Arriva Rail North DOO

[Killingworth]

So what happens when we get to 2019. Every Saturday is still going to be a strike for Northern? It's getting beyond a joke now.

It's very simple - it's certainly not a joke.

RMT can continue striking on Saturdays throughout 2019 and Northern can keep on providing a limited service on some lines and none on others. No negotiations occur. A few guards might be encouraged to resume Saturday work, but on the other hand many of the stand in guards will have had enough and find they have more pressing things to do at the weekend. Rail users will adapt to managing without trains on Saturdays, and that habit will become more entrenched the longer it goes on, and after it has finished.

Northern might be tempted to shut up altogether on Saturdays and make it easier to plan operations, but that would really hack off those passengers who have had a limited service.

RMT might declare an all out strike ufn. That would really upset travellers, especially those reliant on Northern trains to get to work without feasible alternatives. It would also have income implications for strikers.

RMT might realise every Saturday is getting too well organised and decide to cause greater disruption without an all out strike. This week Monday, next week Tuesday, then Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and round again.....

Northern could recruit new OBS staff with new terms and conditions and gradually introduce them - probably causing warfare in crew rooms. Money might be offered.

There's plenty of scope for this to get even more messy. Peace is always harder to achieve once in the trenches, up to our necks in muck and bullets. We are, unfortunately, in that position. It's no good trying to wind the clock back; we can't start again with a clean sheet.

I sense most on here are not party political, but certainly do favour the use of rail services. That might indicate slightly left of centre views. From what's being written some must be either passive or active supporters of local line and station community groups, keen and able to promote the use of rail services.

Surely none are in favour of strife?

ACAS have heard it. They couldn't solve it. Someone has to try and break the deadlock.

There are enough other issues for Northern to be concentrating on that will benefit employees, passengers and the wider community. Better and more urgent refurbishing of old trains. Early introduction of new rolling stock. Timetabling issues. Station facilities. IT, ticketing and fares. Employment terms and conditions.

At present many of the staff responsible for those aspects of Northern are acting as guards so their normal duties must be suffering. It's not just every Saturday, but the training days needed for the role. It's the days taken off in compensation.

They say the best thing about a quarrel can be the making up afterwards. I sure hope we can see some of that with increasing morale all round - and very soon!

 

[Starmill]

So what happens when we get to 2019. Every Saturday is still going to be a strike for Northern? It's getting beyond a joke now.

Hopefully the facts will have changed by then. Hopefully. This one looks like it will be a long hard slog for railway passengers though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW we've been here before. In about 2002, First North Western had a lengthy period of strikes on both Saturdays and Sundays. FNW organised a very comprehensive replacement coach service on pretty much all routes give or take the small branches, and no train service was operated at all. The coaches were not busy, but it did provide a nice upgrade from a Class 142, and people who needed to get places got a decent (mostly hourly) service to do so for the full service day, pretty much.

Could Arriva do something similar? As it *is* Arriva, might they be able to bring in buses from subsidiaries reasonably easily? Though First of course didn't do this, they hired in coaches.

 

[Robertj21a]

I doubt any of the anti union armchair motormouths on here would have the balls to go to one of the public meetings and spout the right wing drivel they seem to relish in posting on here on a constant merry go round cycle.

Thank you. A fully paid up member of the RMT I guess ?. Always good to hear their views.......

 

[Starmill]

Could Arriva do something similar? As it *is* Arriva, might they be able to bring in buses from subsidiaries reasonably easily? Though First of course didn't do this, they hired in coaches.

They don't seem to be going with any options to mitigate the loss of services when/where trains can't run. They have decided not to pursue bus replacement except a token service in a handful of situations, or ticket acceptance with transport operators (e.g. First Bus, Metrolink, etc) where cash might be required.

 

[uww11x]

Does the union pay the staff for the lost earnings? Surely in the long term staff can't afford to lose pay every week?

 

[FlashingYellows]

The fantasy scenarios dreamt up on here can only make you smile. What many fail to grasp despite it being pointed out time and again is that no matter what happens with the guards, drivers have to agree to drive them, there is no appetite for this at all, regardless of any potential offers. The union have a policy against DOO expansion and the members don't want it, as they know the reality of DOO.

Fantasies such as just get rid of the guards as they're no longer protected by industrial action...great, who drives the train DOO without agreement? A few times I've seen it mentioned that the new trains mean no guards, erm no, they can be worked with guards or without and as no agreement has been reached they will be worked with guards.

I know some on here have their ideologies, but try not to confuse this with the reality. When the only justification for DOO offered is that a miniscule amount of services wouldn't be cancelled if a guard is unavailable or doors may be done a few seconds faster against the countless positives having a guard brings then I do wonder why some are so keen to see the implementation?

 

[Starmill]

Does the union pay the staff for the lost earnings? Surely in the long term staff can't afford to lose pay every week?

In many cases some 'hardship payments' might be available. In some cases they may be quite a bit, I don't know. It's... unlikely they would come particularly close to as much as 34 days pay though.

 

[Overspeed110]

Thank you. A fully paid up member of the RMT I guess ?. Always good to hear their views.......

ASLEF, actually.

But I fully support the action the RMT are taking and their reasons for it.

I've had a read back through this thread, (good job i have a high boredom threshold) and you continually spout the same rubbish over and over and over again, i think its time you gave it a rest.

 

[woodhouse122]

I have a feeling this time next year we will still be having these Saturday strikes ,The RMT are not going to win this strike,i can see them going the same way as the NUM in the 80s.Northern have nothing to lose and this tory goverment will back them to the hilt

 

[woodmally]

In many cases some 'hardship payments' might be available. In some cases they may be quite a bit, I don't know. It's... unlikely they would come particularly close to as much as 34 days pay though.

No need for hardship payments at all to be honest. Thats why they chose Saturday. They will just recoup the money working Sundays.

 

[Carlisle]

ASLEF, actually.

But I fully support the action the RMT are taking and their reasons for it.

I've had a read back through this thread, (good job i have a high boredom threshold) and you continually spout the same rubbish over and over and over again, i think its time you gave it a rest.

Aren’t you mostly just trying to safeguard an easier future life still earning a nice wage ? Unfortunately that’s certainly the main impression coming across from most drivers posting on here in a similar style.

 

[Starmill]

No need for hardship payments at all to be honest. Thats why they chose Saturday. They will just recoup the money working Sundays.

Why does every Sunday see a very significant number of cancellations due to a shortage of train crew, then?

 

[woodmally]

Why does every Sunday see a very significant number of cancellations due to a shortage of train crew, then?

Train crew can also mean drivers. And remember Sunday is entirely run on overtime. There is no fixed shifts for some strange reason.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Train crew can also mean drivers. And remember Sunday is entirely run on overtime. There is no fixed shifts for some strange reason.

If as you say, that Northern only run Sunday services entirely on overtime, surely that would have been known at the time of the granting of the existing franchise so based upon that, would it ever be the case that Northern would cease to operate on Sundays under the present Saturday strike scenario despite any franchise requirements and receive DfT backing in such a specific strike scenario that now occurs?

 

[northwichcat]

FWIW we've been here before. In about 2002, First North Western had a lengthy period of strikes on both Saturdays and Sundays. FNW organised a very comprehensive replacement coach service on pretty much all routes give or take the small branches, and no train service was operated at all. The coaches were not busy, but it did provide a nice upgrade from a Class 142, and people who needed to get places got a decent (mostly hourly) service to do so for the full service day, pretty much.

Could Arriva do something similar? As it *is* Arriva, might they be able to bring in buses from subsidiaries reasonably easily? Though First of course didn't do this, they hired in coaches.

Didn't the FNW strikes end with an overtime ban being introduced, which led to some services being removed from the timetable for a few months until new drivers were trained, or were the strikes RMT and the overtime ban ASLEF?

 

[scrapy]

Why does every Sunday see a very significant number of cancellations due to a shortage of train crew, then?

Because it's generally a shortage of drivers on Sundays not guards.

 

[scrapy]

They don't seem to be going with any options to mitigate the loss of services when/where trains can't run. They have decided not to pursue bus replacement except a token service in a handful of situations, or ticket acceptance with transport operators (e.g. First Bus, Metrolink, etc) where cash might be required.

Yes they seem to have given up on this. Last year at the beginning of the dispute they ran replacement buses to at least provide a token service on shorter routes such as Preston to Ormskirk and Lancaster to Morecambe. I also don't understand how they get away with stopping running replacement buses on routes like Bolton to Manchester at 7pm when the buses would normally contracted until the end of the evening due to engineering. According to a Blackpool Transport driver it's not due to the availability of vehicles or drivers just that Northern won't pay.

 

[Robertj21a]

ASLEF, actually.

But I fully support the action the RMT are taking and their reasons for it.

I've had a read back through this thread, (good job i have a high boredom threshold) and you continually spout the same rubbish over and over and over again, i think its time you gave it a rest.

I realise that you only joined a few days ago but you might have realised that this is an open forum.

I respect that others will have a range of views, and I join in the discussions based on my understanding of the current situation (plus some knowledge from non-rail industries). If you don't like what I write you're very welcome to ignore it.

Hopefully, you'll feel able to 'spout' your own views on here so that we can better understand your reasons.

 

[Carlisle]

Because it's generally a shortage of drivers on Sundays not guards.

ASLEF upset about something maybe? so another unofficial overtime ban, perhaps ?

 

[a_c_skinner]

This would, of course, be a good time to make weekends normal working days. Northern will have to reach some sort of bargain with ASLEF and the RMT has already spent a lot of staff fortitude on this strike, so a good time to wrap it all up in a bold attempt to modernise working practices into the 1990s.

 

[northwichcat]

ASLEF upset about something maybe? so another unofficial overtime ban, perhaps ?

Overtime agreement previously agreed had an expiry date and they want extra incentives to agree a new one.

 

[Carlisle]

Overtime agreement previously agreed had an expiry date and they want extra incentives to agree a new one.

Cheers for the explanation

 

[muz379]

No need for hardship payments at all to be honest. Thats why they chose Saturday. They will just recoup the money working Sundays.

Ive seen this nonsense comment on a number of occasions now and its just frankly way off the mark . There is only a fraction of the jobs on a sunday compared to the number of guards that will be on strike on a saturday .

And there are still people who just flat out dont work sundays because they see it as family time .

ASLEF upset about something maybe? so another unofficial overtime ban, perhaps ?

Overtime agreement previously agreed had an expiry date and they want extra incentives to agree a new one.

Its nothing to do with that .

Its to do with the Sunday agreement for drivers , the drivers Sunday agreement says there is no obligation on them to come in if their job has been changed .At certain depots many are exercising their right to do exactly that .

 

[Puffing Devil]

I used to be a regular traveller on a weekend to the football. I now drive and may not go back to the train: despite the traffic, the door to door journey time is about the same on the outbound, with no walk in the rain from the station to the Etihad. Return trip I can be almost home before the train has left the station. I've found a parking space 7 minutes walk away that costs me £5 and I estimate my fuel at about £5; the car costs are overwise covered as it would be sitting idle at the station anyway.

That's a chunk of revenue that's not coming back. Still pee'd off about not getting any use out of my 3 year family railcard, though.

 

[Segedunum]

As a journo student I'm currently producing a piece on the delights of what's been occuring on Northern this past year (May timetable change, strikes, stock issues)

Part and parcel of that is going out, willingly on a strike day.

And if this morning on the South Manchester Lines is anything to go by, people have well and truly given up. That said, it's the Christmas Light switch on this evening and I'm predicting chaos for the buses when people realise they can't get home...

 

[northwichcat]

As a journo student I'm currently producing a piece on the delights of what's been occuring on Northern this past year (May timetable change, strikes, stock issues)

Part and parcel of that is going out, willingly on a strike day.

And if this morning on the South Manchester Lines is anything to go by, people have well and truly given up. That said, it's the Christmas Light switch on this evening and I'm predicting chaos for the buses when people realise they can't get home...

Not just Manchester Christmas lights which are an issue, many complaints about being no service to get home from bonfire displays as well, particularly outside the PTE areas where there isn't an alternative evening bus/tram service.

 

[DaveB10780]

Not just Manchester Christmas lights which are an issue, many complaints about being no service to get home from bonfire displays as well, particularly outside the PTE areas where there isn't an alternative evening bus/tram service.

This is what I just cannot understand, how a small group of people is allowed to mess up thousands of peoples weekends. The arrogance of the RMT leaders who think they have public support is most bizarre. What more do they expect to gain since they already have promise of jobs. Get back to work please starting next week.

 

[Carlisle]

This is what I just cannot understand, how a small group of people is allowed to mess up thousands of peoples weekends. The arrogance of the RMT leaders who think they have public support is most bizarre. What more do they expect to gain since they already have promise of jobs. Get back to work please starting next week.

The same was said during the Southern dispute, along with frequent suggestions the law should be tightened on industrial action , but ASLEFs willingness to eventually agree a deal probably prevented the govt acting further, leaving the RMT free to take their campaign elsewhere

 

[Tomnick]

The same was said during the Southern dispute, along with frequent suggestions the law should be tightened on industrial action , but ASLEFs willingness to eventually agree a deal probably prevented the govt acting further.

It was around the time of the Southern dispute that Peter Wilkinson made his passionate "break the unions" speech, about how he was going to "push them into that place" (strikes until the unions can no longer sustain them) and how it was going to be messy so everyone would have to have some patience. Let's be clear - this is his making. He wanted these long series of disruptive strikes, and the seemingly pointless "DCO" requirement was his way of provoking them.