Arriva Rail North DOO

[Kite159]

Wilco.

"Chris Grayling is the best SoSfT ever!"

Also, stop making this a "war" please. Some of us have places to go on the weekend

Regular folk who might want to use the trains get caught in the crossfire, and decide enough is enough and use private transport or buses to avoid getting caught up in the latest strike.

And the last time I checked, more people are killed on the roads than the railway.

Passengers numbers will decrease as more turn away from the railways as the railways continue on their quest of self destruction (both TOCs & National Rail), it will be like the 80s where usage will be on the decrease allowing some heavily subsidied lines to have service levels decreased or even in a worst case scenario closed with a bus replacement, like some of the rural branch lines in France.

Or when the time comes to replace the sprinters, the powers that be decide that 2 new coaches per 3 old coaches being retired will be suitable, maybe with extra high density seating just to kick the remaining passengers in the teeth some more

 

[Bromley boy]

It's more because they could play it smart but decided to go in all guns blazing.

In the end the RMT have used the only “gun” available to them: causing so much disruption that it becomes politically unpalatable to the powers that be (and this approach seems to have paid dividends in several disputes!). Their press releases aren’t the best, but you can’t argue with their tactics! In the end their duty is to their members, not passengers.

As taxpayers the question we should all be asking is: wouldn’t it have been better if the DfT had simply left things alone? Or perhaps taken a more softly softly approach: retaining guards but proposing driver open/guard close or similar?

What with failed electrification schemes, the Thameslink debacle etc. you’d think the DfT would have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Andyh82]

Obviously a wind up poster here deliberately pushing all the buttons talking about enjoying free days off and the like.

I bet he is one of those ones who never leaves the rear cab except to do the doors.

Personally I’d keep the guard on the train but introduce a 1% yearly pay increase cap over the length of franchise to pay for it. That would be great for safety and also ensure hard working commuters wouldn’t have to fork out for even higher fare increases.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

... As in without affecting passengers...

All strikes hurt. I do have empathy with passengers. It will be very hard on people such as hikers who use the trains to get into the Dales and Peak district. But what else can you do? At least people will get to work on the Monday.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Obviously a wind up poster here deliberately pushing all the buttons talking about enjoying free days off and the like.

I bet he is one of those ones who never leaves the rear cab except to do the doors.

This forum needed a bit of reality brought into it's life. I'll provide it for you

 

[scrapy]

Playing it smart now. Hurt the managers Saturdays off plans. Genius.

It does seem that Northern are running fewer trains on strike days now. Stand in guards who usually work in offices Monday to Friday who were pushed into working strike days by their managers during their normal hours(who threatened disciplinary action if they didnt saying it was a reasonable instruction) are refusing to cover Saturday strikes.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Agreements can be reached. They were reached on Anglia. It just needs a grown up attitude that Northern management don't seem to have. Inviting talks and asking the RMT to call off the last strike, then messing them about, leaving them sat in hotel rooms and not showing. It is childish behaviour and the result was inevitable.
We all had high hopes that Northern were serious about sorting it out, instead we got playschool. You would think with them becoming the toxic brand they are, they would at least wish to solve a few issues, but no.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that the best you can come up with? You clearly don't give a rats about the elderly on any given day of the week, never mind a strike day.

Personally, I'd take DOO if we could introduce level boarding throughout the regional network (which is why, as I've said before, I support it for Merseyrail). The Swiss have managed it, and they are a (very) low platform country. Yet we, a high platform country, can only be bothered to do it on a small network on Merseyside. Why?

I'm certain that I would rather not need assistance to board and alight a train than have to have someone on board to provide it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the last time I checked, more people are killed on the roads than the railway.

This is my contention more widely (not just in relation to DOO). There is a very strong argument to actually cut spending on railway safety in order to spend that money on either road safety or on cutting fares to encourage cars off the road.

TBH, the last big thing in railway safety that made a significant difference was the rollout of TPWS. Ever since that, it's just been an ongoing process of increasingly expensive diminishing returns while fares shoot up to often ridiculous levels.

 

[Bromley boy]

TBH, the last big thing in railway safety that made a significant difference was the rollout of TPWS. Ever since that, it's just been an ongoing process of increasingly expensive diminishing returns while fares shoot up to often ridiculous levels.

This is a good point.

There’s surely a good argument for the government to recognise the enormous economic contribution the railways make to the wider economy by drawing more subsidy from general taxation and reversing the ridiculous policy of attributing more and more of its costs to fare payers. By doing so fares could be reduced.

Instructing the DfT to abandon pointless, expensive and politically motivated DOO disputes might also help .

 

[387star]

In the end the RMT have used the only “gun” available to them: causing so much disruption that it becomes politically unpalatable to the powers that be (and this approach seems to have paid dividends in several disputes!). Their press releases aren’t the best, but you can’t argue with their tactics! In the end their duty is to their members, not passengers.

As taxpayers the question we should all be asking is: wouldn’t it have been better if the DfT had simply left things alone? Or perhaps taken a more softly softly approach: retaining guards but proposing driver open/guard close or similar?

What with failed electrification schemes, the Thameslink debacle etc. you’d think the DfT would have bigger fish to fry.

The RMT are now happy it would seem to explore options for the driver to operate the doors in normal circumstances so that is a pretty big concession in their part and reiterates it is not simply about the doors

 

[Bromley boy]

The RMT are now happy it would seem to explore options for the driver to operate the doors in normal circumstances so that is a pretty big concession in their part and reiterates it is not simply about the doors

Indeed.

And shows they are not incapable of compromise, despite the awful press releases!

 

[Robertj21a]

What makes me laugh about some of you lot. Has any of this nonsense reduced your fares? Is it ever likely to?. So keen to get into bed with German state railways you fail to see your 3.5% fare hike is keeping fares in Berlin down. Fancy paying a foreign owned rail company to kick the elderly and disabled off our trains.

Just sad on so many fronts.

I've only just realised that you must be Mick Cash - and I claim my reward !!
All this twaddle about the Germans, foreign owned railways etc, just singles you out as another RMT dinosaur.

 

[northernchris]

We'll win this war. Northern management today have gone into meltdown,

I think this is what's needed to show Northern management that they need to start being serious with talks, and not use them as a delaying tactic. It's clear now that both crew and passengers are getting frustrated, and although Northern are bound by their franchise agreement (which I still think should be renegotiated as Network Rail have prevented the planned timetable from going ahead) there must be room for a sensible compromise to be reached without dragging this on indefinitely

 

[Moonshot]

I think this is what's needed to show Northern management that they need to start being serious with talks, and not use them as a delaying tactic. It's clear now that both crew and passengers are getting frustrated, and although Northern are bound by their franchise agreement (which I still think should be renegotiated as Network Rail have prevented the planned timetable from going ahead) there must be room for a sensible compromise to be reached without dragging this on indefinitely

Leaving aside the politics , what do you think a sensible compromise will be?

 

[driver_m]

Do you seriously think barely any non railway worker would see a resemblance between an average train drivers wage & conditions and the phrase ‘truly awful company’,?

Green eyed monster coming out there again I see. A bad company is a bad company. Does a woman managing at a city financial institution experiencing blatant sexism make it less bad than a cleaner in another financial firm experiencing the same problem? If you haven't got the brains to understand this then that's your problem, not mine.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes It's not rocket science if more managers work trains the less impact strike action has on the company which is the whole point of a strike.

Your employer is supposed to be one that primarily feels the impact. If they have to write emergency timetables, arrange training for managers and office staff to provide cover and get managers and office staff to work overtime it's having an adverse affect on the employer. If they decide that's impossible give up on that it means Northern doesn't suffer (DfT will compensate them) and the strike is effectively against the passengers not Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Leaving aside the politics , what do you think a sensible compromise will be?

That's the difficulty. If the primary driver is cost cutting, nothing other than full DOO will do - it's binary - as nothing other than reducing the number of on board staff by 1 will achieve that.

If it's about something else, such as improving fare collection on branch lines, a system in which a guard is always present but does not operate the doors will work, and even driver release will help. But that quite clearly isn't what it is about, even though those things would provide an improvement.

 

[northwichcat]

So if these businesses are being harmed by the strikes then presumably their owners will be beating a path to their elected representatives wanting to know why the SoS is so busy trying to avoid attempting to resolve the dispute as opposed to ensuring that the DfT demands that Northern digs its heels in to preserve the "sanctity" of the franchise agreement.

Not if they read the RMT's press releases. It's all down to an evil profit driven German company who Grayling needs to strip of the franchise according to their press releases. Yet if Grayling does that it will give him the opportunity to change the terms to move towards 100% DCO (Grayling is more in favour of reducing railway costs than McLoughlin was.)

 

[Carlisle]

I've only just realised that you must be Mick Cash - and I claim my reward !!

All this twaddle about the Germans, foreign owned railways etc, just singles you out as another RMT dinosaur.

Train crew that joined the railway in recent times, have for the most part only ever known a culture of good pay and conditions ,regular above inflation rises and a powerful union that can win most disputes whenever it deems certain issues need go that far .

 

[northwichcat]

The RMT have agreed to take part in both ACAS talks and direct talks. The company has yet to set a date for these to happen. The RMT remain to be convinced however these are anything other than a delay tactic by the company to a call of strikes. The RMT have said if meaningful progress is made strikes can be called off but remain to be convinced after being messed around last time.

But why would any decent manager be in a rush to resolve a dispute with the RMT over what may happen at the December 2019 timetable change when they still have unresolved issues from what was supposed to be the December 2017 recast?

 

[CN75]

It does seem that Northern are running fewer trains on strike days now. Stand in guards who usually work in offices Monday to Friday who were pushed into working strike days by their managers during their normal hours(who threatened disciplinary action if they didnt saying it was a reasonable instruction) are refusing to cover Saturday strikes.

Since Northern get compensated, they will probably pay the stand-in guards (DfT-agreed) extra bonuses and then claim it back as with the other costs for the industrial action. Whether it will be enough to keep the services running remains to be seen. In the absence of ASLEF doing anything supportive besides a handful of drivers not working rest days, the RMT is at least trying another new tactic.

This is the DOO fight where the RMT actually has the most to lose as the plans convert half the guards into station staff who then get people on and off trains and check tickets. What this becomes is round the clock station staffing when trains are running, like the very successful London Overground, but in Manchester, Leeds and other busier metro-style routes. At London Overground, portacabins for staff at stations that had no facilities were put up within weeks.

The DfT let the Northern franchise just before the first Southern strikes started, so won’t have imagined it reaching 24 and counting at Northern. The Conservatives will presumably stay in government until after the new trains are operating at Northern which is the biggest reason that a change of direction from the DfT seems unlikely. And it is all on Arriva achieve the result, however they see possible, as they signed up to the DOO plans.

 

[northwichcat]

Since Northern get compensated, they will probably pay the stand-in guards (DfT-agreed) extra bonuses and then claim it back as with the other costs for the industrial action. Whether it will be enough to keep the services running remains to be seen.

It was claimed a few weeks back that Northern haven't tried to claim even 1p for the industrial action even though the franchise agreements states that they can put a claim in to DfT for losses. Speculation is it's because if they put in a claim it'll mean they can't hand back the franchise claiming it's been let on terms impossible to implement.

 

[Bromley boy]

That's the difficulty. If the primary driver is cost cutting, nothing other than full DOO will do - it's binary - as nothing other than reducing the number of on board staff by 1 will achieve that.

If it's about something else, such as improving fare collection on branch lines, a system in which a guard is always present but does not operate the doors will work, and even driver release will help. But that quite clearly isn't what it is about, even though those things would provide an improvement.

Which raises the question: what is any of it about?

If it’s not cost cutting (and how can it be after how much these disputes have cost/are continuing to cost), not “something else” as per your list above, what are we left with?

 

[CN75]

It was claimed a few weeks back that Northern haven't tried to claim even 1p for the industrial action even though the franchise agreements states that they can put a claim in to DfT for losses. Speculation is it's because if they put in a claim it'll mean they can't hand back the franchise claiming it's been let on terms impossible to implement.

Why would Arriva actually want to hand back the franchise, or for it to fail? The industrial action is challenging, but managing through it is what they signed up to. If their ticket revenues go below a contract level anyway on normal days, the DfT will make up the difference too as they do for all franchises.

No franchise in reality turns out to be exactly as it was planned. Every contract has mechanisms to deal with changes on a day to day basis, a bit like getting a substitution in your order from an online shop.

As for Arriva not yet claiming - if they haven’t- they could wait for a bundled up claim at the end and be being paid estimates at the current time. Who knows? But the DfT want the DOO commitment to be upheld and completed as a very high priority. This is obvious from the minimum 50% clause and the commentary in the ITT. Therefore, anything Arriva wants to help it achieve the DOO commitment is probably on the table, including financial support.

The rumours will always swirl to help keep people believing the industrial action is working.

 

[Bromley boy]

Green eyed monster coming out there again I see. A bad company is a bad company. Does a woman managing at a city financial institution experiencing blatant sexism make it less bad than a cleaner in another financial firm experiencing the same problem? If you haven't got the brains to understand this then that's your problem, not mine.

Agreed. Sadly some on here are so blinded by envy that they cannot see the wood for the trees.

 

[northwichcat]

Which raises the question: what is any of it about?

If it’s not cost cutting (and how can it be after how much these disputes have cost/are continuing to cost), not “something else” as per your list above, what are we left with?

Primary driver is increased revenue protection - on board staff checking and selling more tickets. Alternative would be to have an AFC and a guard which would obviously cost more.

 

[CN75]

Which raises the question: what is any of it about?

If it’s not cost cutting (and how can it be after how much these disputes have cost/are continuing to cost), not “something else” as per your list above, what are we left with?

Trains not being cancelled or delayed because there isn’t a guard.

 

[northwichcat]

Why would Arriva actually want to hand back the franchise, or for it to fail? The industrial action is challenging, but managing through it is what they signed up to. If their ticket revenues go below a contract level anyway on normal days, the DfT will make up the difference their too as they do for all franchises.

No franchise in reality turns out to be exactly as it was planned. Every contract has mechanisms to deal with changes on a day to day basis, a bit like getting a substitution in your order from an online shop.

As for Arriva not yet claiming - if they haven’t- they could wait for a bundled up claim at the end and be being paid estimates at the current time. Who knows? But the DfT want the DOO commitment to be upheld and completed as a very high priority. This is obvious from the minimum 50% clause and the commentary in the ITT. Therefore, anything Arriva wants to help it achieve the DOO commitment is probably on the table, including financial support.

The rumours will always swirl to help keep people believing the industrial action is working.

You're presuming the impossible terms relate to DOO. It's more likely they relate to being unable to deliver the extra services as scheduled due to GWR hogging DMUs they need, Network Rail not wiring fast enough and Porterbrook being unable to produce the workaround solution (769s) in an acceptable time frame.

 

[CN75]

You're presuming the impossible terms relate to DOO. It's more likely they relate to being unable to deliver the extra services as scheduled due to GWR hogging DMUs they need, Network Rail not wiring fast enough and Porterbrook being unable to produce the workaround solution (769s) in an acceptable time frame.

All factors outside Arriva’s control, and therefore ‘force majeure’ on any penalties in the contract for failing to deliver from the DfT.

GTR are running less than half their proposed increased timetable and have had a diabolical summer, again. The DfT absolutely avoid having operators fail at almost any cost, for obvious reasons.