to close their Dormanstown (Redcar) bus depot.

See: BBC News - Redcar's Arriva bus depot at risk of closure 'devastating'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy24kyrzvko?app-referrer=deep-link

A bus depot is at risk of being permanently shut with a potential for a "limited number" of job losses.

Talks are under way to close Arriva's depot, in Dormanstown, Redcar, with plans to transfer most employees to alternative sites, the company said.

The bus company said the proposal was part of efforts to "operate as efficiently and effectively as possible across the region", adding customers would not experience disruption to services.

A spokesperson said: "While the proposal may result in a limited number of job losses, our priority is to minimise any impact on colleagues and provide support throughout the process.

"The majority of affected colleagues would transfer to alternative depots, and we are committed to supporting all employees fully during this period."

[Edit- thanks, "a moderator", I got the note to tidy this but see you have already done it].

 

[overthewater]

Just to ask how many buses and routes are based in this depot?

 

[Ballyheigue]

Arriva have published a proposal to close their Dormanstown (Redcar) bus depot.

See: BBC News - Redcar's Arriva bus depot at risk of closure 'devastating'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy24kyrzvko?app-referrer=deep-link

"A bus depot is at risk of being permanently shut with a potential for a "limited number" of job losses.

Talks are under way to close Arriva's depot, in Dormanstown, Redcar, with plans to transfer most employees to alternative sites, the company said.

Leader of Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council Alec Brown said the news was "devastating information", while Labour MP Anna Turley said travel to other sites in Stockton or Whitby "simply isn't realistic".

The bus company said the proposal was part of efforts to "operate as efficiently and effectively as possible across the region", adding customers would not experience disruption to services."

Someone needs to tell Anna that people travel miles to and from work each day for early starts, late finishes etc and you don't see them moaning! Unrealistic my backside, devastating information my backside, all drivers will still have a job, they've just got to travel a few miles further up or down the road, set of 30 minutes earlier, arrive home 30 minutes later. That's hardly devastating or unrealistic unless you care for someone and have to give medication at set times in which case I'm sure Arriva will be happy to come to some kind of agreement to adjust hours.

 

[stevieinselby]

Leader of Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council Alec Brown said the news was "devastating information", while Labour MP Anna Turley said travel to other sites in Stockton or Whitby "simply isn't realistic".

It does seem to be something of an overreaction. While there may be a small number of job losses, most of the staff will be kept on, so it isn't like they are looking at massive redundancies. And while for any staff who live in Redcar, the extra journey to/from work will be a pain, I'm sure there are other staff who work there who commute in from places like Middlesbrough and Loftus whose journeys will be no worse than they are now and potentially even become shorter and easier.

Just to ask how many buses and routes are based in this depot?

As best I can tell, there are about 60 buses based there, and they run: X2, X3, X4, 28, 62, 63, 64, 65, X93/X94, 95, P1/P2.

 

[Megafuss]

There will be some drivers at Redcar that would have worked previously at Loftus when that was shut down.

Although probably relatively small in number, I'm.not sure they will like to commute to Whitby or Stockton now.

 

[Budge1980]

Are there many examples where a bus company proposes to close a depot but after the consultation change their mind? Is it a "done deal" it will close or could, with the right arguments, the depot survive?

 

[Stan Drews]

Are there many examples where a bus company proposes to close a depot but after the consultation change their mind? Is it a "done deal" it will close or could, with the right arguments, the depot survive?

It isn’t generally that type of consultation. They aren’t looking for a majority decision from the affected staff. You are correct that the decision has already been made, this is the legal consultation period that any employer must go through with staff (and trade unions) when a place of work is being closed. This should start 90 days before the date of closure and will cover how it will impact each employee.

 

[GCH100]

I am suprised that vehicles will be moving to Whitby as Whitby is merely an outstation of Redcar at the moment, so one must assume that either it will become an outstation of Stockton, or it will be built up into a proper garage, which seems a strange thing to do, when closing another depot, how many vehicles could be moving to Whitby, or are we talking just penny numbers and really more or less everything is moving to Stockton. Also closing depots is not sensible at the moment as electrification of buses means more space is required to install chargers, so presumably if everything is crammed in at Stockton this will mean a bigger site will eventually be required there and to charge in an outstation would be somewhat impractical, unless Arriva own the land its based on, so who knows what the solution would be at Whitby.

 

[darloscott]

I am suprised that vehicles will be moving to Whitby as Whitby is merely an outstation of Redcar at the moment, so one must assume that either it will become an outstation of Stockton, or it will be built up into a proper garage, which seems a strange thing to do, when closing another depot, how many vehicles could be moving to Whitby, or are we talking just penny numbers and really more or less everything is moving to Stockton. Also closing depots is not sensible at the moment as electrification of buses means more space is required to install chargers, so presumably if everything is crammed in at Stockton this will mean a bigger site will eventually be required there and to charge in an outstation would be somewhat impractical, unless Arriva own the land its based on, so who knows what the solution would be at Whitby.

Just two X4s are moving to Whitby, with everything else going to Stockton including the summer X94s.

It does seem to be something of an overreaction. While there may be a small number of job losses, most of the staff will be kept on, so it isn't like they are looking at massive redundancies. And while for any staff who live in Redcar, the extra journey to/from work will be a pain, I'm sure there are other staff who work there who commute in from places like Middlesbrough and Loftus whose journeys will be no worse than they are now and potentially even become shorter and easier.

As best I can tell, there are about 60 buses based there, and they run: X2, X3, X4, 28, 62, 63, 64, 65, X93/X94, 95, P1/P2.

The X93, 95 and P1/P2 (& 323) contracts are all ran from Whitby, as well as 3 boards on the X4, the rest is at Redcar and will move to Stockton.

 

[RT4038]

Also closing depots is not sensible at the moment

Sensible for whom? I would presume that Arriva have a good financial reason for wanting to close it? Premises costing too much? Lease coming up for renewal?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sensible for whom? I would presume that Arriva have a good financial reason for wanting to close it? Premises costing too much? Lease coming up for renewal?

Indeed - fact is that with the costs of electrification, there will be depots that will be closed and operations centralised.

Rumours of Redcar closing have been circulating for several years but sad to see it go.

 

[Simon75]

How old is the current garage, looking on Google maps, doesn't look that old?

 

[GCH100]

Indeed - fact is that with the costs of electrification, there will be depots that will be closed and operations centralised.

Rumours of Redcar closing have been circulating for several years but sad to see it go.

Thats unlikely existing premises unless they where oversized in the first place simply don't have enough space to add extra vehicles and charging facilities, while I am sure Arriva have done there sums with Redcar depot, I am sure, that what will happen is like when other towns have lost bus depots the network is simply trimmed back, and this will be the case again no doub't, I doubt it has little to do with the lease as you would simply find an old warehouse in the area and convert it, its presumably simply not viable, running at a loss, and that will have something to do with the town and its industry declining over many years, which is the same with many towns accross the North. However the closure of bus depots seems to have slowed over the last few years, without the openning of any additional large super depots, really the overall estate except for a few circumstances has stayed roughly the same over the last three to four years, hence my point about electrification slowing it down, that said buses are still a declining industry, so the estate needs triming back every now and again.

 

[NorthOxonian]

As best I can tell, there are about 60 buses based there, and they run: X2, X3, X4, 28, 62, 63, 64, 65, X93/X94, 95, P1/P2.

Notably, with the exception of the Whitby based services (P1, P2, 95), these all have one end of the route at Middlesbrough - notably even the 81 (which had been Guisborough - Redcar/Marske) was merged into a Middlesbrough based route recently. From the Stockton depot to Middlesbrough bus station is probably about 10 minutes (pretty much direct either along the A66 or the parallel road) so they probably reckon they can run everything from the Middlesbrough end? Though in the longer term, that could presumably cause changes with last buses towards Redcar being earlier and first buses from Redcar being later, depending on if they make changes to reduce dead running.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thats unlikely existing premises unless they where oversized in the first place simply don't have enough space to add extra vehicles and charging facilities, while I am sure Arriva have done there sums with Redcar depot, I am sure, that what will happen is like when other towns have lost bus depots the network is simply trimmed back, and this will be the case again no doub't, I doubt it has little to do with the lease as you would simply find an old warehouse in the area and convert it, its presumably simply not viable, running at a loss, and that will have something to do with the town and its industry declining over many years, which is the same with many towns accross the North. However the closure of bus depots seems to have slowed over the last few years, without the openning of any additional large super depots, really the overall estate except for a few circumstances has stayed roughly the same over the last three to four years, hence my point about electrification slowing it down, that said buses are still a declining industry, so the estate needs triming back every now and again.

Many depots have spare capacity (as services have declined since 2010) and electrification is making operators look at the long term investment in depots and whether it is worth it. Electrification is simply making operators focus on their estate and those investment decisions.

With Dormanstown, it was built to replace Loftus and Redcar (and a bit of Stokesley) and it’s a reflection of how operations have declined that if can now all be fitted into Stockton.

I do agree that once a depot is closed that it does lead to trimming of routes and operational challenges. All one has to do is look at Bishop Auckland for that

 

[ainsworth74]

How old is the current garage, looking on Google maps, doesn't look that old?

1990s I think, I can remember the old depot in central Redcar very very vaguely as a child (I was intrigued by the massive brushes for the double deckers ). I think it was where the Morrisons is now.

Be a shame to see the depot go, though it'll be interesting to see what impact it has on some evening services. The X2 for instance has it's final service terminate at Dormanstown rather than Middlesbrough as the bus is going back to the depot (Redcar depot is actually in Dormanstown a suburb of Redcar). I believe there are other routes which similarly terminate at Dormanstown in the evening rather than running through to Middlesbrough. Could also have similar implications at the other end of the day as well of course!

 

[GCH100]

1990s I think, I can remember the old depot in central Redcar very very vaguely as a child (I was intrigued by the massive brushes for the double deckers ). I think it was where the Morrisons is now.

Be a shame to see the depot go, though it'll be interesting to see what impact it has on some evening services. The X2 for instance has it's final service terminate at Dormanstown rather than Middlesbrough as the bus is going back to the depot (Redcar depot is actually in Dormanstown a suburb of Redcar). I believe there are other routes which similarly terminate at Dormanstown in the evening rather than running through to Middlesbrough. Could also have similar implications at the other end of the day as well of course!

The original depot in Redcar closed on 09/11/2001, and is now the Morrisons Supermarket as you suggest, it was on Regent Street and had an allocation of 41 vehicles the Dormanstown depot openned on the same day, with an allocation of between 60 and 70 vehicles, Boathouse Lane at Stockton had an allocation of around 80 vehicles in around January 2019, so if there has been a cut in service there, then that will of allowed there. (Info extracted from North East Major Operators Garages by David Domin)

 

[Snex]

Someone needs to tell Anna that people travel miles to and from work each day for early starts, late finishes etc and you don't see them moaning! Unrealistic my backside, devastating information my backside, all drivers will still have a job, they've just got to travel a few miles further up or down the road, set of 30 minutes earlier, arrive home 30 minutes later. That's hardly devastating or unrealistic unless you care for someone and have to give medication at set times in which case I'm sure Arriva will be happy to come to some kind of agreement to adjust hours.

Good thing it all worked well at Chester Le Street and Jesmond then.

They're barking up the wrong tree if they believe everyone is going to be driving 30 minutes to Stockton every day, without any moaning. It's not as if there's not lots of alternatives around with HGV/LGV in the local area. The whole area is pretty much just that type of work.

Not helped that Stockton has been struggling for staff, as it is.

 

[ainsworth74]

The original depot in Redcar closed on 09/11/2001, and is now the Morrisons Supermarket as you suggest, it was on Regent Street and had an allocation of 41 vehicles the Dormanstown depot openned on the same day, with an allocation of between 60 and 70 vehicles, Boathouse Lane at Stockton had an allocation of around 80 vehicles in around January 2019, so if there has been a cut in service there, then that will of allowed there. (Info extracted from North East Major Operators Garages by David Domin)

Aha thanks, a little later than I would have thought but not wildly out of step with my childhood memories

 

[Ballyheigue]

Good thing it all worked well at Chester Le Street and Jesmond then.

They're barking up the wrong tree if they believe everyone is going to be driving 30 minutes to Stockton every day, without any moaning. It's not as if there's not lots of alternatives around with HGV/LGV in the local area. The whole area is pretty much just that type of work.

Not helped that Stockton has been struggling for staff, as it is.

That's alright, plenty of workers to replace them I'm sure. Can't believe some people would jump ship just for the sake of an extra 30 minutes each way though, they'd have a fit if they worked in adult social care with the amount of miles I travel to cover where necessary lol.

 

[Snex]

That's alright, plenty of workers to replace them I'm sure. Can't believe some people would jump ship just for the sake of an extra 30 minutes each way though, they'd have a fit if they worked in adult social care with the amount of miles I travel to cover where necessary lol.

Stockton has sent it's work to other depots in recent times because it's had driver shortages. Ironically one of them being Redcar.

Dont disagree on the 30 minutes though but I'd imagine it's more principal rather than the actual commute.

You have to remember some of these might be coming from places which are already 20 minutes or so if they're ex. Loftus or coming from that direction.

 

[JGurney]

,though it'll be interesting to see what impact it has on some evening services. The X2 for instance has it's final service terminate at Dormanstown rather than Middlesbrough as the bus is going back to the depot .... I believe there are other routes which similarly terminate at Dormanstown in the evening rather than running through to Middlesbrough. Could also have similar implications at the other end of the day as well of course!

The first X3 to Lingdale and the last back start or terminate at Dormanstown.

The first X4 to Whitby starts at Dormanstown and the last two back (the 21:43 and 22:43 from Whitby) terminate there.

 

[mangad]

That's alright, plenty of workers to replace them I'm sure. Can't believe some people would jump ship just for the sake of an extra 30 minutes each way though, they'd have a fit if they worked in adult social care with the amount of miles I travel to cover where necessary lol.

30 minutes each way is an hour out of your day. And how to react to that is entirely dependent on your circumstances. For example, you may already drive for 45 minutes to get to the depot each morning. If you have to do then an extra 30 minutes then it may well tip you from being comfortable with your commute to being uncomfortable with it. Someone may have caring commitments that mean it's not ideal to lose that hour. Another driver may live five minutes from the depot and be able to walk there, and then suddenly they're being asked to drive. Of course some people may have a shorter commute by changing depots. They may struggle to afford the petrol needed for a longer commute. They may have other options on their doorstep and it may flip them into a decision to change roles.

It isn't as simple as saying "for the sake of an extra 30 minutes each way." It's entirely down to the people, their desires, their circumstances. We're talking individuals, not an amorphous blob.

 

[asb]

Also, if you're driving a bus for 8-9 hours a day, driving further in your car is not great

 

[JGurney]

Also, if you're driving a bus for 8-9 hours a day, driving further in your car is not great

It also increases the chances of drivers being unable to reach the depot if the roads are obstructed, or being late due to congestion. E.g. the roads between Redcar and Whitby are occasionally blocked in winter, not so much by snow and ice itself as by the combination of snow and ice plus insufficiently skilled motorists leading to accidents which block the roads.

 

[Whisky Papa]

Also, if you're driving a bus for 8-9 hours a day, driving further in your car is not great

If you even have a car. Around 30 years back, there was a local manager who seemed determined to close Todmorden garage and transfer all work to Halifax, which (at quiet times) is about a 30 minute drive away. Many drivers lived locally, and several, me included, had no car, so this would have been a major upset to us. It would also have meant it was no longer feasible to get home in the middle of split turns, which might already be over 12 hours long, a situation I had earlier been in and hated when working at Bee Line Buzz Company in Stockport in the 1980s (when I did have a car of course, but it had been my choice to take that job 25 miles away).

Other negative factors inherent in this plan were huge amounts of extra dead mileage and the loss of goodwill, not just from the affected Todmorden drivers but also those at Halifax. We had been told once transferred we would not have to work any other Halifax routes, which would have made us a special case that drivers at Halifax would have resented, as they had to cover any route, not just their chosen rostered ones. Also, the fact that supervision and mechanical assistance would have all been much more remote would no doubt have affected the reliability of the network.

 

[Christophe]

Many depots have spare capacity (as services have declined since 2010) and electrification is making operators look at the long term investment in depots and whether it is worth it. Electrification is simply making operators focus on their estate and those investment decisions.

With Dormanstown, it was built to replace Loftus and Redcar (and a bit of Stokesley) and it’s a reflection of how operations have declined that if can now all be fitted into Stockton.

I do agree that once a depot is closed that it does lead to trimming of routes and operational challenges. All one has to do is look at Bishop Auckland for that

There's comment on the North East Buses forum that Arriva have acquired land on Boathouse Lane next to Stockton depot to accomodate everything.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's comment on the North East Buses forum that Arriva have acquired land on Boathouse Lane next to Stockton depot to accomodate everything.

Interesting? I thought they would be just holding onto Boathouse Lane until a developer came along