Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

I would not want to work in an environment where a Union and its supporters was instructing me to be so militant and hostile towards my employer, with threats of being ostracized if I came in to work and accepted that job roles change.

Got it in one there. The role of a Union, and in many industries it's a very important role, is not to be change-averse, but to ensure that change, which in business is always a given, is managed properly so that it doesn't disadvantage its members personally, and to raise things from the staff point of view that may otherwise not have been considered, as well as to defend the members during e.g. disciplinary proceedings.

The role is not to be change-averse and shout down all change, however beneficial it might be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternatively, and more realistic, there will be calls for cost cutting within the most highly subsidised TOC in the country.

At a minimum I could see lightly used lines losing sunday service, or even line closures based on subsidy level.

What would Guards and the RMT think of the following:

"OK, no DOO, but you have to pick 3 branch lines to lop to pay for it"

?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's not sensible, if it gets the trains running, uses the same staff that we have anyway and provides the added benefot of passengers not having to wait in the rain while the guard makes their way down to release the door ?

The only benefit lost is the ability to operate during this un-quantified number of occasions when the rest of the train/infrastructure and crew are available to operate the train but the guard isn't.

And about 10-15 seconds on departure (close local door, buzz buzz, buzz buzz takes about this amount of time). This is insignificant for the Northern Connect services which would be the first to go DOO, but might be significant when you consider something like the CLC stopping services where that could be about 3 minutes on the running time.

I suspect the reason Merseyrail were absolutely not willing to negotiate on guards doing the doors, but were willing to negotiate on OBS or similar, was that this extra time on something as long as a Southport or Chester run was enough to mess up the proposed new diagrams and require an additional unit or two which was unaffordable. After all, simply adding hustle alarms added 2 minutes to Ormskirk-Liverpool running times, as I've posted in this thread before. (It's now had a further 2 minutes added for Maghull North, so now up from 30 to 34).

Edit: actually, correction to that, in the 1985 timetable it was just 28 minutes - that's really quite a slowdown! Of course, back then the doors would be opened while the wheels were still just about turning, and the guard would give 2 on the bell and remain at the open cab door until the train left the platform.

 

[yorksrob]

I understand it might be the way the industry ultimately decides to go, I’m merely stating that it’s not a compomise , it’s capitulation, let’s not pretend otherwise

As a passenger, I don't care. Call it capitulation or compromise, call it what you will. As long as it gets the trains running, that's really all that matters.

 

[yorksrob]

And about 10-15 seconds on departure (close local door, buzz buzz, buzz buzz takes about this amount of time). This is insignificant for the Northern Connect services which would be the first to go DOO, but might be significant when you consider something like the CLC stopping services where that could be about 3 minutes on the running time.

I suspect the reason Merseyrail were absolutely not willing to negotiate on guards doing the doors, but were willing to negotiate on OBS or similar, was that this extra time on something as long as a Southport or Chester run was enough to mess up the proposed new diagrams and require an additional unit or two which was unaffordable. After all, simply adding hustle alarms added 2 minutes to Ormskirk-Liverpool running times, as I've posted in this thread before.

I'm not sure it takes that long, but even if it does, It's not worth the disruption.

 

[LowLevel]

That’s never been acknowledged to my understanding other than Scotrail (face saving excercise) and RMT (pretending they’d compromised) by any senior figures in the industry as a reasonable compromise for DOO, it’s simply preserving traditional guard operation with a very minor tweak

The implication there is that DOO is the only real acceptable method of operation whereas in actual fact guard operation is a perfectly standard method in itself. In actual fact in most places Northern rub shoulders with other operators they will be the only trains that are DOO. I'm sure the passengers (and staff) that for the sake of a paper exercise are served by Northern rather than TPE, TfW, EMT etc would be delighted to work that out.

 

[Carlisle]

The implication there is that DOO is the only real acceptable method of operation whereas in actual fact guard operation is a perfectly standard method in itself. In actual fact in most places Northern rub shoulders with other operators they will be the only trains that are DOO. I'm sure the passengers (and staff) that for the sake of a paper exercise are served by Northern rather than TPE, TfW, EMT etc would be delighted to work that out.

All the industry needs to get together rather than unions merely subscribing to this individual scaremongering, purely to advance their own agenda which almost nobody’s falling for anyway.

 

[Starmill]

That’s never been acknowledged to my understanding other than Scotrail and RMT pretending they’d compromised by any senior figures in the industry as a reasonable compromise, it’s traditional guard operation with a very minor tweak

In many ways it's now just traditional guard operation. It has been the status quo at Virgin Trains (remember their trains all have a guard, and always have done) for well over a decade. It is the status quo on most of the CrossCountry and Southeastern fleets also. Where Chiltern trains have a guard, this is how they operate. It's not like there is any real reason for the driver not to open the doors anywhere anymore. The way I see it, that's an entirely seperate question from having a guard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In many ways it's now just traditional guard operation. It has been the status quo at Virgin Trains (remember their trains all have a guard, and always have done) for well over a decade. It is the status quo on most of the CrossCountry and Southeastern fleets also. Where Chiltern trains have a guard, this is how they operate. It's not like there is any real reason for the driver not to open the doors anywhere anymore. The way I see it, that's an entirely seperate question from having a guard.

It (driver release) was also used on Southern before the switch to OBS working. I don't think Southern guards have ever released doors on any class of unit - it went from non-locked slamdoors straight to either DOO (455s) or driver release (Electrostars).

FWIW, I certainly believe this should be the default method of working on all non-DOO multiple unit trains throughout the UK, and all TOCs not presently doing that, Northern included, should start the process of switching (e.g. by installing proper SDO to replace Unit Deselect which requires a guard to do it - though local door would also be a workable replacement in some cases). It saves several seconds per stop with almost no downside, and also makes revenue easier to do because you can finish a transaction then go and dispatch without passengers panicking they aren't going to get off.

 

[Starmill]

The implication there is that DOO is the only real acceptable method of operation whereas in actual fact guard operation is a perfectly standard method in itself. In actual fact in most places Northern rub shoulders with other operators they will be the only trains that are DOO. I'm sure the passengers (and staff) that for the sake of a paper exercise are served by Northern rather than TPE, TfW, EMT etc would be delighted to work that out.

I can't think of any common locations between Northern's network map and national rail trains without a guard to be honest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't think of any common locations between Northern's network map and national rail trains without a guard to be honest.

Though it will be interesting to see if there is any proposal for LNR to switch to DOO at any point[1]. Other than that, Northern only really overlap with long-distance IC/express operations where DOO brings little if any benefit.

[1] OBS would give south WCML guards a kick to get out of the back cab, at least; tickets being done south of Northampton is such a rarity, though admittedly with the barriered stations now being staffed for the full period of service there are relatively few holes there now.

 

[Starmill]

Though it will be interesting to see if there is any proposal for LNR to switch to DOO at any point. Other than that, Northern only really overlap with long-distance IC/express operations where DOO brings little if any benefit.

In addition to West Midlands Trains, they also share stations with Merseyrail, Scotrail, Transport for Wales, EMT Regional and TransPennine Express who all operate at least some stopping services. It seems these are likely all to retain guards, for now at least.

Why is Northern the only one being so picked on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In addition to West Midlands Trains, they also share stations with Merseyrail, Scotrail, Transport for Wales, EMT Regional and TransPennine Express who all operate at least some stopping services. It seems these are likely all to retain guards, for now at least.

I believe the Merseyrail agreement is basically OBS-like rather than guards - they will, as I understand it, not be operating doors in any form. Guards for now though.

TPE I had down as long-distance/IC, as that is the style of the "new" TPE once the new stock turns up. The others, yes, good point.

 

[Starmill]

TPE I had down as long-distance/IC, as that is the style of the "new" TPE once the new stock turns up.

They will however still be running all stations services on the Huddersfield line.

 

[yorksrob]

Why is Northern the only one being so picked on?

Quite. This is the question that has never been adequately answered.

There seem to be some people who are happy to sacrifice any amount of Northern passengers' time/money/convenience in a fruitless fight with the RMT, yet never explain why these other TOC's are seemingly able to operate without DOO.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In addition to West Midlands Trains, they also share stations with Merseyrail, Scotrail, Transport for Wales, EMT Regional and TransPennine Express who all operate at least some stopping services. It seems these are likely all to retain guards, for now at least.

Why is Northern the only one being so picked on?

Quite. This is the question that has never been adequately answered.

There seem to be some people who are happy to sacrifice any amount of Northern passengers' time/money/convenience in a fruitless fight with the RMT, yet never explain why these other TOC's are seemingly able to operate without DOO.

ISTR that the ITT for the current TPE franchise included an option to introduce DOO. Rumour at the time was that the incumbent management very quickly concluded that any financial benefit was not worth the inevitable hassle. And of course the new franchise management is effectively the same as the old. In light of Wilkinson's infamous speech I wonder if a freedom of information request to the DfT about a possible TOC DOO hit list would produce any answers?

 

[yorkie]

Quite. This is the question that has never been adequately answered.

There seem to be some people who are happy to sacrifice any amount of Northern passengers' time/money/convenience in a fruitless fight with the RMT, yet never explain why these other TOC's are seemingly able to operate without DOO.

The majority of passenger journeys are made on DOO services nowadays, so I think the question should really be the other way round!

 

[ComUtoR]

The majority of passenger journeys are made on DOO services nowadays, so I think the question should really be the other way round!

If DOO is only considered to be around 30% then how do you make the majority of journeys DOO ?

 

[yorkie]

If DOO is only considered to be around 30% then how do you make the majority of journeys DOO ?

I don't know what your source is but you are presumably excluding London Underground (and perhaps London Overground)? I'm taking about rail journeys overall.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The majority of passenger journeys are made on DOO services nowadays, so I think the question should really be the other way round!

This point has been made a number of times in this discussion but how does it break down? In particular does that "greater than 50%" statement rely on including journeys made on London Underground? Because the LU operating environment is significantly different to that found on the national network making such comparisons rather meaningless.

 

[yorkie]

This point has been made a number of times in this discussion but how does it break down? In particular does that "greater than 50%" statement rely on including journeys made on London Underground? Because the LU operating environment is significantly different to that found on the national network making such comparisons rather meaningless.

If you take NR as a whole then many parts are identical to LU; indeed you can be on an NR train on LU infrastructure and vice-versa. At this point, someone comes along and says that DOO does not exist for long distance services or services through rural areas, so to spare that I'll mention King's Lynn to King's Cross.

This has all been done to death many times before, but nothing changes and those who suggest DOO is "unsafe" are, quite frankly, anti-rail. The only reason we are having to go round in circles again and again is because people keep spreading untruths and so people like me have to issue corrections to the incorrect facts.

If the RMT just admitted the truth, we could be spared this never ending circular debate.

 

[bb21]

Since this thread is again just going round in circles and none of you will likely change your personal opinions any time soon, in view of the current farcical discussion I am going to be the evil one and close the thread.

The staff team will discuss separately how threads on further progress in this dispute will be managed on the forum. Until a decision is made, only posts on relevant service updates in relation to this dispute will be permitted and anyone wishing to do so can open a separate thread only when strictly necessary.

Please also be advised that while we have no intention to restrict constructive discussion on these clearly wide-impacting actions, any attempt at circumnavigating the closure of this thread through the use of other threads will be liable for deletion without further notice, in particular members expressing opinions and making points already repeatedly posted in this thread.