Arriva Rail North DOO

[Andyh82]

There has just been an item on Calendar, ahead of the next strike.

It was saying that Disability campaigners were in favour of the strike action as with only a driver being on board the train they wouldn’t be able to travel anymore, especially as many Northern stations are unstaffed as well, as nobody would be able to deploy the ramps to get them on and off.

Then there was a bit from a commuter saying that when a train is cancelled they struggle to get on never mind a person in a wheelchair, and a statement from Northern saying they are modernising the railway.

That was a summary of the situation to anyone watching Calendar tonight.

 

[Eccles1983]

Let me put you absolutely 100% straight so as there is no ambiguity whatsoever. The small number of tub thumping union members for Northern on here are in no way representative of the work place. A second ballot would kill this strike stone dead in its tracks. Make sure you understand that and it is crystal clear in your mind.

I disagree.

You seem to have positioned yourself as chief spokesperson for the silent majority according to you.

However, I will repeat for clarity. I have not met a single guard who verifies your views, and I speak to a lot in Piccadilly, Leeds, Victoria, Wigan and Liverpool. Admittedly not all of them but a fair few.

Aside from 1 chap in the central region I don't know anyone who would even align themselves with you.

 

[Moonshot]

I disagree.

You seem to have positioned yourself as chief spokesperson for the silent majority according to you.

However, I will repeat for clarity. I have not met a single guard who verifies your views, and I speak to a lot in Piccadilly, Leeds, Victoria, Wigan and Liverpool. Admittedly not all of them but a fair few.

Aside from 1 chap in the central region I don't know anyone who would even align themselves with you.

Disagree all you want, it's not as if this thread actually has any influence or meaning at the coalface of Northern operations. A second ballot would easily sort the issue out however.

 

[Eccles1983]

There is no need for a second ballot.

The first was legitimate and legal. Just because you don't like how it went does not mean it needs re-running.

Pop into a branch meeting and if enough people agree with you then it can be proposed. Otherwise much like your musings on here it carries no weight.

But my interjection was to provide balance to you trying to lord it over others on here claiming you know not only the inner workings of the RMT but ASLEF as well.

You don't. Most of the stuff you have put relating to drivers and any sort of pay or conditions are false .

 

[Bromley boy]

Disagree all you want, it's not as if this thread actually has any influence or meaning at the coalface of Northern operations. A second ballot would easily sort the issue out however.

Didn’t you post previously that the job you (apparently) do could be done by someone earning £20k per year?

You have some kind of agenda... Maybe you’ve gone driving? If so you should keep your thoughts to yourself for your own sake - bloody hell if you aired views like yours in my (DOO) depot you’d find yourself on your back within 30 seconds...

 

[OnlyM]

I like Labour I like what they stand for they’re for the many and not the few. Scabs all follow the tories and they’re all the same weird little mouses who are scared to say anything to anyone. If you don’t support your colleagues and you don’t support jobs and will openly break Pickett lines and get others to join you then you’re scum

 

[LOL The Irony]

I like Labour I like what they stand for they’re for the many and not the few. Scabs all follow the tories and they’re all the same weird little mouses who are scared to say anything to anyone. If you don’t support your colleagues and you don’t support jobs and will openly break Pickett lines and get others to join you then you’re scum

I can sit here all day, ripping into the tories and the commies or calling the lot of you worse than children. But I can also say go back to the rmt and tell them instead of having a picket line one strike day, give Grayling a home visit at the crack of dawn...

 

[Bromley boy]

I like Labour I like what they stand for they’re for the many and not the few. Scabs all follow the tories and they’re all the same weird little mouses who are scared to say anything to anyone. If you don’t support your colleagues and you don’t support jobs and will openly break Pickett lines and get others to join you then you’re scum

I’m a paid up Tory, and a paid up aslef member.

How does that float your boat?!

 

[OnlyM]

I can sit here all day, ripping into the tories and the commies or calling the lot of you worse than children. But I can also say go back to the rmt and tell them instead of having a picket line one strike day, give Grayling a home visit at the crack of dawn...

I like the idea of the last part of your message.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I’m a paid up Tory, and a paid up aslef member.

How does that float your boat?!

Torpedoes it but throws it an inflatable life raft

 

[LOL The Irony]

I like the idea of the last part of your message.

I'm pretty sure his alarm clock can be replaced with 2 dings on the bell .

 

[OnlyM]

I’m a paid up Tory, and a paid up aslef member.

How does that float your boat?!

Don’t like tory’s and the fact you’re a Tory is surprising by your comments. But i am only interested in the two individuals I have replied about after reading there comments in this thread. It’s wound me up just the sheer arrogance of these people who think it’s acceptable **** on there colleagues

 

[Bromley boy]

Torpedoes it but throws it an inflatable life raft

I slashed that with a Stanley knife before throwing it into the water...

 

[Killingworth]

Passengers are fed up with this. It goes back years. I'm sure managers and railway people are too. It's gone on too long.

The RMT was balloting in 2015 and had to back down because their action ran up against industrial relations legislation, see; http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/breakdown-in-industrial-relations--northern-rail080715/ and; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33454362 They've clearly done their homework and had good legal advice for the current campaign.

Neither side is winning. Ideally a route by route review is necessary. My line is the Hope Valley where we're without any Northern trains every day there's a strike. Passengers are all for a safety trained member of staff in the carriage in case of emergency. With tunnels of 3.5 and 2 miles we feel nervous, especially when older users recall the day in 1961 when a passenger train derailed in Totley Tunnel and the locomotive carried on to exit minus coaches. Fortunately nothing was going the other way. Earlier an unbraked freight had piled up near Totley totally blocking both tracks, and again nothing was going the other way. More recently a train stopped in the tunnel with what turned out to be a minor fire, but the smoke was enough to cause fear.

The railway is much safer today, however emergencies and accidents are by their nature unpredictable.

On a recent journey we asked the young conductor what he'd do if we were stranded 2 miles into Totley tunnel. His reply wasn't encouraging. He wouldn't know how far we were in, or which way would be best to go to summon help. He was unaware that there is a large (wet!) 'cave' beside the central air shaft that could be a refuge, or what emergency communications there may be within the tunnel.

Conductors are often slow to open doors, so driver opening would speed things up. With 2, and at most 4, car trains driver closing shouldn't be too difficult. Some conductors are pro-active in collecting fares and checking tickets. Others are not. Much revenue is being missed, especially towards the ungated Sheffield end, but also in mid journey. The provision of TVMs won't help much if there's nobody aboard to check who has a ticket. When I recently commented to a conductor about the lack of a barrier at Sheffield he was unaware that was the case. Working from Manchester he only had 5 minutes to turn round in Sheffield and had never had time to get away from Platform 2C!

Please could the 2 sides review our line, confirm that a fully trained second crew member must be aboard all trains and collect all possible revenue? If technology can be made available to allow drivers to open doors that must be agreed. If all can agree safe driver operation of door closing it might make a small time saving, but it's not the most critical issue. The grade, title and salary of the person inter-facing with passengers is not their direct concern.

Passengers are aware that Northern have said "We want to talk about modernising with RMT, guaranteeing jobs and pay for our 1,300 conductors for at least the next eight years, until the end of our franchise. The more strike action continues the harder it is for Northern to give long-term assurances and commitments."

So please, can we agree that Hope Valley line trains will carry two cew members for the rest of the franchise and get services fully restored on our line at least?

I've pointed out before that alternative public transport isn't realistic. The suggestion for Edale is impractical* "If you are planning to travel from Edale Station on 01 September 2018, please check the information below for details of strike services.
Details for travel on 01 September 2018
— Alternative Transport
Local Bus: Make your way to Hope Castleton Road Church to catch the 273/274 to Sheffield Interchange"

For a start it's about 4-5 miles to Hope, walking along a narrow country road, or over a small mountain (and if you're going over the mountain I'd head the shorter distance to catch the same bus in Castleton). If you have a car you won't be wanting to catch a slow bus, and very unlikely to catch a 273/274 as the most frequent services from Hope are the 271/272 to Sheffield - of limited help to get to Manchester.

To walk over the small mountain you'd pass Lose Hill, which is where we are at present, with little Hope of a solution. Win Hill is across the valley, a journey we seem unable to achieve. Look at the map.



It's high time this dispute was resolved. All the name calling is juvenile irrelevance to the central issues.



*I told Northern 2 months ago that they were giving the wrong bus numbers so that doesn't inspire confidence!

 

[Bromley boy]

Don’t like tory’s and the fact you’re a Tory is surprising by your comments. But i am only interested in the two individuals I have replied about after reading there comments in this thread. It’s wound me up just the sheer arrogance of these people who think it’s acceptable **** on there colleagues

I agree with you there.

 

[waterboo]

There will be no careers within the railway if you carry on being a scab and having the views YOU do about this “modernisation” this is the whole point people like you attempting to defend your selfish actions of not supporting peoples jobs who have families to feed and keep roofs over there heads and enjoy there lives because likes of you scabbing and telling your other little mouses all this brainwash Tory about modernisation!! Put yourself in there shoes that theyre going to lose there jobs and you’re happy sat in the driving seat driving along not a worry in the world because theyre not after you yet!! 40 years time or less when the next phase of MODERNISATION AS you call it comes in for DRIVERLESS trains and ITS your job on the line your just going to let them take it? I know what your reply is yes you are because you’re a lieing arrogant person. Scab!!

Calm down!! Quite frankly, the only person LYING here is you. There is, and will always be plenty of careers in the railway, but it is delusional to think that those jobs are going to stay the same. The Northern guard role in its current form is not fit for purpose. Call me arrogant, but I think you equally guilty, if you are not able to see this yourself!!

 

[muz379]

SCABS are nasty vile people who step all over there “colleagues” and team up and try get other people to follow them like sheep!! All these newbies... no solidarity they are all sell outs I don’t care if you don’t like my message it’s the truth

I think its wrong to categorise "newbies" in such a way . Many of the new entrants to the industry I have experience with are fully behind the dispute and are the ones actually supporting it by manning picket lines . And clearly given the growth in compliments at bigger depots if the newbies had all voted against strike action we would not have got such a clear and strong mandate for it from the ballot .

Actually my experience is that some of the some of the older hands are the ones that dont really see it as their dispute , some of them think because they retire before the end of the franchise it wont effect them . Some of the comments I have heard from 'men' with years in are surprising to say the least . Sure they might not cross picket lines because of historical connotations but they also on the other hand wont man the picket line and deep down dont support the action . Of course there are exceptions to that rule . But the main point of my post was that to characterise all "newbies" just because of the actions of a few who might not even be new entrants to the industry is unhelpful

 

[ComUtoR]

I’m a paid up Tory, and a paid up aslef member

Love the way you capitalized Tory but not ASLEF....

However, I have found, in life; that not everyone is black or white. A person may vote for a particular party but still align themselves to the polar opposite to what they represent in other things. Many of our Brothers align themselves to the Conservative party but are fully paid up Union members and are very vocal on Union issues. I think part of the reason why most political parties moved towards the middle is because they know that people are more selective in their views and ideals. The modern viewpoint is certainly an educated one. I think there is a lot of ignorance when some people only see others as their social label. A 'Tory' must believe and think like X and therefore must act like X. The same where there is an ignorant belief that all Union members are Labour supporters. There is a word for those kind of people, there are many words, but none polite enough to post.

 

[Bromley boy]

Love the way you capitalized Tory but not ASLEF....

However, I have found, in life; that not everyone is black or white. A person may vote for a particular party but still align themselves to the polar opposite to what they represent in other things. Many of our Brothers align themselves to the Conservative party but are fully paid up Union members and are very vocal on Union issues. I think part of the reason why most political parties moved towards the middle is because they know that people are more selective in their views and ideals. The modern viewpoint is certainly an educated one. I think there is a lot of ignorance when some people only see others as their social label. A 'Tory' must believe and think like X and therefore must act like X. The same where there is an ignorant belief that all Union members are Labour supporters. There is a word for those kind of people, there are many words, but none polite enough to post.

Totally agree!

 

[woodmally]

As an aside has anyone read the joint statement from the Merseyrail talks. They can keep the guard but need more money to do it. So if we have the same at Northern fares will go up.

 

[scrapy]

As an aside has anyone read the joint statement from the Merseyrail talks. They can keep the guard but need more money to do it. So if we have the same at Northern fares will go up.

According to Northern managers it has nothing to do with money or saving money so having said that I don't see how they can use that as an excuse to put fares up.

 

[Moonshot]

As an aside has anyone read the joint statement from the Merseyrail talks. They can keep the guard but need more money to do it. So if we have the same at Northern fares will go up.

No guard is actually being made redundant and are guaranteed current terms and conditions until end of franchise. So the cost of salaries will have already been priced into the bid.

Fares generally go up every year regardless, and 50% of the fares basket is regulated with no market forces acting on them

 

[Killingworth]

Sticks and stones last night, but apology accepted. Many can't understand how it's taking so long to resolve this dispute.............. I can having been involved with my union for almost 30 years! That was up to chair of a national committee in another industry where top management could be just as stubborn as here! We thought we won, but 20 years later that union's no longer recognised. Played it too hard too often.

One thing I learned was that no matter how well informed I thought I was, hindsight often reveals surprises. Like assuming an area was militant when it wasn't, and finding a battle was won after local managers took actions that incited normally moderate members. Upcoming technology was only partially known to us, but was to our employers. Legislation has changed.

From a union perspective RMT have a ballot mandate which remains valid until they decide the dispute is ended or they hold another. If they did, no matter how strong a majority voted for strike action, it seems it would only cover another 6 months. Unless their members make it clear that they want another ballot they'd be ill advised to hold one. The result can be swung either way by events. My conversations with guards/conductors are limited, but I've heard no suggestion they wish to give in. Far from it, they suggest every intention to stick it out as long as it takes. It's unlikely to be as clear cut as some may imply. There will be major differences between locations, routes, age groups and length of service and that's well reflected on this forum.

It's blindingly obvious that both sides are digging in for a long haul? So we're led to believe, but the dam will eventually break. Neither side will want to be seen to blink first. That's where ACAS should come in - with maybe a little help behind the scenes from the DfT, deniable, of course.

 

[Bromley boy]

Sticks and stones last night, but apology accepted. Many can't understand how it's taking so long to resolve this dispute.............. I can having been involved with my union for almost 30 years! That was up to chair of a national committee in another industry where top management could be just as stubborn as here! We thought we won, but 20 years later that union's no longer recognised. Played it too hard too often.

One thing I learned was that no matter how well informed I thought I was, hindsight often reveals surprises. Like assuming an area was militant when it wasn't, and finding a battle was won after local managers took actions that incited normally moderate members. Upcoming technology was only partially known to us, but was to our employers. Legislation has changed.

From a union perspective RMT have a ballot mandate which remains valid until they decide the dispute is ended or they hold another. If they did, no matter how strong a majority voted for strike action, it seems it would only cover another 6 months. Unless their members make it clear that they want another ballot they'd be ill advised to hold one. The result can be swung either way by events. My conversations with guards/conductors are limited, but I've heard no suggestion they wish to give in. Far from it, they suggest every intention to stick it out as long as it takes. It's unlikely to be as clear cut as some may imply. There will be major differences between locations, routes, age groups and length of service and that's well reflected on this forum.

It's blindingly obvious that both sides are digging in for a long haul? So we're led to believe, but the dam will eventually break. Neither side will want to be seen to blink first. That's where ACAS should come in - with maybe a little help behind the scenes from the DfT, deniable, of course.

Fair play to you mate - excellent post.

 

[woodmally]

Sticks and stones last night, but apology accepted. Many can't understand how it's taking so long to resolve this dispute.............. I can having been involved with my union for almost 30 years! That was up to chair of a national committee in another industry where top management could be just as stubborn as here! We thought we won, but 20 years later that union's no longer recognised. Played it too hard too often.

One thing I learned was that no matter how well informed I thought I was, hindsight often reveals surprises. Like assuming an area was militant when it wasn't, and finding a battle was won after local managers took actions that incited normally moderate members. Upcoming technology was only partially known to us, but was to our employers. Legislation has changed.

From a union perspective RMT have a ballot mandate which remains valid until they decide the dispute is ended or they hold another. If they did, no matter how strong a majority voted for strike action, it seems it would only cover another 6 months. Unless their members make it clear that they want another ballot they'd be ill advised to hold one. The result can be swung either way by events. My conversations with guards/conductors are limited, but I've heard no suggestion they wish to give in. Far from it, they suggest every intention to stick it out as long as it takes. It's unlikely to be as clear cut as some may imply. There will be major differences between locations, routes, age groups and length of service and that's well reflected on this forum.

It's blindingly obvious that both sides are digging in for a long haul? So we're led to believe, but the dam will eventually break. Neither side will want to be seen to blink first. That's where ACAS should come in - with maybe a little help behind the scenes from the DfT, deniable, of course.

An excellent post and it proves a very worrying point. The RMT are refusing a second ballot as they might lose. Now who would they lose too. Their own members. They are surely there to benefit their members interests and if the members want to end the strikes then why not. Or do they have that much disdane for democracy.

 

[Killingworth]

An excellent post and it proves a very worrying point. The RMT are refusing a second ballot as they might lose. Now who would they lose too. Their own members. They are surely there to benefit their members interests and if the members want to end the strikes then why not. Or do they have that much disdane for democracy.

They might lose, but they might get a stronger vote to continue. Why would they wish to throw away a mandate until the end of the franchise for one of 6 months? What might force their arm would be if enough members were clamouring for a ballot, or significant numbers were resigning from the union and signing in on strike days.

If things are as you say that may be about to happen.

I recall winning a battle backed by a work to rule and ban on overtime. The employers weren't aware that the areas taking the strongest action were very close to giving in. They'd worked themselves ragged trying to maintain maximum customer service levels and comply with the union instructions.

The employer discovered a lot of rules it no longer needed, and procedures were changed so as to reduce the need for future overtime!

I'm not so sure who really won! They probably learned a lot that needed tightening up to save more than the settlement cost them.

 

[uxm]

So will the 195 directly replace the pacers? i.e same routes as pacers?

 

[Killingworth]

So will the 195 directly replace the pacers? i.e same routes as pacers?

Very unlikely! Even older refurbished 150s and similar most likely.

 

[LOL The Irony]

So will the 195 directly replace the pacers? i.e same routes as pacers?

150's & 156's are replacing pacers, which in turn are being replaced by 158's,,170's and the Civity's.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I’m a paid up Tory, and a paid up aslef member.

How does that float your boat?!

I’ll go one better than that...

Paid up Conservative Party and RMT member, albeit opted out of the political fund for obvious reasons, and I’ve been out on strike (in the rail industry) twice in my 14 years so far, I’d vote yes to strike and walk out the door again if I thought it was the inky course of action.