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Arriva Rail North DOO

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In case you are not aware, managers are getting paid a £750 bonus for every 5 shifts they cover.
I have no idea what if anything they are paid and care even less. But let us assume you are right for once. £750 is a lot less for five shifts than what I would earn as a conductor. Have you seen the length of their diagrams? £750 for nearly 60 hours work. Umm about two thirds of what I get...Don't managers come cheap these days.
 
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Moonshot

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Right then, if the train can run without a second person, then how are such trains recording and is there any penalty in the franchise spec? If not, then it’s not worth the paper that it’s written on.

As a depot manager, how could you make a decent business case for (a) recruiting to fill vacancies and/or (b) a decent overtime budget to make sure that the work’s covered, if there’s no direct cost to running the train without a second member of staff?

I ve no idea, its not something that is actually applicable to Northern at the moment. But in any event, there are various aspects of performance which carry a penalty should benchmarks fail to be reached - short forming as an example. The nuts and bolts of data recording of performance issues against franchise benchmarks clearly exist ( Delay Attributors as an example ), but I m not sure how they would operate.
 

Moonshot

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I have no idea what if anything they are paid and care even less. But let us assume you are right for once. Five shifts is a lot less than what I would earn as a conductor. Have you seen the length of their diagrams? £750 for nearly 60 hours work. Umm about two thirds of what I get...Don't managers come cheap these days.

I am right, and what you dont know is that part of both a DTMs and CTMs contract of employment have a clause stating they are to stand in as substitute conductors in the event of industrial action.
 

driver_m

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I am right, and what you dont know is that part of both a DTMs and CTMs contract of employment have a clause stating they are to stand in as substitute conductors in the event of industrial action.

So. So do ours, as.soes pretty much every other TOC. Take the DTMs away from their jobs and you very quickly start losing drivers competence in rules, medicals, routes, traction. It's a self damaging action to Northern and does'nt even involve ASLEF. And knowing them. They'll be hating every second of it .
 

driver_m

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I am right, and what you dont know is that part of both a DTMs and CTMs contract of employment have a clause stating they are to stand in as substitute conductors in the event of industrial action.

So. So do ours, as.soes pretty much every other TOC. Take the DTMs away from their jobs and you very quickly start losing drivers competence in rules, medicals, routes, traction. It's a self damaging action to Northern and does'nt even involve ASLEF. And knowing them. They'll be hating every second of it .
 
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I am right, and what you dont know is that part of both a DTMs and CTMs contract of employment have a clause stating they are to stand in as substitute conductors in the event of industrial action.
You don't say. And there was I thinking they were doing it for the love of the company.
 

Moonshot

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So. So do ours, as.soes pretty much every other TOC. Take the DTMs away from their jobs and you very quickly start losing drivers competence in rules, medicals, routes, traction. It's a self damaging action to Northern and does'nt even involve ASLEF. And knowing them. They'll be hating every second of it .

Probably, but of course if DOO was implemented on every train service, that particular issue would disappear, a sort of kill 2 birds with 1 stone sort of thing. Drivers recently got paid a £1000 bonus to cover the problems
 

Eccles1983

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Drivers got 1k for allowing a stp arrangement.

Which ends in 3 weeks.

A point raised that platforms are longer than platforms - scrap the kirkby line for that, and the lane stops at southport for anything more than a 2 car 142. Anything larger and you are very close to being off - and as a doo driver I will be making absolutely sure before opening doors - no way am I releasing them faster than a guard.

Then moston, burnley mcr rd. Slaithwaite, and numerous others for examples.
 

Tomnick

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I ve no idea, its not something that is actually applicable to Northern at the moment. But in any event, there are various aspects of performance which carry a penalty should benchmarks fail to be reached - short forming as an example. The nuts and bolts of data recording of performance issues against franchise benchmarks clearly exist ( Delay Attributors as an example ), but I m not sure how they would operate.
I've had a quick look at the ITT issued in February 2015.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/407802/northern-invitation-to-tender.pdf
(5.6.1.3, p122)

The Department requires a Franchisee who will deliver a high standard of customer services, including:

...

ix. Planning to deploy a trained and knowledgeable member of staff to provide information and customer assistance in a prompt and civil manner, in both normal and disrupted operation on-board every train in addition to the driver, except on routes and services where:
• All passengers boarding the train, including young people and others without access to a card that allows them access to funds immediately and electronically, will have had an opportunity to buy their ticket at the station prior to boarding, or will have such an opportunity on board the train;
• The effective collection of revenue, in particular from travel between stations other than the start and finish points of the service, will not be adversely affected;
• The characteristics of the service in question are such that the absence of a second member of staff will have no material impact on passenger perceptions of security, including anti-social behaviour; and
• All passengers on board are able to receive appropriate information about the train service.
Unless this was later revised, it seems that your claim that a second member of staff is "mandated" on all services is rather wrong. Even on those services which don't meet the exception criteria, the only requirement is to "plan" to provide a second member of staff, not to actually provide one.
 

Tomnick

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Probably, but of course if DOO was implemented on every train service, that particular issue would disappear, a sort of kill 2 birds with 1 stone sort of thing. Drivers recently got paid a £1000 bonus to cover the problems
What do you mean? Presumably the first part suggests that DOO implementation (which can't happen yet anyway) would remove the need for managers to work trains. The second part, though - how can any payment to drivers "cover the problem" of them going out of competency, medical etc.?
 

Moonshot

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What do you mean? Presumably the first part suggests that DOO implementation (which can't happen yet anyway) would remove the need for managers to work trains. The second part, though - how can any payment to drivers "cover the problem" of them going out of competency, medical etc.?

Yes....a DOO service would not require a second person ( in the form of a manager as an example ). As you point out it cant happen yet, but as far as I m concerned, the whole network in Northernland being DOO is never going to happen. It will start off however with these Northern Connect routes with the new trains.

Drivers have gone out of competency etc , it has been rectified fairly quickly however.

Aslef negotiated a one off £1000 payment for what you might call " driver impact issues ". Its somewhat ironic that ASLEF have managed to negotiate better terms for the members without having to resort to actual strike action....clearly the rest day working ban actually achieved its aim.
 
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Yes....a DOO service would not require a second person ( in the form of a manager as an example ). As you point out it cant happen yet, but as far as I m concerned, the whole network in Northernland being DOO is never going to happen. It will start off however with these Northern Connect routes with the new trains.

Drivers have gone out of competency etc , it has been rectified fairly quickly however.

Aslef negotiated a one off £1000 payment for what you might call " driver impact issues ". Its somewhat ironic that ASLEF have managed to negotiate better terms for the members without having to resort to actual strike action....clearly the rest day working ban actually achieved its aim.
ASLEF Negotiated the settlement out of sheer panic on the part of Northern management. Well done to ASLEF for finding themselves in a position to achieve it. But it hardly takes a genius to figure out that drivers of the trains that is the whole purpose of the business will always have the whip hand.
I mean, lets be really honest about it before we start kidding ourselves. If you read of a story where a company paid their employees £1,000 as a temptation to work over. but after they handed over the cash the employees could still tell them to do one. You would rightly think the company was nuts. Yet so desperate was the toxic brand to solve it's issues in the North West, it did just that. It was a act worthy of a Tory negotiating Brexit.
 
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Moonshot

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ASLEF Negotiated the settlement out of sheer panic on the part of Northern management. Well done to ASLEF for finding themselves in a position to achieve it. But it hardly takes a genius to figure out that drivers of the trains that is the whole purpose of the business will always have the whip hand.
I mean, lets be really honest about it before we start kidding ourselves. If you read of a story where a company paid their employees £1,000 as a temptation to work over. but after they handed over the cash the employees could still tell them to do one. You would rightly think the company was nuts. Yet so desperate was the toxic brand to solve it's issues in the North West, it did just that.

ASLEF are not yet involved ( publically at least ) in this DOO issue, but when the time comes to negotiate over that, it will put a spanner in the RMT works. Those new trains currently being made do not drive themselves.
 

Eccles1983

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Again more falsehoods.

Aslef didnt ban overtime or rest day working.

The agreement elapsed and the company didnt bother attempting to sort it out until it was far too late.

The 1k is nothing to do with the rest day agreement. Any attempt to suggest otherwise is a blatant lie.

The 1k is to allow stp's for 3 months without question. As has happened to try to restore stability due to the mess the timetable change.
 

Tomnick

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ASLEF are not yet involved ( publically at least ) in this DOO issue, but when the time comes to negotiate over that, it will put a spanner in the RMT works. Those new trains currently being made do not drive themselves.
I’d have thought that’d potentially be an even bigger spanner in Northern’s works, if there’s anything left of it by then.
 

Robertj21a

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ASLEF Negotiated the settlement out of sheer panic on the part of Northern management. Well done to ASLEF for finding themselves in a position to achieve it. But it hardly takes a genius to figure out that drivers of the trains that is the whole purpose of the business will always have the whip hand.
I mean, lets be really honest about it before we start kidding ourselves. If you read of a story where a company paid their employees £1,000 as a temptation to work over. but after they handed over the cash the employees could still tell them to do one. You would rightly think the company was nuts. Yet so desperate was the toxic brand to solve it's issues in the North West, it did just that. It was a act worthy of a Tory negotiating Brexit.


So far we've had 'Don't panic' and 'Sheer panic' as your interpretation of management actions. Given that the management most probably has far greater ability than you, or many on this forum, it might be better if you kept your thoughts to yourself before you look even more of a charlie.
 

Robertj21a

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ASLEF Negotiated the settlement out of sheer panic on the part of Northern management. Well done to ASLEF for finding themselves in a position to achieve it. But it hardly takes a genius to figure out that drivers of the trains that is the whole purpose of the business will always have the whip hand.
I mean, lets be really honest about it before we start kidding ourselves. If you read of a story where a company paid their employees £1,000 as a temptation to work over. but after they handed over the cash the employees could still tell them to do one. You would rightly think the company was nuts. Yet so desperate was the toxic brand to solve it's issues in the North West, it did just that. It was a act worthy of a Tory negotiating Brexit.


So far we've had 'Don't panic' and 'Sheer panic' as your interpretation of management actions. Given that the management most probably has far greater ability than you, or many on this forum, it might be better if you kept your thoughts to yourself before you look even more of a charlie.
 

Carlisle

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Aslef negotiated a one off £1000 payment for what you might call " driver impact issues ". Its somewhat ironic that ASLEF have managed to negotiate better terms for the members without having to resort to actual strike action....clearly the rest day working ban actually achieved its aim.
Interesting, as when a similar happening occurred recently on Virgin trains, it led to a strike by the majority of the rest of their workforce
 

Bromley boy

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Hence why I put GPS in which would know if a driver stops short (similar to the system used by electrostars when they serve stations with short platforms)

The system used on electrostars doesn’t know if the driver has stopped short. It still relies on the train being correctly accommodated on the platform.
 

scrapy

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Its certainly a term and condition of the franchise agreement to have a second person on the train for revenue and customer service etc.
No it isn't. I suggest you read the franchise agreement. Even Northern have confirmed that they don't plan to have a second person aboard every train and some stations will be staffed instead.
 

Moonshot

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@wingsoveryorks do tell us all - you sure that ASLEF wont be negotiating this ( amongst other things ) already ? You do realise that there is a work in progress stream already dont you ??

Are you sure the new trains are going to drive themselves?
 

Moonshot

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No it isn't. I suggest you read the franchise agreement. Even Northern have confirmed that they don't plan to have a second person aboard every train and some stations will be staffed instead.

The Department of Transport and Rail North have specified that the franchise must ensure that at least 50% of the aggregate Train Mileage of Passenger Services provided in each Reporting Period is operated as Driver Controlled Operation (DCO). DCO is defined as "a Passenger Service is operated as Driver Controlled Operation the Franchisee shall, in preparing the train crew diagram relating to such Passenger Service plan for an additional Franchise Employee (that is, in addition to the driver) to be present on such Passenger Service for the purposes of customer service and/or revenue control."
 

Bromley boy

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actions. Given that the management most probably has far greater ability than you, or many on this forum,

I’m not sure how many TOC managers you’ve met but that isn’t a safe assumption! They often aren’t the sharpest tools in the draw.

One word: Thameslink.
 

Kite159

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The system used on electrostars doesn’t know if the driver has stopped short. It still relies on the train being correctly accommodated on the platform.

Is there any system which makes sure that even if the train stops short the doors won't be released (458s?)
 

Tomnick

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The Department of Transport and Rail North have specified that the franchise must ensure that at least 50% of the aggregate Train Mileage of Passenger Services provided in each Reporting Period is operated as Driver Controlled Operation (DCO). DCO is defined as "a Passenger Service is operated as Driver Controlled Operation the Franchisee shall, in preparing the train crew diagram relating to such Passenger Service plan for an additional Franchise Employee (that is, in addition to the driver) to be present on such Passenger Service for the purposes of customer service and/or revenue control."
Where is that definition, please?
 

scrapy

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Highly amusing. As I said earlier, I reckon you must be Mick Cash (or a member of his family/fan club).
You suggest that others only read/hear what they want to but ignore the fact that your 'hero' has created many of the difficulties himself, through appalling communications, irrelevant issues and living in the 1970s.
Have you ever tried taking those blinkers off ?
:E
Mick Cash's actually a lot cleverer than you think. His main aim is to ensure that his statements make the national press, and gets free publicity that way, something he is very good at doing. If he makes a well balanced statement in perfect English with no hint of controversy he knows the national press will not pick up and it will be a waste of time, stuck at the back of the RMT website for no one to read.

He knows full well buzzwords like 'German owned' and 'foreign companies profiting out of the British taxpayer' get him column inches. This sells newspapers.It says more about the sensationalist press and their readers than Mick Cash. Exactly the same as Micheal O Leary knows that by making statements about schemes such as standing room only and paying for toilets got him loads of free publicity to make Ryanair one of the most profitable airlines in the world even though he had no intention of implementing these schemes. Had he said we plan to give every customer a free cup of tea, the press would not have been interested.

There's no such thing as bad publicity the worst thing is when no one is talking about you.
 
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Mick Cash's actually a lot cleverer than you think. His main aim is to ensure that his statements make the national press, and gets free publicity that way, something he is very good at doing. If he makes a well balanced statement in perfect English with no hint of controversy he knows the national press will not pick up and it will be a waste of time, stuck at the back of the RMT website for no one to read.

He knows full well buzzwords like 'German owned' and 'foreign companies profiting out of the British taxpayer' get him column inches. This sells newspapers.It says more about the sensationalist press and their readers than Mick Cash. Exactly the same as Micheal O Leary knows that by making statements about schemes such as standing room only and paying for toilets got him loads of free publicity to make Ryanair one of the most profitable airlines in the world even though he had no intention of implementing these schemes. Had he said we plan to give every customer a free cup of tea, the press would not have been interested.

There's no such thing as bad publicity the worst thing is when no one is talking about you.
Absolutely. Interesting that now a lot of people are picking up on the fact that fare increases are being used to boost profits of foreign owned rail companies. That is thanks to the RMT's blunt campaign of the truth. Asking why we are paying German state railways to undermine safety on our own is one of the best publicity leaflets I have ever seen. It gets right under the skin does that.
Wait until the truth comes out about how much it has cost the government to prop up this failing outfit. Then the brown stuff will really hit the fan. Grayling has managed to keep a lid on it for now, but he won't for ever.
 

Tomnick

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Page 314 of the franchise document item 18.2
Thanks.
The Passenger Services in respect of which the Franchisee shall
plan for an additional Franchisee Employee (that is, in addition to the driver) to be present
as required by this paragraph 18.2 are as follows: [redacted]
...suggests that the paragraph doesn't apply to all services that'll run DOO, but it seems contradictory. However, it doesn't mandate that a second person is actually provided, only that the train crew diagrams provide for one.
 
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