Arriva Rail North DOO

[pt_mad]

Is this situation any closer to being resolved? What happens when the DOO services are introduced? Have ASLEF members agreed to operate them and couldn't the strike be indefinite if these services are introduced regardless?

 

[Starmill]

Forgive me if I don't know enough from the inside but as I see it the number of train services on strike days has significantly reduced - this doesn't seem to indicate there are more staff booking on.

I think it very clearly has reduced. I don't know why this is, but I wonder if it is part down to the contingency staff being Monday - Friday hours only, for the most part, and thus less able to come to work very early on Saturday morning, week after week.

 

[Starmill]

What happens when the DOO services are introduced? Have ASLEF members agreed to operate them and couldn't the strike be indefinite if these services are introduced regardless?

This is a good question too as it is surely not long now until this will out?

 

[pt_mad]

Yeah I mean if DCO is introduced on some of the network, where planned, and the guards who operate the routes which are remaining guard operated, decide they wish for action to continue, then would there ever be a point where they'd say we'll stop striking now because we've lost?
Surely it's different to Southern in that once ASLEF agreed and services went DCO, an RMT strike won't stop much running. But if a huge pool of guards are to remain safety critical to some of the operation on Northern, then a continuing strike would indeed continue to cancel services and that surely gives the RMT a greater amount of leverage in this dispute?

Although I'm slightly unsure of how things stood on services north of Clapham on Southern as I believe a guard has always been and still is mandatory between Milton Keynes Central and Clapham. So why the RMT lost its leverage when guards are still needed up there and strikes would have continued to cause cancellations, I'm not sure?

 

[IanXC]

Yeah I mean if DCO is introduced on some of the network, where planned, and the guards who operate the routes which are remaining guard operated, decide they wish for action to continue, then would there ever be a point where they'd say we'll stop striking now because we've lost?
Surely it's different to Southern in that once ASLEF agreed and services went DCO, an RMT strike won't stop much running. But if a huge pool of guards are to remain safety critical to some of the operation on Northern, then a continuing strike would indeed continue to cancel services and that surely gives the RMT a greater amount of leverage in this dispute?

Although I'm slightly unsure of how things stood on services north of Clapham on Southern as I believe a guard has always been and still is mandatory between Milton Keynes Central and Clapham. So why the RMT lost its leverage when guards are still needed up there and strikes would have continued to cause cancellations, I'm not sure?

I guess because they can, and do, regularly thin this service group anyway, and even without that it's a relatively small number of Guards to find Contingency Conductor cover for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah I mean if DCO is introduced on some of the network, where planned, and the guards who operate the routes which are remaining guard operated, decide they wish for action to continue, then would there ever be a point where they'd say we'll stop striking now because we've lost?

Isn't there a legal limitation on the extent of strikes for a specific issue before the staff can simply be sacked? I thought there was, and that that was what in the end happened to the Liverpool dockers?

Although I'm slightly unsure of how things stood on services north of Clapham on Southern as I believe a guard has always been and still is mandatory between Milton Keynes Central and Clapham. So why the RMT lost its leverage when guards are still needed up there and strikes would have continued to cause cancellations, I'm not sure?

Reliability on the WLL is atrocious anyway with multiple cancellations on any given day, I doubt anyone would have noticed on what is a fairly niche part of their network. Add to that that there are only 2 or 3 (I forget) guards required per shift which is probably easy to cover from non-strikers.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Yeah I mean if DCO is introduced on some of the network, where planned, and the guards who operate the routes which are remaining guard operated, decide they wish for action to continue, then would there ever be a point where they'd say we'll stop striking now because we've lost?
Surely it's different to Southern in that once ASLEF agreed and services went DCO, an RMT strike won't stop much running. But if a huge pool of guards are to remain safety critical to some of the operation on Northern, then a continuing strike would indeed continue to cancel services and that surely gives the RMT a greater amount of leverage in this dispute?

Although I'm slightly unsure of how things stood on services north of Clapham on Southern as I believe a guard has always been and still is mandatory between Milton Keynes Central and Clapham. So why the RMT lost its leverage when guards are still needed up there and strikes would have continued to cause cancellations, I'm not sure?

Same with the Uckfield line, Guildford peak services and the Tonbridge branch if its a Southeastern driver (however majority of the time Southeastern cover both the driver and guard turns together). The reason was that a large number of the Guards did not really see the point of carrying on, there is reasons why they are needed, its in a signed DOO agreement with ASLEF they will retain guards, and a lot of them moved into driving or other roles. On the coastal depots, for those who remained as Guards it is a different story, they are very much opposed to DOO and is where most of the RMT mantra on Southern originates, all of their routes bar the unelectrified Marshlink with 171s is cleared for DOO and will operate as a DOO service if a 377 is used instead of a 313 even if there is a Guard rostered to work the service meaning they are more at risk. If DOO suitable stock replaces the 313s then they will undoubtably become OBS.

 

[scrapy]

Because driver only operation already exists . And in case you do not realise, track circuit clips have absolutely no use whatsoever in AB areas.

You say you have the easiest job in the world. Quite clearly you are not doing it properly if you really are a guard. Your knowledge of emergency protection is pretty poor. One of a guards responsibilities is to ensure they keep on top of their knowledge of emergency protection. Clearly you find your job so easy because you don't even do the basics.

 

[387star]

Same with the Uckfield line, Guildford peak services and the Tonbridge branch if its a Southeastern driver (however majority of the time Southeastern cover both the driver and guard turns together). The reason was that a large number of the Guards did not really see the point of carrying on, there is reasons why they are needed, its in a signed DOO agreement with ASLEF they will retain guards, and a lot of them moved into driving or other roles. On the coastal depots, for those who remained as Guards it is a different story, they are very much opposed to DOO and is where most of the RMT mantra on Southern originates, all of their routes bar the unelectrified Marshlink with 171s is cleared for DOO and will operate as a DOO service if a 377 is used instead of a 313 even if there is a Guard rostered to work the service meaning they are more at risk. If DOO suitable stock replaces the 313s then they will undoubtably become OBS.

West London line is still affected on strike days but there are other service groups sp it is not such a loss unsure why DOO wasn't cleared to Milton

 

[Overspeed110]

Because driver only operation already exists . And in case you do not realise, track circuit clips have absolutely no use whatsoever in AB areas

So your such an expert and so outstanding in your job you think that track circuit clips are completely useless in all AB areas? You demonstrate a severe lack of understanding.

 

[Eccles1983]

Let me clarify, most of the stuff he claims to have the inside track on in absolute rubbish.

I would seriously disregard his musings. I think he is an afc and not actually a guard as he is repeating messroom nonsense but appear clueless about the role of a guard.

 

[Confused52]

So your such an expert and so outstanding in your job you think that track circuit clips are completely useless in all AB areas? You demonstrate a severe lack of understanding.

Since I genuinely don't know, what effect does putting track circuit clips on an Absolute Block line section have unless you are at the edge of a TCB section and the protection distance happens to extend into the TCB area? I didn't expect there was anything to detect the connection made by the clips.

 

[scrapy]

I think it very clearly has reduced. I don't know why this is, but I wonder if it is part down to the contingency staff being Monday - Friday hours only, for the most part, and thus less able to come to work very early on Saturday morning, week after week.

Mainly. Plus Arriva Trains Wales managers less willing to cover as they know they will no longer be part of Arriva in a few weeks.

 

[LowLevel]

Since I genuinely don't know, what effect does putting track circuit clips on an Absolute Block line section have unless you are at the edge of a TCB section and the protection distance happens to extend into the TCB area? I didn't expect there was anything to detect the connection made by the clips.

Absolute block doesn't mean there aren't track circuits.

Stockport area is track circuited throughout but is still worked by the absolute block regulations.

Hence they always say put the clips down anyway for the time it takes, it may make a difference or it may not but it only takes a second.

 

[Eccles1983]

Ab areas can have areas that have track circuits. Such as IB areas and areas between section and home signals. Also level crossings can be track circuit operated.

The thing ab lacks is continuous track circuits. But to say TC clips are useless is completely wrong. Any guard or driver worth his salt would put TC clips down automatically as a part of emergency protection regardless of the area.

 

[Overspeed110]

Since I genuinely don't know, what effect does putting track circuit clips on an Absolute Block line section have unless you are at the edge of a TCB section and the protection distance happens to extend into the TCB area? I didn't expect there was anything to detect the connection made by the clips.

All IB sections are fully track circuited, some of considerable length. Also the clearing point of a home signal is track circuited, together with lines at and around junctions.
You also have location specific differences such as that mentioned at Stockport.
Yes there would sometimes be no gain in putting TC clips down in some parts of an AB area, but the regulations state you must do, regardless of the signalling system. Also TCB lines with axle counters would not detect TC clips.
In times of emergency they could make all the difference.
So, to quote the expert "Absolutely no use whatsoever in AB areas" ?
I don't think so.

 

[Tomnick]

Since I genuinely don't know, what effect does putting track circuit clips on an Absolute Block line section have unless you are at the edge of a TCB section and the protection distance happens to extend into the TCB area? I didn't expect there was anything to detect the connection made by the clips.

It's a fair question, and to add to what others have (correctly) stated, putting track circuit clips down in an AB area will, if the line's track-circuited at that point*, almost always return the signal in rear to danger if it's a colour-light signal. Conversely, there are a few places on TCB lines where the signal in rear is a semaphore signal, so although the signalman will have a track circuit showing occupied (which he might not realise immediately) it won't replace the signal to danger, and of course they won't do anything at all on a TCB line with axle counters.

Completely contrary to Moonshot's bold statement that TCOCs are absolutely no use whatsoever in AB areas.

* - at most locations nowadays and certainly everywhere that I've worked, throughout 'station limits', the berth track in rear of the home signal and the entirety of the IB section and overlap.

 

[pt_mad]

Another question, have ASLEF agreed to DCO in principle on Northern and if not, how will it ever be introduced if they don't?

 

[northwichcat]

Mainly. Plus Arriva Trains Wales managers less willing to cover as they know they will no longer be part of Arriva in a few weeks.

Which requires a rethink on Northern's part of how they provide strike day services. Buxton almost gets as many services as the franchise spec requires on a normal day for most of a strike day (note the franchise spec only requires the second service to go as far as New Mills Newtown) while the 199 bus provides a regular alternative to the train, while other lines get no service when no regular bus services duplicate the route.

 

[Tomnick]

It's a good debate, either way, and healthy debate relies on participants not bringing absolute wibble to the table ("TCOCs are absolutely no use whatsoever in AB areas"). You've shown that you have a very poor understanding of the operational aspects of the role, and the railway generally, and that discredits pretty much everything that you post, no matter how much you try to dress yourself up as the most knowledgeable chap in the parish.

 

[scrapy]

Since I genuinely don't know, what effect does putting track circuit clips on an Absolute Block line section have unless you are at the edge of a TCB section and the protection distance happens to extend into the TCB area? I didn't expect there was anything to detect the connection made by the clips.

AB refers to the type of signalling and doesn't exclusively mean an area isn't track circuited. Its a bit of a myth that AB isnt never track circuited in the way some people think AB means it must be semaphore signals whereas there are lots of colour light signals in AB areas. Many AB areas have seen signal boxes close and track circuited intermediate blocks put in. Other areas of AB have also been track circuited when it was anticipated it would be changed to TCB such as for example parts of Stockport (which you'd think Moonshot would know about if he is a Manchester Vic based guard as he would sign it?).

 

[pt_mad]

Can anyone say whether ASLEF have agreed to DCO on Northern?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Does the apparent progress on Merseyrail bode well?

 

[Tomnick]

Can anyone say whether ASLEF have agreed to DCO on Northern?

To the best of my knowledge, they haven’t yet been consulted on the matter. I doubt any agreement will be readily forthcoming when the time comes either.

 

[pt_mad]

To the best of my knowledge, they haven’t yet been consulted on the matter. I doubt any agreement will be readily forthcoming when the time comes either.

That may be the key to a guard victory right there then.

 

[Tomnick]

That may be the key to a guard victory right there then.

I suspect that’s exactly why ASLEF haven’t been consulted, and won’t be until the last possible minute. I wouldn’t be surprised if the DfT were plotting a way to force through the changes, of course.

 

[Bromley boy]

AB refers to the type of signalling and doesn't exclusively mean an area isn't track circuited. Its a bit of a myth that AB isnt never track circuited in the way some people think AB means it must be semaphore signals whereas there are lots of colour light signals in AB areas. Many AB areas have seen signal boxes close and track circuited intermediate blocks put in. Other areas of AB have also been track circuited when it was anticipated it would be changed to TCB such as for example parts of Stockport (which you'd think Moonshot would know about if he is a Manchester Vic based guard as he would sign it?).

Indeed.

Even in areas with axle counters, where TCOCs are completely useless, the procedure is still to put them down anyway since you wouldn’t know exactly where the border was.

 

[Starmill]

Every route except one in Middlesbrough is earmarked for doo.

How do you know? I thought the whole point was that this has not been decided because no discussion has taken place. Or is this just something you suspect?

 

[Eccles1983]

I'm on the payroll.

I KNOW MORE THAN YOU SO DONT QUESTION ME.

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*was told by a high up chap in the union covering the talks.

 

[Killingworth]

We have to be careful, it's not like a football match where either side may win, but it could be a draw. It seems we have to have a winner and a loser. Really? Do we?

Starting position for TOC, all trains DOO. Starting position for union, no trains DOO - or any fudge on definitions. Some form of DOO will happen on some routes, eventually, for a variety of reasons. In private that must be accepted by both sides, but where do the lines get drawn? How can faces be saved, and both sides can claim victory? How can both avoid defeat?

In the meantime passengers and all grades of Northern's staff are put through varying degrees of hell to achieve very little real change for the next 5-10 years. It's a ritual that's gone on a very long time in industrial relations. Been there, got the t-shirts. In 10-20 years the world will have moved on - it always does.

But I'd repeat what I said in a previous post, it's a canny move by RMT to go for Saturday strikes when those who don't normally man trains would normally be at leisure. If they give up their Saturdays they'll be wanting time off in lieu, and some will leave. Which means that if anyone wants to contact them they won't get a quick reply. Other areas of the business may suffer long term damage that can't be quantified. Saturday services will be hard to man unless RMT regular train crew members break ranks.

But I know nothing, and admit it.

I'm only a passenger with a life long interest in rail travel who can't always get to places on Northern routes when I want to without using the car - or another TOC's services. And I'm reminded that I have a nice car, which can get me door almost to door, at a minute's notice!