Arriva Rail North DOO

[Shaw S Hunter]

Northern can guarantee whatever they want that the franchise agreement does not say they cannot do.

The franchise agreement does not say that Northern cannot guarantee a free pink party hat with a bobble on top and a red ribbon top to every passenger.

Northern can therefore guarantee a free pink party hat with a bobble on top and a red ribbon top to every passenger.

The franchise agreement does not say that Northern cannot guarantee a second member of safety critical staff on every train.

Northern can therefore guarantee a second member of safety critical staff on every train.

What's more this could be done by a simple change to the drivers' contracts stipulating that their role does not include any responsibility for monitoring the PTI at any platform in use by the public. Note that the PTI is only a genuine issue once doors have been opened so this would not rule out driver open, guard close. If ASLEF were to insist on such a clause then I wonder how much Northern or the DfT could actually do about it. Note that, despite Moonshot's protestations, Northern drivers do feel very strongly about this subject.

 

[yorksrob]

I see that Northern have put up posters informing of all six strike days, so clearly no one seems to be in a hurry to resolve the issue.

Government compensating TOC's for strike days seems to be a perverse incentive for them not to get their finger out and reach an agreement.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I see that Northern have put up posters informing of all six strike days, so clearly no one seems to be in a hurry to resolve the issue.

Government compensating TOC's for strike days seems to be a perverse incentive for them not to get their finger out and reach an agreement.

They put up posters informing us of the strike day in July that was subsequently called off so I don't think having posters up is proof the strikes are definitely going ahead.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

What's more this could be done by a simple change to the drivers' contracts stipulating that their role does not include any responsibility for monitoring the PTI at any platform in use by the public. Note that the PTI is only a genuine issue once doors have been opened so this would not rule out driver open, guard close. If ASLEF were to insist on such a clause then I wonder how much Northern or the DfT could actually do about it. Note that, despite Moonshot's protestations, Northern drivers do feel very strongly about this subject.

We know Northern drivers feel strongly about it the same as Southern drivers and probably every other company involved in this dispute, problem is DOO has been specified in the contract and the government will not be backing down, not now, the dispute is too far gone at this stage. I do not understand where this view is that ASLEF and RMT can demand whatever they want when its not that easy in reality. The company will simply play their old tricks, which is imposing a contract, either you sign it or you are effectively making yourself redundant. The unions will be treading carefully, because the problem with that is that they can decide your terms and conditions. ARN is a traditional franchise so they will be happy to make any savings they possibly can, unlike GTR which is all costed and paid for by the government.

 

[woodmally]

What's more this could be done by a simple change to the drivers' contracts stipulating that their role does not include any responsibility for monitoring the PTI at any platform in use by the public. Note that the PTI is only a genuine issue once doors have been opened so this would not rule out driver open, guard close. If ASLEF were to insist on such a clause then I wonder how much Northern or the DfT could actually do about it. Note that, despite Moonshot's protestations, Northern drivers do feel very strongly about this subject.

If Northern Drivers feel so strongly about it why arnt they striking? This is half the problem. If RMT and Aslef got together the government would at some point have to intervene. Reality is despite your argument that the drivers do feel strongly we have seen no action.

 

[woodmally]

I see that Northern have put up posters informing of all six strike days, so clearly no one seems to be in a hurry to resolve the issue.

Government compensating TOC's for strike days seems to be a perverse incentive for them not to get their finger out and reach an agreement.

The posters are up as RMT have announced strikes in advance so they have warning thats all. There are still actions behind the scenes.

 

[Carlisle]

What's more this could be done by a simple change to the drivers' contracts stipulating that their role does not include any responsibility for monitoring the PTI at any platform in use by the public. Note that the PTI is only a genuine issue once doors have been opened so this would not rule out driver open, guard close. If ASLEF were to insist on such a clause t.

Why would northern sign so restrictive a deal, that they clearly and knowingly could have agreed from the outset and prevented the strike ballot even taking place .The recent GA deal at least shows things have moved forward a bit, since the initial GWR, Southern and Scotrail disputes, where drivers refused to negotiate on door closing

 

[PR1Berske]

I see that Northern have put up posters informing of all six strike days, so clearly no one seems to be in a hurry to resolve the issue.

Government compensating TOC's for strike days seems to be a perverse incentive for them not to get their finger out and reach an agreement.

I think there's no real conspiracies to be found in "rail franchise holder informs passengers of potential future disruption."

 

[northwichcat]

The franchise agreement does not say that Northern cannot guarantee a second member of safety critical staff on every train.

Northern can therefore guarantee a second member of safety critical staff on every train.

They can but it the underlying question is whether a cancelled train is better than no train in the event of staff shortages. Just because the RMT think it is doesn't mean Northern should guarantee it, however much the RMT walk out over it.

 

[northwichcat]

I see that Northern have put up posters informing of all six strike days, so clearly no one seems to be in a hurry to resolve the issue.

Government compensating TOC's for strike days seems to be a perverse incentive for them not to get their finger out and reach an agreement.

They have to warn passengers at the earliest opportunity, otherwise passengers will complain. Most passengers don't go on the RMT website to look for strike dates and the guards aren't telling passengers they are walking out when they make on board announcements.

 

[Eccles1983]

If Northern Drivers feel so strongly about it why arnt they striking? This is half the problem. If RMT and Aslef got together the government would at some point have to intervene. Reality is despite your argument that the drivers do feel strongly we have seen no action.

Aslef cannot decide to strike yet. They have no basis for being in dispute as they have not been approached with anything that could cause a dispute.

Any union sanctioned industrial action woulf end up im court - and having taking a decent sized financial hit the last time they did something like this aslef are not going to be bitten twice.

It's not really an opinion but fact that drivers feel strongly about this subject. Do not assume that the lack of action is down to drivers not wanting to do anything. The company will not at any point discuss doo with aslef in talks as they know the second they do its out on the table and a dispute is imminent.

 

[Robertj21a]

If Northern Drivers feel so strongly about it why arnt they striking? This is half the problem. If RMT and Aslef got together the government would at some point have to intervene. Reality is despite your argument that the drivers do feel strongly we have seen no action.

Surely, as with Southern, the drivers know only too well that they'll do whatever is required - eventually - in exchange for increased pay.

It's not just about safety.

 

[northwichcat]

If Northern Drivers feel so strongly about it why arnt they striking? This is half the problem. If RMT and Aslef got together the government would at some point have to intervene. Reality is despite your argument that the drivers do feel strongly we have seen no action.

There is no advantage to drivers in ASLEF going to Northern and making a fuss about a plan to introduce DCO trains at the end of 2019. They'll happily sit back and wait for Northern to approach them and if Northern leave it too late it's Northern's target that is missed not ASLEF's.

The RMT presumably saw the Northern franchise agreement as meaning potentially only 9 years to call strikes in before the guard role is done away with completely and they like long running disputes.

 

[furnessvale]

If Northern Drivers feel so strongly about it why arnt they striking? This is half the problem. If RMT and Aslef got together the government would at some point have to intervene. Reality is despite your argument that the drivers do feel strongly we have seen no action.

Why would the government intervene?

I amazes me that people on this forum believe that, outside London, railways have any relevance to the transport needs of the UK. By far the cheapest option for the government would be to watch the railways wither, with the convenient excuse, "it wasn't us what dun it, it was the unions".

 

[woodmally]

Surely, as with Southern, the drivers know only too well that they'll do whatever is required - eventually - in exchange for increased pay.

It's not just about safety.

I agree with you. My question was aimed at those on here that for some reason think that the drivers are against DOO and are deeply uhappy about it and will at some point take up action. I dont believe it either they will just accept more pay and be done with it. The evidence is plain to see. A combined RMT Aslef strike would have put this issue to bed but Aslef are not interested.

 

[Moonshot]

I agree with you. My question was aimed at those on here that for some reason think that the drivers are against DOO and are deeply uhappy about it and will at some point take up action. I dont believe it either they will just accept more pay and be done with it. The evidence is plain to see. A combined RMT Aslef strike would have put this issue to bed but Aslef are not interested.

Indeed, and as I pointed out in an earlier post, Northern Drivers are currently on a roll with regards to pay and conditions just recently. ASLEF have been in negotiation with Northern for a good while over a whole range of issues in recognition of the fact that major changes are coming in the form of brand new trains and routes which will require a bit of change in the current working practices.

 

[Overspeed110]

ASLEF can not get involved in this dispute until officially approached by Northern about their plans for DOO.

Then it will go down the route of fail to agree, then ballot, then hopefully strike action, then things might start happening.

There will be some Northern drivers who would sign up to anything for some extra money, but to those who think the vast majority will roll over and accept DOO without a fight, think again.

 

[northwichcat]

ASLEF can not get involved in this dispute until officially approached by Northern about their plans for DOO.

You mean they won't get involved until they are forced to. The RMT weren't approached by Northern, they demanded talks with Northern after seeing the ITT for the franchise (never mind the actual franchise agreement agreed between DfT, Rail North and the winning bidder.)

 

[Bromley boy]

Indeed, and as I pointed out in an earlier post, Northern Drivers are currently on a roll with regards to pay and conditions just recently. ASLEF have been in negotiation with Northern for a good while over a whole range of issues in recognition of the fact that major changes are coming in the form of brand new trains and routes which will require a bit of change in the current working practices.

What a knowledgeable individual you are.

Not only do you speak for all northern guards, it turns out you are the voice of all the drivers as well!

 

[Moonshot]

What a knowledgeable individual you are.

Not only do you speak for all northern guards, it turns out you are the voice of all the drivers as well!

Obviously far more knowledgeable than you. Of course this forum has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on this dispute

 

[Killingworth]

Why would the government intervene?

I amazes me that people on this forum believe that, outside London, railways have any relevance to the transport needs of the UK. By far the cheapest option for the government would be to watch the railways wither, with the convenient excuse, "it wasn't us what dun it, it was the unions".

This may be a little extreme, however there's truth in there. Even in London the position of rail isn't as strong as some like to think, especially if recent passenger number trends are maintained. I've just travelled the length of the country by road, as well as making some longer distance rail journeys. There were crowded trains, but there were a lot more people travelling by cars.

I recall in the mid 1970s strikes hit London rail commuters. Life carried on. I still have a copy of an old map from my employers' emergency transport control room where they planned and directed special coach services to get staff into London from all points of the compass. The greater numbers and wider dispersal today would make it more difficult, but given time it could be done.

No stopping services are to be provided to Hope Valley line stations through the Peak District on Saturdays until October. Previously the same has happened in mid-week, although East Midlands helpfully stopped a few extra services. Life carries on. The roads are imperceptibly busier, and some visitors stay away. Commuters will use their cars or make alternative arrangements. Those altenative arrangements will prove better for some and they may not return to rail - as seems to have happened in the south.

Stone and cement trains get more reliable and quicker paths, so rail does have a place. As long as the dispute is limited to Northern the longer distance services of other operators can better keep to timetabled paths, freed from Northern congestion. We should be trying to woo more traffic to railways, shouldn't we? Maybe it's a cunning plan to consolidate on longer distance routes?

The strength of these forums is the amount of very detailed knowledge of the rail industry provided by present and former rail employees and railway enthusiasts of all ages. The weakness is the very same. Opinions here are not representative of those paying to use the services day in and day out.

I suspect the average rail passenger is at least a generation younger than the average forum contributor. Nostalgia and entrenched attitudes aren't necessarily in tune with future passenger needs.

(I know, many here are travelling on a variety of passes issued to past and present rail people, but that's the point. We're preaching to the converted.)

 

[Bromley boy]

Obviously far more knowledgeable than you. Of course this forum has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on this dispute

I should hope you are, since I don’t work for northern!

However I notice several northern staff on this thread (who will know dozens or scores of other staff members between fhem) have called you out as expressing views that conflict with their experience.

 

[Bromley boy]

I agree with you. My question was aimed at those on here that for some reason think that the drivers are against DOO and are deeply uhappy about it and will at some point take up action. I dont believe it either they will just accept more pay and be done with it. The evidence is plain to see. A combined RMT Aslef strike would have put this issue to bed but Aslef are not interested.

Can ASLEF bring a strike at this point since drivers are not yet being asked to drive DOO services?

 

[furnessvale]

(I know, many here are travelling on a variety of passes issued to past and present rail people, but that's the point. We're preaching to the converted.)

I myself have a retired staff free pass but I find I am increasingly travelling by road even though I love trains.

If I cannot be persuaded to use the train, what chance persuading people who actually have to PAY for the privilege?

 

[387star]

Was on a diverted train last night the OBS was asking each paasenger where they were going as the service was skipping normal stops.. they also held a replacement bus for the service

Anyway overheard a couple saying how important it is to have a guard on board (the title is of little importance)

A train with just a driver can not offer that personal touch .. also you'd need staff at control or stations to remotely deal with issues like ensuring everyone in the train has onward transport or understanding specific needs of those onboard

 

[Moonshot]

I should hope you are, since I don’t work for northern!

However I notice several northern staff on this thread (who will know dozens or scores of other staff members between fhem) have called you out as expressing views that conflict with their experience.

I really couldn't give a monkeys, however at the end of the day, at some point in the not too distant future, drivers will be controlling the doors on northern trains.

 

[yorksrob]

I think there's no real conspiracies to be found in "rail franchise holder informs passengers of potential future disruption."

Well, it would be nice to have some assurance that negotiations are ongoing, given this has been going on for almost a year now and we're seemingly no closer to a resolution.

 

[yorksrob]

This may be a little extreme, however there's truth in there. Even in London the position of rail isn't as strong as some like to think, especially if recent passenger number trends are maintained. I've just travelled the length of the country by road, as well as making some longer distance rail journeys. There were crowded trains, but there were a lot more people travelling by cars.

I recall in the mid 1970s strikes hit London rail commuters. Life carried on. I still have a copy of an old map from my employers' emergency transport control room where they planned and directed special coach services to get staff into London from all points of the compass. The greater numbers and wider dispersal today would make it more difficult, but given time it could be done.

No stopping services are to be provided to Hope Valley line stations through the Peak District on Saturdays until October. Previously the same has happened in mid-week. Life carries on. The roads are imperceptibly busier, and some visitors stay away. Commuters will use their cars or make alternative arrangements. Those altenative arrangements will prove better for some and they may not return to rail - as seems to have happened in the south.

Stone and cement trains get more reliable and quicker paths, so rail does have a place. As long as the dispute is limited to Northern the longer distance services of other operators can better keep to timetabled paths, freed from Northern congestion. We should be trying to woo more traffic to railways, shouldn't we? Maybe it's a cunning plan to consolidate on longer distance routes?

The strength of these forums is the amount of very detailed knowledge of the rail industry provided by present and former rail employees and railway enthusiasts of all ages. The weakness is the very same. Opinions here are not representative of those paying to use the services day in and day out.

I suspect the average rail passenger is at least a generation younger than the average forum contributor. Nostalgia and entrenched attitudes aren't necessarily in tune with future passenger needs.

(I know, many here are travelling on a variety of passes issued to past and present rail people, but that's the point. We're preaching to the converted.)

Faster stone trains are a fat lot of used to rail passengers trying to go about their business.

 

[northwichcat]

Was on a diverted train last night the OBS was asking each paasenger where they were going as the service was skipping normal stops.. they also held a replacement bus for the service

Anyway overheard a couple saying how important it is to have a guard on board (the title is of little importance)

A train with just a driver can not offer that personal touch .. also you'd need staff at control or stations to remotely deal with issues like ensuring everyone in the train has onward transport or understanding specific needs of those onboard

I've been making that point for years. If passengers don't see the second member of staff (whether they are a guard or not) they see it as a driver only train, if they see a second member of staff they are happy whatever job title that person has.

 

[furnessvale]

Faster stone trains are a fat lot of used to rail passengers trying to go about their business.

But very useful to all those ex rail users now in their cars as more freight moves by rail.