Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

But logically in proportion, if a plane needs 4 cabin crew a train would need one? Rather than none? An emergency could just as easy happen on a train as a plane, it's just that typically people don't feel as vulenrable on a train because they're on the ground. I would argue that a fight is more likely inside a train than a plane. To have no staff there to be able to be alerted is worrying.

One member of staff is not going to intervene in a fight. They will hide in the cab.

 

[pt_mad]

Having seen a feasibility study for a totally different area of rail operations I suspect many of the things said to be feasible would only be achievable after a lot of costly adjustments out of all proportion to any benefits to be gained. Feasible if...... and when ............. can be guaranteed first. The one I saw was apparently feasible. That meant the consultant's time, effort and bill could be said to have been justified. Nevertheless, it went straight onto an electronic shelf to gather dust where it will remain until it gets forgotten about or until it's accidentally deleted. I'd have said the costs were understated and the assumptions of outcomes were far too optimistic.

There's talk of managers not wishing to work Saturday trains. There are a lot of staff who are not called managers helping to keep the trains running. Many are not used to working Saturdays and they aren't died in the wool railway people from the north. If they're normal workers they'll be looking at jobs elsewhere and, especially if they're good, will go and get them. Why hang around with all this hassle?

When they do try keeping the wheels turning the day job has to suffer. That can have all sorts of consequences when tasks get behind. Once or twice a month is different from every Saturday. Some dedicated staff will be taking more work home, or trying to do it on lap tops between trips. These factors will bring their toll as fatigue starts to set in. A lot of things that should have been done won't have been, or not done as well as they should. People expecting actions may find they're delayed, or just don't happen. Projects within Northern may suffer, and collateral disruption is unpredictable.

The damage caused by the dispute is greater than the missing trains. That's what happens during periods of industrial action, anywhere.

Presumably the DFT knew that when they wrote DCO into the franchise?

 

[pt_mad]

One member of staff is not going to intervene in a fight. They will hide in the cab.

Quite possibly as it is usually policy to retreat and alert the police, controls and the next station. The staff would probably encourage vulnerable passengers out of the way, to safety if it's possible.
The guard would also hold the train at the next station to await help, rather than the driver being unaware and taking the train on without knowing.

It's surely better than no action, and potentially nothing being reported and incidents going unnoticed. The staff ain't the law, and some official presence is better than none and can often be a deterrent especially at night Vs the public know the train is definitely DOO.

 

[nuneatonmark]

I am sure that once the required 'pieces of silver' are offered the 'safety' issue and concern for the public will be forgotten by the union. Not saying DOO is right or wrong though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite possibly as it is usually policy to retreat and alert the police, controls and the next station. The staff would probably encourage vulnerable passengers out of the way, to safety if it's possible.
The guard would also hold the train at the next station to await help, rather than the driver being unaware and taking the train on without knowing.

It's surely better than no action, and potentially nothing being reported and incidents going unnoticed. The staff ain't the law, and some official presence is better than none and can often be a deterrent especially at night Vs the public know the train is definitely DOO.

But if you're talking passenger physical safety in that manner, you'll gain more from a small team of burly security guards on the problem trains than from one guard on the train all day. One of the arguments for DOO is that staffing can be more specialised and more targetted.

 

[pt_mad]

I am sure that once the required 'pieces of silver' are offered the 'safety' issue and concern for the public will be forgotten by the union. Not saying DOO is right or wrong though.

I genuinely don't think it's about money for the RMT though. The pieces of silver MAY have an impact on how ASLEF members feel. But for the guards union it is genuinely about jobs, methods of operation, their safety, future operation network-wide and terms, rather than a one off payment where they agree to covert to onboard supervisors. Dont think that's very likely tbh.

 

[Moonshot]

Quite possibly as it is usually policy to retreat and alert the police, controls and the next station. The staff would probably encourage vulnerable passengers out of the way, to safety if it's possible.
The guard would also hold the train at the next station to await help, rather than the driver being unaware and taking the train on without knowing.

It's surely better than no action, and potentially nothing being reported and incidents going unnoticed. The staff ain't the law, and some official presence is better than none and can often be a deterrent especially at night Vs the public know the train is definitely DOO.

i was on a metrolink tram the other saturday travelling from Oldham to Rochdale on what was the old heavy rail line operated by Northern. Of course its DOO nowadays from a passengers point of view, but I couldnt help notice the numbers of BTP hopping on and off at regular intervals. This also happens on the regular rail services locally.

 

[Moonshot]

But if you're talking passenger physical safety in that manner, you'll gain more from a small team of burly security guards on the problem trains than from one guard on the train all day. One of the arguments for DOO is that staffing can be more specialised and more targetted.

I would agree with that. What hasnt been mentioned on here is the amount of guards time that is non productive in an average week ( such as travelling pass or on empties etc ). Im sure that would have taken into consideration when all this blew up originally.

 

[northwichcat]

But logically in proportion, if a plane needs 4 cabin crew a train would need one? Rather than none? An emergency could just as easy happen on a train as a plane, it's just that typically people don't feel as vulenrable on a train because they're on the ground. I would argue that a fight is more likely inside a train than a plane. To have no staff there to be able to be alerted is worrying.

Don't forget that due the train being on the ground additional staff can come and assist the on board staff - I think the class 150 which split at Leeds finished with around 8 staff in hi-vis assisting the staff booked to work that service. If a plane did an emergency landing on water each cabin crew member would be responsible for ensuring up to 50 passengers put on life jackets before evacuating and no there wouldn't be 8 people in hi-vis waiting in the sea to assist!

 

[pt_mad]

But if you're talking passenger physical safety in that manner, you'll gain more from a small team of burly security guards on the problem trains than from one guard on the train all day. One of the arguments for DOO is that staffing can be more specialised and more targetted.

I totally get what you're saying but in my mind, once the yocals realise a service is essentially run DOO all the time, with staff showing up on odd trains which can sometimes be predictable trains, it can create a different mindset amongst asbos and non fare payers.

I know services on the Cotswold line which run DOO and the rural stations don't have barriers. If the small train turns up it's DOO, if its the express trains there's a guard. Even non paying scalliwags can work that out in a week.

 

[northwichcat]

Having seen a feasibility study for a totally different area of rail operations I suspect many of the things said to be feasible would only be achievable after a lot of costly adjustments out of all proportion to any benefits to be gained. Feasible if...... and when ............. can be guaranteed first. The one I saw was apparently feasible. That meant the consultant's time, effort and bill could be said to have been justified. Nevertheless, it went straight onto an electronic shelf to gather dust where it will remain until it gets forgotten about or until it's accidentally deleted. I'd have said the costs were understated and the assumptions of outcomes were far too optimistic.

There's talk of managers not wishing to work Saturday trains. There are a lot of staff who are not called managers helping to keep the trains running. Many are not used to working Saturdays and they aren't died in the wool railway people from the north. If they're normal workers they'll be looking at jobs elsewhere and, especially if they're good, will go and get them. Why hang around with all this hassle?

When they do try keeping the wheels turning the day job has to suffer. That can have all sorts of consequences when tasks get behind. Once or twice a month is different from every Saturday. Some dedicated staff will be taking more work home, or trying to do it on lap tops between trips. These factors will bring their toll as fatigue starts to set in. A lot of things that should have been done won't have been, or not done as well as they should. People expecting actions may find they're delayed, or just don't happen. Projects within Northern may suffer, and collateral disruption is unpredictable.

The damage caused by the dispute is greater than the missing trains. That's what happens during periods of industrial action, anywhere.

Don't forget if there's a lot of office based staff who have been on annual leave over the past few weeks there's a high chance there are getting behind with office based work so staff might have to do overtime just to cover the office based work, never mind the acting as guards work.

 

[Moonshot]

I totally get what you're saying but in my mind, once the yocals realise a service is essentially run DOO all the time, with staff showing up on odd trains which can sometimes be predictable trains, it can create a different mindset amongst asbos and non fare payers.

I know services on the Cotswold line which run DOO and the rural stations don't have barriers. If the small train turns up it's DOO, of its the express trains there's a guard. Even non paying scalliwags can work that out in a week.

This is where the RMT should be using hard evidence ( which was a point made at a TSC meeting they attended some time ago ) to back up there argument

 

[Eccles1983]

i was on a metrolink tram the other saturday travelling from Oldham to Rochdale on what was the old heavy rail line operated by Northern. Of course its DOO nowadays from a passengers point of view, but I couldnt help notice the numbers of BTP hopping on and off at regular intervals. This also happens on the regular rail services locally.

Is this another of your fibs? I mean if you are in about as much as you should be as a guard as you claim you surely should be able to tell the difference.

BTP have zero interest in Metrolink as they do not police it. It's GMP's sole responsibility and they have a dedicated team called travel safe.

And happens at regular intervals on heavy rail? Again unless you live in a different world to others then this is also rubbish. At best the in house security chaps travel in a group but I can count on one hand how many BTP officers I have had on my trains in the last 2 years.

Yet again your credibility is rubbished by simple but avoidable facts that a guard should know.

 

[pt_mad]

I would agree with that. What hasnt been mentioned on here is the amount of guards time that is non productive in an average week ( such as travelling pass or on empties etc ). Im sure that would have taken into consideration when all this blew up originally.

Onboard supervisors will also have non productive time. I get the feeling the reasons for desired DOO may be more to do with not having to cancel trains when a guard is unavailable, meaning performance would normally deteriorate, and that replacement OBS grades will be on less favourable terms where there job isn't essential to the railway. So if they ever strike, it doesn't adversely affect operations too much, and if they choose to recruit less of them, it doesn't affect the TOC re cancellations. And in ten years time, their salary and level of terms will probably be less favourable than a guard's. Which of course is less favourable to the economy re quality jobs.

 

[northwichcat]

Onboard supervisors will also have non productive time. I get the feeling the reasons for desired DOO may be more to do with not having to cancel trains when a guard is unavailable, meaning performance would normally deteriorate, and that replacement OBS grades will be on less favourable terms where there job isn't essential to the railway

Unproductive time on a train with wifi, tables and charging points? Don't tell the management, they'll be given a laptop and some computer based tasks to do in their 'down time'.

 

[Moonshot]

Onboard supervisors will also have non productive time. I get the feeling the reasons for desired DOO may be more to do with not having to cancel trains when a guard is unavailable, meaning performance would normally deteriorate, and that replacement OBS grades will be on less favourable terms where there job isn't essential to the railway. So if they ever strike, it doesn't adversely affect operations too much, and if they choose to recruit less of them, it doesn't affect the TOC re cancellations. And in ten years time, their salary and level of terms will probably be less favourable than a guard's. Which of course is less favourable to the economy.

Of course the ability for an absent guard to force a train cancellation is something the passengers do not want.

 

[pt_mad]

This is where the RMT should be using hard evidence ( which was a point made at a TSC meeting they attended some time ago ) to back up there argument

Evidence of number of incidents reported on a DOO train where the public may be frightened to phone the police and there's no customer facing staff to report anything? There's probably going to be more incidents noticed on a guard operated train because they are noticed Vs unnoticed I'd gusss although it's oure speculation there.
Although there may be a fear associated with travelling on a DOO at night over distances Vs one with a guard.

 

[Moonshot]

Unproductive time on a train with wifi, tables and charging points? Don't tell the management, they'll be given a laptop and some computer based tasks to do in their 'down time'.

I can safely tell you that wifi is mostly absent on our trains!!!

 

[Killingworth]

Presumably the DFT knew that when they wrote DCO into the franchise?

I'd not presume anything other than that those who write criteria for any sort of contract try to cover what they've been instructed to cover. That can often leave ambiguity when it comes to application by all those doing the tasks everywhere, for everything, every day, obeying a myriad of safety and other legislative constraints. What's intended and what happens in practice are very often some way apart, even if it's only the time required for full implementation. Feasible, but very hard to implement everwhere for some time, so leave that aside. What the redacted bits say may well be relevant to this!

 

[Moonshot]

Evidence of number of incidents reported on a DOO train where the public may be frightened to phone the police and there's no custoner facing staff to report anything.

Like I said, they need to be producing hard facts and eveidence, hearsay evidence is totally useless. I would say however than anyone intent on causing problems on a train generally couldnt care less if its manned or not.

 

[pt_mad]

Of course the ability for an absent guard to force a train cancellation is something the passengers do not want.

They don't want the train cancelled for any reason. But if a problem kicked off and there was no guard and the driver was unaware they'd soon wish the train had been cancelled.

This thing about big burly security guards on instead of fully trained guards. From every example I've seen, outside security used on the railway has had next to no power and don't know railway procedures or have any route knowledge or experience of what to do in situations, other than asking the baddduns to stop doing it.

Trained revenue staff and those with safety accreditation are far more useful in a wide range of situations imo but obviously I am for the guard in general and I accept others are not.
I would much rather have an RPI with security training than a huge muscley agency security guard Manning a station entrance for example as practically the RPI has all the power of enforcement dispute their lack of size.

 

[Moonshot]

They don't want the train cancelled for any reason. But if a problem kicked off and there was no guard and the driver was unaware they'd soon wish the train had been cancelled.

Its a relatively rare occurence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Like I said, they need to be producing hard facts and eveidence, hearsay evidence is totally useless. I would say however than anyone intent on causing problems on a train generally couldnt care less if its manned or not.

The most recent incident I witnessed (the assault of a guard by a passenger who was not happy at the guard's quite reasonable insistence that they pay for their journey) would not have occurred on a DOO train, for a bit of balance.

 

[pt_mad]

Its a relatively rare occurence.

So are dispatch incidents resulting in injury but the prevntative measures taken are still huge. Prevention against potential onboard incidents should be just as huge imo.

 

[Moonshot]

The most recent incident I witnessed (the assault of a guard by a passenger who was not happy at the guard's quite reasonable insistence that they pay for their journey) would not have occurred on a DOO train, for a bit of balance.

I do know for a fact that the introduction of barriers at a number of what were fare evasion hotspots has had quite a significant impact.

 

[pt_mad]

The most recent incident I witnessed (the assault of a guard by a passenger who was not happy at the guard's quite reasonable insistence that they pay for their journey) would not have occurred on a DOO train, for a bit of balance.

True. But do the public want fellow passengers to pay for their tickets. So many times I've had a passenger point to another train and say nobody checked my ticket it's a waste of time having one. Then there's always a risk when checking tickets as was seen here.

 

[Moonshot]

So are dispatch incidents resulting in injury but the prevntative measures taken are still huge. Prevention against potential onboard incidents should be just as huge imo.

Such as CCTV and help points etc?

 

[Moonshot]

True. But do the public want fellow passengers to pay for their tickets. So many times I've had a passenger point to another train and say nobody checked my ticket it's a waste of time having one. Then there's always a risk when checking tickets as was seen here.

An increasing amount of Northern trains are now doubled up with non gangwayed units. Guards are not allowed to unit hop. There has been some mitigation of that however with a number of revenue staff only being employed. 2 man operation of a train plus the driver does happen

 

[pt_mad]

Such as CCTV and help points etc?

CCTV is more a method of recording incidents as evidence for prosecution rather than being used live to summonds help. And a person will always be better than a help point. A help point won't make my mum feel any safer on a night, shed rather have staff. As would most our mums dad's and grans and grandads I'd guess.

 

[Moonshot]

CCTV is more a method of recording incidents as evidence for prosecution rather than being used live to summonds help. And a person will always be better than a help point. A help point won't make my mum feel any safer on a night, shed rather have staff. As would most our mums dad's and grans and grandads I'd guess.

So swapping the guard for a BTP officer would do the trick in that case. A point already made by some on here.