Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bromley boy]

You do realise on many Northern services the only way for 30 seconds per stop to be saved is for the doors to not be opened at all and for the driver to start moving off as soon as the train has come to a complete stop! At some of the most rural stations the guard presses the door close button within a few seconds of releasing the doors, so they'll be no time saving at all by having driver open and guard closing, if the guard isn't in position when the train stops they'll be a delay in the doors closing regardless of who's opening the doors.

I’m not familiar with the current Northern method of working, but doesn’t the guard have to check the train is correctly positioned on the platform before opening the doors?

It at least means the guard won’t have to interrupt a transaction in order to release the doors. The saving may be minuscule at some stations but would be more significant at busier ones (with perhaps a 2/3 minute dwell time where the guard could keep attending to ticket sales before dispatching). The overall advantage would still be a function of number of stops * average time saved.

It certainly works well where I am on our guarded mainline services (which are outer suburban semi- fasts with 10-15 stops per trip rather than true “intercity”).

 

[northwichcat]

How about considering the possibility that most delays are actually caused by passengers themselves.

Again, you think Mick Cash is behind everything. He isn't. This idea of Saturday strikes was put forward by a Northern RMT branch, and it was picked up on. If Mick Cash is so crap, how come agreements with Anglia, Wales, and Scotland have been reached, Merseyrail hopefully, and as sure as apples grow on trees, Northern being such a toxic brand will have to at some point.

The Welsh agreement was with the Welsh Government not a TOC and the RMT might still get a shock when heavy rail trains start getting replaced by light rail services.

The idea is the Northern brand will be retained for the next franchise (preventing all the debranding and rebranding being required) so it'll be of more concern to TfN if the brand becomes toxic than Arriva.

 

[northwichcat]

So explain to me how a driver will know any better.

You're not making any sense. You were implying it's an advantage that the guard already knows where passengers are and aren't alighting. I'm pointing out they don't based on a ticket check. It'll be exactly the same if the driver releases the door, the advantage you were alluding to doesn't exist.

 

[northwichcat]

I’m not familiar with the current Northern method of working, but doesn’t the guard have to check the train is correctly positioned on the platform before opening the doors?

Correctly positioned seems to just be train not overlapping ends of platform, which at most Northern stations is never going to be issue as the platforms are much longer than the trains. At stations with a 'Harrington hump' they release the doors as normal even if the doors aren't correctly lined up with the hump.

 

[Moonshot]

Is it? What happens if one isn't provided on a given train? How will this be recorded, if it is at all? Do you think that there will be a second person on the vast majority of trains?

Yes. And to back that up, I have the research from Passenger Focus from some time ago which was actually fed into the spec for the franchise.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

You're not making any sense. You were implying it's an advantage that the guard already knows where passengers are and aren't alighting. I'm pointing out they don't based on a ticket check. It'll be exactly the same if the driver releases the door, the advantage you were alluding to doesn't exist.

Of course it exists. How do you think request stop trains work? Passengers are told to request the stop to the guard not the driver.

 

[northwichcat]

Of course it exists. How do you think request stop trains work?

Because passengers who want a request stop are required to inform the guard that they wish to alight at that particular station. When I (and other passengers) broke our journeys from Chester to Knutsford to visit the Goshawk pub in Mouldsworth the guard had absolutely no idea that we were all going to get off at Mouldsworth. If it was still a request stop then the guard would have known but it isn't.

So are you suggesting every rural station should be a request stop so that there's a disadvantage to moving to driver releasing, guard closing? If not what is your point?

 

[Moonshot]

Correctly positioned seems to just be train not overlapping ends of platform, which at most Northern stations is never going to be issue as the platforms are much longer than the trains. At stations with a 'Harrington hump' they release the doors as normal even if the doors aren't correctly lined up with the hump.

That is correct, but in actual fact there are some significant numbers of platforms which are a tight fit ( Kirkby Line as an example ). With the general progress being made for more and more longer trains, this is an issue which is not likely to be solved anytime soon.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Correctly positioned seems to just be train not overlapping ends of platform, which at most Northern stations is never going to be issue as the platforms are much longer than the trains. At stations with a 'Harrington hump' they release the doors as normal even if the doors aren't correctly lined up with the hump.

Long trains short platform workings. They are everywhere on Northern's network. Any train formation can turn up on any given day with Northern.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Because passengers who want a request stop are required to inform the guard that they wish to alight at that particular station. When I (and other passengers) broke our journeys from Chester to Knutsford to visit the Goshawk pub in Mouldsworth the guard had absolutely no idea that we were all going to get off at Mouldsworth. If it was still a request stop then the guard would have known but it isn't.

So are you suggesting every rural station should be a request stop so that there's a disadvantage to moving to driver releasing, guard closing? If not what is your point?

What, you didn't open your mouth and tell him you wanted to get off before the stop. Well weren't you lucky it stopped.

 

[Tomnick]

Yes. And to back that up, I have the research from Passenger Focus from some time ago which was actually fed into the spec for the franchise.

Passenger Focus saying that they’d like it to happen doesn’t mean that it will happen or that the franchise spec enforces it.

 

[Moonshot]

Passenger Focus saying that they’d like it to happen doesn’t mean that it will happen or that the franchise spec enforces it.

I only deal in facts, and its there in black and white that a second person is mandated as per franchise agreement.

No disrespect, but a lot of posters on this thread are looking at " ifs whats and maybes " etc. As far as I am concerned as a Northern Guard looking at the next 10 years, the role will still exist in its current form on routes which are not suitable for anything other than a guard being in control of the doors etc. The first likely change of method of working is when the new units start turning up for the Northern Connect routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What, you didn't open your mouth and tell him you wanted to get off before the stop. Well weren't you lucky it stopped.

Mouldsworth is not a request stop. The train must stop there regardless of who is boarding or alighting, unless the appropriate paperwork is provided to the driver/guard to do otherwise.

 

[Kite159]

That is correct, but in actual fact there are some significant numbers of platforms which are a tight fit ( Kirkby Line as an example ). With the general progress being made for more and more longer trains, this is an issue which is not likely to be solved anytime soon.

Newer trains with ASDO (controlled by GPS) so the train knows if the driver has stopped in the correct place and only the doors on the platform are allowed to be released. Or a bit like how the Blackpool South - Colne services operate when it's a pair of units, where folk are kicked out of the rear unit at Preston and the rear unit is locked out of use [similar to some of the Southern services to Caterham when they run as pairs of 455s, rear unit gets emptied out & locked out of use after Purley towards Caterham due to short platforms on the branch itself]

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Only 30% of standard services expected to operate on Saturday. Down from the heady days of 50%.
"Don't panic captain Mainwearing, Don't panic"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only 30% of standard services expected to operate on Saturday. Down from the heady days of 50%.
"Don't panic captain Mainwearing, Don't panic"

Does that mean support for the strikes has increased? Or is it because fewer managers are available (i.e. not on holiday) to stand in?

 

[Moonshot]

Newer trains with ASDO (controlled by GPS) so the train knows if the driver has stopped in the correct place and only the doors on the platform are allowed to be released. Or a bit like how the Blackpool South - Colne services operate when it's a pair of units, where folk are kicked out of the rear unit at Preston and the rear unit is locked out of use [similar to some of the Southern services to Caterham when they run as pairs of 455s, rear unit gets emptied out & locked out of use after Purley towards Caterham due to short platforms on the branch itself]

Locking out units is not uncommon on the Northern Network. Whilst the technology may exist to assist the driver on the correct stopping place ( we call them good old fashioned stop boards up here !! ), Northern are still going to be running some significant numbers of old stock, and I doubt the technology will be retrofitted.

 

[Tomnick]

I only deal in facts, and its there in black and white that a second person is mandated as per franchise agreement.

So, if that second person is unavailable, the train can’t run?

No disrespect, but a lot of posters on this thread are looking at " ifs whats and maybes " etc. As far as I am concerned as a Northern Guard looking at the next 10 years, the role will still exist in its current form on routes which are not suitable for anything other than a guard being in control of the doors etc. The first likely change of method of working is when the new units start turning up for the Northern Connect routes.

If the RMT are to be believed, Northern have stated that their view is that all routes bar Whitby are suitable for DOO. Traction will be the limiting factor.

Newer trains with ASDO (controlled by GPS) so the train knows if the driver has stopped in the correct place and only the doors on the platform are allowed to be released. Or a bit like how the Blackpool South - Colne services operate when it's a pair of units, where folk are kicked out of the rear unit at Preston and the rear unit is locked out of use [similar to some of the Southern services to Caterham when they run as pairs of 455s, rear unit gets emptied out & locked out of use after Purley towards Caterham due to short platforms on the branch itself]

Fairly sure that ASDO etc. don’t check that the train is correctly positioned on the platform before releasing the doors though? A 4-car train could be stopped at the 2-car mark on a 4-car platform in error (it happens), and the system would still allow all the doors to be released?

 

[Moonshot]

Does that mean support for the strikes has increased? Or is it because fewer managers are available (i.e. not on holiday) to stand in?

That will be the case.

interestingly at my depot, every single one of the Sunday jobs this weekend has been covered - even the LDC have volunteered for that. Good way of making the loss of earnings up.

 

[northwichcat]

What, you didn't open your mouth and tell him you wanted to get off before the stop. Well weren't you lucky it stopped.

I said it used to be a request stop but isn't any more. The guard would have thought we were idiots if we asked him to stop the train at a station it was supposed to call at regardless! You might as well give up - you're unable to read things properly or make a logical argument against DOO!

 

[northwichcat]

Does that mean support for the strikes has increased? Or is it because fewer managers are available (i.e. not on holiday) to stand in?

Seems to be a combination of more office based staff on holiday, stand-in guards being required to be available for Sunday due to fewer crews volunteering to work and ATW being unable/unwilling to help out. I think they plan for zero proper guards turning up and if they turn up they find they also get a manager on their train.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Does that mean support for the strikes has increased? Or is it because fewer managers are available (i.e. not on holiday) to stand in?

Support has not needed to increase as it has never really decreased. A lot of managers are now getting pretty fed up to be honest. I have spoken to one or two off the record and they are now getting mighty pissed off.

 

[Moonshot]

So, if that second person is unavailable, the train can’t run?


If the RMT are to be believed, Northern have stated that their view is that all routes bar Whitby are suitable for DOO. Traction will be the limiting factor.


Fairly sure that ASDO etc. don’t check that the train is correctly positioned on the platform before releasing the doors though? A 4-car train could be stopped at the 2-car mark on a 4-car platform in error (it happens), and the system would still allow all the doors to be released?

No idea, that sort of detail hasnt been made public to us, but from a passenger perspective , it should do. Dont forget, these Northern Connect services are generally limited stop services at stations where there are already staff anyway......and to give you an example , Bolton has been fitted with RA indicators which are not yet in use

 

[Moonshot]

Support has not needed to increase as it has never really decreased. A lot of managers are now getting pretty fed up to be honest. I have spoken to one or two off the record and they are now getting mighty pissed off.

In case you are not aware, managers are getting paid a £750 bonus for every 5 shifts they cover.

 

[Kite159]

Seems to be a combination of more office based staff on holiday, stand-in guards being required to be available for Sunday due to fewer crews volunteering to work and ATW being unable/unwilling to help out.

It's a bank holiday weekend so the management might already have plans, assuming they have the Monday off.

Most likely Northern will offer extra money for the managers to come in on the Saturdays and charge it back to the government as additional costs due to industrial action.

----

Fairly sure that ASDO etc. don’t check that the train is correctly positioned on the platform before releasing the doors though? A 4-car train could be stopped at the 2-car mark on a 4-car platform in error (it happens), and the system would still allow all the doors to be released?

Hence why I put GPS in which would know if a driver stops short (similar to the system used by electrostars when they serve stations with short platforms)

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I said it used to be a request stop but isn't any more. The guard would have thought we were idiots if we asked him to stop the train at a station it was supposed to call at regardless! You might as well give up - you're unable to read things properly or make a logical argument against DOO!

What has the guard thinking you were idiots got to do with DOO? I'm sure his thinking would have been on the money if he had

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Hence why I put GPS in which would know if a driver stops short (similar to the system used by electrostars when they serve stations with short platforms)

GPS is not that accurate.

 

[Tomnick]

No idea, that sort of detail hasnt been made public to us, but from a passenger perspective , it should do. Dont forget, these Northern Connect services are generally limited stop services at stations where there are already staff anyway......and to give you an example , Bolton has been fitted with RA indicators which are not yet in use

Right then, if the train can run without a second person, then how are such trains recording and is there any penalty in the franchise spec? If not, then it’s not worth the paper that it’s written on.

As a depot manager, how could you make a decent business case for (a) recruiting to fill vacancies and/or (b) a decent overtime budget to make sure that the work’s covered, if there’s no direct cost to running the train without a second member of staff?

 

[northwichcat]

What has the guard thinking you were idiots got to do with DOO? I'm sure his thinking would have been on the money if he had

Do you know how a web forum works? If I ask you something about one of your previous posts you act like I'm being stupid. If you don't want any follow up questions on what you say perhaps you shouldn't bother posting.

 

[Tomnick]

Hence why I put GPS in which would know if a driver stops short (similar to the system used by electrostars when they serve stations with short platforms)

As I understand it, the GPS is used only to determine which station the train is at*, so that the correct number of doors can be released with reference to a database of all stations.

* - fairly sure that it doesn’t, or didn’t, even differentiate between platforms, hence some trains fitting on platforms but being unable to release all doors because the opposite platform is shorter so that’s the length stored in the database.