Arriva Rail North DOO

[Dave1987]

Dave. In the race to the bottom some people think it is good to be in the lead.

I know. Us damn train drivers, how dare we earn decent wages, don’t we know that we should be on minimum wage. Well that’s what the right wing press would make out anyway.

 

[Gems]

I know. Us damn train drivers, how dare we earn decent wages, don’t we know that we should be on minimum wage. Well that’s what the right wing press would make out anyway.

Yes, a certain Peter Wilkinson who earns about £139,000 more than 'Maybot' thinks so. Funny how those who earn a lot think those earning less are undeserving. Even more baffling why those earning less think they are right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about that poor woman who saw her dog dragged to it's death at Borehamwood the other month. That would not have happened if the train had a guard.

Careful. Trap and drags HAVE occurred on guarded trains.

 

[Gems]

Careful. Trap and drags HAVE occurred on guarded trains.

Can you give a link to one. Not the Merseyrail incident either which wasn't a trap and drag, but a complete failing of the guard who earned no sympathy at all from within the industry.
Actually just going off topic slightly. Because the young girl was drunk and drugged up, the guard got more sympathy from the public than he did from other guards whom he got non. Really strange was that. But you do find anyone in trouble due to safety failings tend to get no sympathy from colleagues. Could that be because we take safety of passengers seriously?

 

[northwichcat]

By flexibility you mean employers being able to change job descriptions, hours, pay, terms & conditions of employees at will. So your average joe working man or woman has no certainty from one year to the next about their employment. That’s where unions come in to stop employees being exploited. That is until hard right Tories legislate to nullify unions in the name of free markets. The more this carries on the more likely you are to get a Corbyn Government.

No I mean flexibility to change what you do within a role. For instance, in 2008 I had Adobe Flash development on my job description - Steve Job's decision to not allow Flash on the iPhone and iPad plus the popularity of the iPhone, along with more streamlined alternatives becoming available, effectively killed off Flash so should I have continued working on Flash based projects even though there was no demand for them because it was on my job description? The impression some give on here is they would have gone on strike in my position and would have ensured they continued to work on something that no-one wanted just because it was on their job descriptions.

 

[northwichcat]

Definitely not my Government. I didn’t vote for them and they do not respresent me.

Coming from the person who voted supported the Conservatives when David Cameron was leader and always came on here praising George Osborne's austerity budgets with a couple of nice headline policies thrown in to distract from the bad policies. Funny how you were happy to see a government who froze public sector pay and was directly responsible for making large numbers of public sector workers redundant but then as soon as they start saying they are in favour of DOO on the railways you turn all left wing.

 

[northwichcat]

I know. Us damn train drivers, how dare we earn decent wages, don’t we know that we should be on minimum wage. Well that’s what the right wing press would make out anyway.

It's been said numerous times the reason train drivers earn so much is down the freight companies not wanting to train drivers and trying to poach them from TOCs, who then try to incentivise them to stay. Funny how the unions want nationalisation when if the railways hadn't been privatised you'll likely be on £25,000 to £30,000 and had 5 years of 1% pay rises under Cameron's government.

 

[northwichcat]

Can you give a link to one. Not the Merseyrail incident either which wasn't a trap and drag, but a complete failing of the guard who earned no sympathy at all from within the industry.

There was one at Newcastle with a 185, which led to the yellow teeth stickers being put on the doors on Desiros as part of the RAIB recommendation in response.

 

[Robertj21a]

Northernrail employ members of the RMT when they take them on as drivers...LNER are more than happy to take on Northern trained guards also, could it be because they know they're a high standard?

I wasn't questioning the high standard of anybody - and agree that other positions on the railways wouldn't have a problem employing RMT members. I'm just suggesting that many employers wouldn't want to recruit new staff who were more used to the RMT approach to employment, and employers.

 

[Gems]

No I mean flexibility to change what you do within a role. For instance, in 2008 I had Adobe Flash development on my job description - Steve Job's decision to not allow Flash on the iPhone and iPad plus the popularity of the iPhone, along with more streamlined alternatives becoming available, effectively killed off Flash so should I have continued working on Flash based projects even though there was no demand for them because it was on my job description? The impression some give on here is they would have gone on strike in my position and would have ensured they continued to work on something that no-one wanted just because it was on their job descriptions.

If your argument had any basis, we would all still be using 'Sportis' Change has never been resisted, as long as change made sense.

Could it be that the strikes are being supported because rather than blindly following the RMT like some think, people actually can see the bigger picture. The thing about hating any organisation is that you become blind and refuse to see. Ask yourself one very simple question. Remove staff from the trains, make them more risky in a emergency, and will it bring down the price of your ticket as a trade off? No it wont, because the basis for this thinking is simply to screw more profit and the expense of everyone.
Northern rail are going running back to the government. The subsidy level was also written into the franchise agreement, but they seem to want to discuss changes to that. David Brown has now backed himself into a corner, because coming away and taking the same "DCO is written into the franchise and we have to carry it out" will not wash now. Many drivers have also taken note of this.
This dispute is going nowhere, get set for the long haul unless everything is up for discussion

 

[Gems]

There was one at Newcastle with a 185, which led to the yellow teeth stickers being put on the doors on Desiros as part of the RAIB recommendation in response.

Yes there was. And again the guard got no sympathy because he had failed miserably. But the common denominator in these incidents was the guard walked, in one case into Walton jail. How many drivers on DCO have walked after similar incidents? I am aware of non, because it is all part of making the inevitable acceptable.

 

[northwichcat]

The subsidy level was also written into the franchise agreement, but they seem to want to discuss changes to that.

As everyone who posts in this thread should be well aware the franchise agreement was based on two large recasts one in December 2017 and one in December 2019. Due to failings by Network Rail that wasn't possible, hence parts of the agreement have to be rewritten. DfT also arranged with Northern and Porterbrook for 8 x 769s to be introduced by May 2018 in lieu of late electrification and Porterbrook failed to deliver those in time. So there's parts of the franchise agreement which have to be rewritten because of things outside of Northern's control.

What's changed regarding DOO? Are the 195s or 331s going to be unsuitable for DOO? Has new research found the method of operation less safe than it was previously thought to be? If not why should it change?

Could it be that the strikes are being supported because rather than blindly following the RMT like some think, people actually can see the bigger picture.

You do realise the RMT never submitted a written response to the Northern consultation which mentioned the possibly of DOO. If the RMT didn't think it was worth bothering about at the consultation stage, why was it worth striking over as soon as the Northern franchise started?

 

[Dave1987]

Coming from the person who voted supported the Conservatives when David Cameron was leader and always came on here praising George Osborne's austerity budgets with a couple of nice headline policies thrown in to distract from the bad policies. Funny how you were happy to see a government who froze public sector pay and was directly responsible for making large numbers of public sector workers redundant but then as soon as they start saying they are in favour of DOO on the railways you turn all left wing.

After watching two Tory MPs lambast my friends on TV without having the common curtesy to actually talk to them it opened my eyes let’s put it that way shall we? They were asked to talk to them and both Tory MPs point blank refused after doing their nonsense to camera.

 

[Moonshot]

As everyone who posts in this thread should be well aware the franchise agreement was based on two large recasts one in December 2017 and one in December 2019. Due to failings by Network Rail that wasn't possible, hence parts of the agreement have to be rewritten. DfT also arranged with Northern and Porterbrook for 8 x 769s to be introduced by May 2018 in lieu of late electrification and Porterbrook failed to deliver those in time. So there's parts of the franchise agreement which have to be rewritten because of things outside of Northern's control.

What's changed regarding DOO? Are the 195s or 331s going to be unsuitable for DOO? Has new research found the method of operation less safe than it was previously thought to be? If not why should it change?



You do realise the RMT never submitted a written response to the Northern consultation which mentioned the possibly of DOO. If the RMT didn't think it was worth bothering about at the consultation stage, why was it worth striking over as soon as the Northern franchise started?

Indeed.....a fact lost on a lot of posters.

 

[Robertj21a]

It's not my government. I didn't vote for the mess they are creating all around them.

Have to admit I did laugh at this. "To scare those who realise they might not cope in the real world" So all the guards who used to be in the services, ex police, etc couldn't cope in the real world. Would you cope in their world? Would you cope on a late train on a Saturday night full of fighting drunks.

Personally I think a bit of respect is needed on this forum.

I'd cope perfectly well, but that doesn't mean that I want to do the job

If guards really aren't 'scared' of the real world away from the railways then why do so many (particularly on this forum) act as if a simple change of role is utterly beyond them ?.
How many other jobs do you know where no redundancies have been offered for many years ahead ?

 

[Robertj21a]

After watching two Tory MPs lambast my friends on TV without having the common curtesy to actually talk to them it opened my eyes let’s put it that way shall we? They were asked to talk to them and both Tory MPs point blank refused after doing their nonsense to camera.

Dave,

I know you like to keep reiterating your political views and how terrible the Tories are etc etc but do you feel that they/DfT are to blame for all the current DOO disputes ?
How do you feel the RMT has handled the situation ?

 

[Dave1987]

It's been said numerous times the reason train drivers earn so much is down the freight companies not wanting to train drivers and trying to poach them from TOCs, who then try to incentivise them to stay. Funny how the unions want nationalisation when if the railways hadn't been privatised you'll likely be on £25,000 to £30,000 and had 5 years of 1% pay rises under Cameron's government.

Haha with wages at £25k-£30k the railways would not be attracting the kind of talent it is. We all know you are bitter at the fact people who you seem to see as your inferiors are paid more than you are.

 

[northwichcat]

Haha with wages at £25k-£30k the railways would not be attracting the kind of talent it is. We all know you are bitter at the fact people who you seem to see as your inferiors are paid more than you are.

Under BR I don't think there was much difference between train drivers and jobs like teachers, now there's a huge difference with train drivers' salaries having increased a lot faster than inflation over the years. Although, of course you've only ever been on privatised train driver pay rates.

 

[Dave1987]

Dave,

I know you like to keep reiterating your political views and how terrible the Tories are etc etc but do you feel that they/DfT are to blame for all the current DOO disputes ?
How do you feel the RMT has handled the situation ?

Yes the DFT is 100% to blame for all the DOO disputes. They have proven they cannot be trusted so no one believes any guarantees they give. Everything has to be legally binding. If the DFT had engaged properly from the start none of this would have happened.

 

[yorkie]

Exactly. Their responses were conditioned by the ongoing strike. If they were told that it was possivle to have a guard aboard the train and no strikes, how would they have responded ?

The far 'left', including the RMT, also massage results, you surely can't deny that?

What most passengers actually want (apart from aspects such as a reliable service, which is a given) is a visible staff presence. Hardly any passenger who has experienced the electric trains in the Glasgow area are going to want to swap the staffing on those trains with what we get on TPE and Northern, where it is rare to see any staff in a passenger part of the train on many services, on many evenings.

Not at all sure how you could read that into it !. My point was to try to consider how things might have been if the RMT had been less of a dinosaur. I'm not sure that the DfT, or politics at all really, are much to do with the way in which the RMT decides to run their union.

Agreed.

The suggestion from the extreme 'left' that people who are actually moderates are therefore 'right' wing and must be Tory supporters is absurd and says a lot about how bizarre their arguments are. They are clutching at straws by trying to make false claims about what others are saying, without actually addressing the issues.

Most people know the RMT are not fit for purpose, their support must be absolutely miniscule. But they won't care about that as they are not here to represent the average person!

 

[Ken H]

Cant see why DOO is seen as such a safety issue when removing signalmen from the lineside isnt
There was a case reported on railforums about someone seeing a HST with a cover open. But no signalman to see it.
And level crossing safety too. If there had been a crossing keeper, then ufton nervert would not have happened.
Seems RMT are a bit selective in their safety concerns.

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes the DFT is 100% to blame for all the DOO disputes. They have proven they cannot be trusted so no one believes any guarantees they give. Everything has to be legally binding. If the DFT had engaged properly from the start none of this would have happened.

Could you answer my query about the RMT please ?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Most people know the RMT are not fit for purpose, their support must be absolutely miniscule. But they won't care about that as they are not here to represent the average person!

Of course they don't care. They know the passengers will get irate but won't be able to do jack to sort it out.

 

[B&I]

It's not my government, it's everyone's government, including you.

I don't accept the continual bleating about 'job security' because, quite simply, there will be plenty of jobs for everyone who wants one. Just because the RMT like to call strikes doesn't mean to say that there's any real risks - it's to scare the likes of those who realise that they might not cope very well out in the real world.

What jobs, after 2025 ?

What makes you any more of an expert on the real world than the average train guard ?

It doesn't take too long for your posts to start dripping with contempt towards people about whom you know nothing, along with your basesless sense of your own superiority.

 

[Dave1987]

Could you answer my query about the RMT please ?

Two of my very good friends are RMT reps and they do a very good job for their members. RMT press releases at national standards are disastrous but you have no idea what happens at a local level. You prefer to label the RMT and all its members as dinosaurs without knowing anything that goes on at local levels. The Tories have set their store out and so has Peter Wilkinson. It’s going to take a lot of engagement to heal the rifts. The DFT and Grayling aren’t interested as he likes to blame everyone else for the shambles in his department. I believe the unions have requested a meeting with RMT, ASLEF and Grayling to sort out these disputes but Grayling isn’t interested and would rather hide in the corner.

 

[B&I]

The far 'left', including the RMT, also massage results, you surely can't deny that?

What most passengers actually want (apart from aspects such as a reliable service, which is a given) is a visible staff presence. Hardly any passenger who has experienced the electric trains in the Glasgow area are going to want to swap the staffing on those trains with what we get on TPE and Northern, where it is rare to see any staff in a passenger part of the train on many services, on many evenings.

Agreed.

The suggestion from the extreme 'left' that people who are actually moderates are therefore 'right' wing and must be Tory supporters is absurd and says a lot about how bizarre their arguments are. They are clutching at straws by trying to make false claims about what others are saying, without actually addressing the issues.

Most people know the RMT are not fit for purpose, their support must be absolutely miniscule. But they won't care about that as they are not here to represent the average person!

As I pointed out to jcollins, I can see the logic behind DOO. It is the proponents of DOO on here who turn me against the idea.

Apparently this isn't a matter of party politics, but it would seem that anyone opposed to the current government belongs to the 'far left'. I am prepared to accept that not everyone who might support DOO is a salivating Thatcherite (as I've said, I can see the logic behind it), but some of its most vocal supporters on here clearly are.

 

[B&I]

Coming from the person who voted supported the Conservatives when David Cameron was leader and always came on here praising George Osborne's austerity budgets with a couple of nice headline policies thrown in to distract from the bad policies. Funny how you were happy to see a government who froze public sector pay and was directly responsible for making large numbers of public sector workers redundant but then as soon as they start saying they are in favour of DOO on the railways you turn all left wing.

At least he's realised the error of his ways....

 

[yorkie]

Apparently this isn't a matter of party politics, but it would seem that anyone opposed to the current government belongs to the 'far left'. I am prepared to accept that not everyone who might support DOO is a salivating Thatcherite (as I've said, I can see the logic behind it), but some of its most vocal supporters on here clearly are.

No. The far left are the RMT and their supporters. They are extremists who are against ordinary people going about their business.

I know plenty of people who are moderately left wing who are pro-railways and know that the railways in the Glasgow area are a good service for passengers and there is a visible, friendly staff presence, and know that it would be good if the current abysmal service on Northern could be raised to those levels.

Yet the RMT's supporters claim such people are Tory supporters, which seems to be used as some sort of insult. All it does is make the RMTs supporters look more and more desperate and detached from reality.

Cant see why DOO is seen as such a safety issue when removing signalmen from the lineside isnt
There was a case reported on railforums about someone seeing a HST with a cover open. But no signalman to see it.
And level crossing safety too. If there had been a crossing keeper, then ufton nervert would not have happened.
Seems RMT are a bit selective in their safety concerns.

Of course; their job is not to be balanced, nor is it to represent what is best for passengers. Their job is purely to represent the interest of their members. The problem is that the are so hard-line and extremist, and their aims are unachievable, but that won't stop them trying. No-one can talk any sense into them.

Also the strikes are causing conflict between platform staff and passengers. Some platform staff dread going to work on Saturdays now. It's a toxic situation for which the RMT are clearly principally to blame.

 

[Dave1987]

At least he's realised the error of his ways....

When you see your friends and colleagues genuinely worried for their futures and that of their families lambasted as hard nosed socialists merely attempting to bring the Government down by two right wing Tory MPs who then refused to actually talk to these ordinary working people about their concerns it kind of opens your eyes a bit. Never seen such utter contempt for the ordinary working man. They were far more concerned with spouting their dribbling nonsense to the camera to then jump in their expensive cars and get out of there.

 

[northwichcat]

What jobs, after 2025 ?

DfT have said they will guarantee the jobs until at least 12 months in to the following franchise. Even then it's only the end of a guarantee which isn't the same as those still employed in the role losing their jobs. On the other hand due to the RMT strikes a lot of those, particularly in the retail sector, have had to reduce their hours or even leave their jobs. The strikes are causing job loses, not preventing them.