Arriva Rail North DOO

[LowLevel]

Yes. If the appropriate equipment is in place then it really is quite difficult to see what the difference is (other than, on average, the London trains will usually be even busier). What do you see as the big problem ?

Interestingly I got first hand experience of being the guard on a train involved in a collision that disabled it recently. We were about 2 miles away from a station just outside a large market town with a large Network Rail Permanent Way depot but in a rural area with poor access.

I had just under 70 people on board, it was really rather hot and despite the fact that thanks to the wonders of modern technology the train's precise location was available to control using GPS it still took getting on for 90 minutes from the point of collision for the first external assistance to arrive.

In that time I found myself firstly having to care for a fairly distressed and inexperienced driver not long out on their own, making sure they'd completed their necessary duties as well as my own, talk down an angry man intent on evacuating the train onto the ballast with or without my consent into the middle of a ruptured fuel tank, care for and contact the parents of a number of unaccompanied minors who were to say the least rather worried, and spend half the time on the phone to control, Network Rail, driver managers, silver command more senior managers and anyone else who wanted my attention until we finally got things sorted.

Then I had to physically help clear the debris from under the train, help the driver conduct brake tests and wheel rotation tests and then accompany him in the cab once the train was patched up until we returned to the nearest station.

On arrival at the unmanned station I then had to go about transferring everyone to a replacement train as the Network Rail staff who had been helping we had left behind to make the line safe for traffic.

This has fixed heavily into my mind that outside the busiest metropolitan areas the support network is not in place and probably won't be to reduce the staffing on trains.

The best bit is that in less than 7 days I was stranded for more than 2 hours no less than 3 times.

 

[Bromley boy]

Im simply taking the objective view. Whether I like it or not, our role is changing and becoming far more customer focused.

I bet that goes down well in the messroom.

 

[northwichcat]

I bet that goes down well in the messroom.

Some of the younger and newer guards on Northern give the impression the doors distract them from doing their revenue duties, whereas with the older ones it's the reverse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

spend half the time on the phone to control, Network Rail, driver managers, silver command more senior managers and anyone else who wanted my attention

That sounds to me like a VERY broken process. As soon as you as a member of traincrew made one call to report what had happened, that should have been taken out of your hands and everything else put into place, with frequent updates sent to you on what was being done, when and why.

DOO or not DOO, that needs sorting out - you had other, more important things to do than to try to manage an incident while also physically dealing with it.

 

[northwichcat]

^ That wasn't my post that you quoted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

^ That wasn't my post that you quoted.

Fixed, I have no idea what happened there!

 

[Bromley boy]

Some of the younger and newer guards on Northern give the impression the doors distract them from doing their revenue duties, whereas with the older ones it's the reverse.

Switching to driver open guard close would solve a lot of the issues.

 

[Moonshot]

Some of the younger and newer guards on Northern give the impression the doors distract them from doing their revenue duties, whereas with the older ones it's the reverse.

Lot of truth in that.

 

[Moonshot]

I bet that goes down well in the messroom.

In my messroom, guards are of the opinion that drivers will take the financial reward for operating doors.

 

[scrapy]

RMT and Northern to go to Acas. Strikes remain on at present, although RMT have said they may be called off should progress be made.

 

[Moonshot]

RMT and Northern to go to Acas. Strikes remain on at present, although RMT have said they may be called off should progress be made.

Do they publish transcripts of meetings?

 

[a_c_skinner]

I am afraid that there are two logical mountains to climb:
1. DOO manifestly works well in the right circumstances
2. Guards can sometimes offer little added value to customers as it is possible to travel fairly long distances without seeing one, even if your trip is from one unmanned station to another.

For what it is worth I do think the norm should be a customer facing staff member on every train, certainly if the route has unstaffed stations.

 

[LowLevel]

That sounds to me like a VERY broken process. As soon as you as a member of traincrew made one call to report what had happened, that should have been taken out of your hands and everything else put into place, with frequent updates sent to you on what was being done, when and why.

DOO or not DOO, that needs sorting out - you had other, more important things to do than to try to manage an incident while also physically dealing with it.

Unfortunately when you're the person in charge (and generally that is the guard in incidents, the driver takes a more technical role) at an antisocial time of day in the middle of a field in a remote location you become the point of contact for most things, including but not limited to -

The welfare of any other crew and passengers particularly any vulnerabilities or medical issues
Confirming requirement and provision of supplies such as water to the train
The state of the train itself (usually while the driver is physically taking action especially if it's damaged, you're the one on the phone to the helpline).
Planning forward movement of the above
A hot one nowadays is feeding information regarding the possible need to evacuate the passengers from the train and planning and executing that depending on the available assistance should you need to do so

You effectively are the first responder to your own incident and that's what being a fully trained up competent guard is all about.

It really isn't the case of the cavalry turning up to help you out. The reason I made my post is to point out that you have to both manage your train and be the control's eyes and ears until someone manages to get to you.

The Network Rail mobile operations manager takes some of the pressure off when they arrive but I'm not under any illusions that I still need to perform until I'm relieved.

I was being kept aware of the status of responders but the response can only be as effective as the information they were provided with.

I was in the train checking tickets at the point of impact which wasn't a great experience but it was still better than for the poor driver and having a bit of experience didn't affect my ability to function.

 

[6Gman]

I wouldn't, but a train[1] is more similar to a bus than to a plane, so I don't agree with your rejection of the comparison.

Maybe so, but a train is very different from a bus in key areas. Principally that if a bus driver is incapacitated the passengers find themselves in an environment with which most, perhaps all, of them will be familiar AND where other vehicles are driven (one hopes) on line of sight.

Huge difference between 20 people exiting a bus on the A456 and 200 people exiting a 150 between Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel!

 

[woodmally]

I think Bromley Boy has furnished you well enough there, and as has been said enough times already, the money is not an answer, I have no personal desire to help enable my workmates to be got rid of, just so that foreign state rail can earn more money at the expense of safety.

Let's turn this all on its head. Would you go on Pilot Only Operated aircraft?

Well if you are comparing like with like then the guard should sit on the seat next to the driver for the whole journey. That's what happens on a plane. Is that what you are advocating?

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Switching to driver open guard close would solve a lot of the issues.

Or even better the Anglia deal where by every train has a safety critical guard but the driver operates the doors under normal circumstances. To me this is the perfect solution on all lines if they want the guard to be more customer facing as all the publicity says however it's more the case they want to phase on board staff out I think

 

[driver_m]

Absolute tosh.....because if that was right, then ASLEF would never have accepted DOO.

Thought you might react to that. I take it you're aware of what went on with the staff that have had to use the defibrillators on our services. Also the time with an XC service where a passenger killed someone, but the staff on board managed to both stop further casualties and prevented him escaping. Still think it's tosh? You probably thought I was going to mention Watford weren't you?!

With an attitude like that towards your own drivers, the old divide n conquer tactics have worked well.

 

[driver_m]

Well if you are comparing like with like then the guard should sit on the seat next to the driver for the whole journey. That's what happens on a plane. Is that what
you are advocating?

You do know that there are circumstances where we need a guard with us right? (Or a competent person according to the rule book where practible) examining OLE for damage for instance. A few occasions I've had them find trespassers when we've been cautioned for them, including a suicide attempt. Any more smart Alec comments you want to try with me?

 

[OxtedSignaller]

It's funny when I hear that ASLEF are so against DOO if that is the case it's funny how their drivers are more than happy to cross the picket lines every strike perhaps if they stayed true to their word and didn't the unions would be able to have a stronger fight against the companies

 

[driver_m]

It's funny when I hear that ASLEF are so against DOO if that is the case it's funny how their drivers are more than happy to cross the picket lines every strike perhaps if they stayed true to their word and didn't the unions would be able to have a stronger fight against the companies

You mean like what happens on Merseyrail when the drivers refuse to cross it?

 

[muz379]

Unfortunately when you're the person in charge (and generally that is the guard in incidents, the driver takes a more technical role) at an antisocial time of day in the middle of a field in a remote location you become the point of contact for most things, including but not limited to -

The welfare of any other crew and passengers particularly any vulnerabilities or medical issues
Confirming requirement and provision of supplies such as water to the train
The state of the train itself (usually while the driver is physically taking action especially if it's damaged, you're the one on the phone to the helpline).
Planning forward movement of the above
A hot one nowadays is feeding information regarding the possible need to evacuate the passengers from the train and planning and executing that depending on the available assistance should you need to do so

You effectively are the first responder to your own incident and that's what being a fully trained up competent guard is all about.

It really isn't the case of the cavalry turning up to help you out. The reason I made my post is to point out that you have to both manage your train and be the control's eyes and ears until someone manages to get to you.

The Network Rail mobile operations manager takes some of the pressure off when they arrive but I'm not under any illusions that I still need to perform until I'm relieved.

I was being kept aware of the status of responders but the response can only be as effective as the information they were provided with.

I was in the train checking tickets at the point of impact which wasn't a great experience but it was still better than for the poor driver and having a bit of experience didn't affect my ability to function.

Excellent post and just shows one of the major parts of the role which really is yet to be redundant . Whenever there is any out of course situation , even just minor train fault between stations the driver has other tasks which take precedent over keeping the passengers informed . If nobody informs the passengers then they are going to start making plans of their own . We have seen that time and time again .

If anything in the modern information now age , with passengers expecting solutions and information immediately having a person there to manage that and as best as practicable stop an uncontrolled evacuation really is if anything even more valuable .

As you correctly identify , you are controls eyes and ears on the ground keeping them informed of developments be it rectification of a fault , worsening of weather conditions , or growing unrest among passengers among the other possibilities .
Even after the MOM and other network rail staff have arrived you are still the primary contact for your own TOCs control and are still responsible for dealing with the welfare of passengers and other staff on your train until the train is moving again or an evacuation is carried out .

Proper route , traction and rules knowledge is what underpins the ability to be able to manage a situation such as that . Take that away and just give someone a PTS card and an intensive retail/customer service course and it wont be a surprise when day to day situations like that get out of hand on a regular basis .

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's funny when I hear that ASLEF are so against DOO if that is the case it's funny how their drivers are more than happy to cross the picket lines every strike perhaps if they stayed true to their word and didn't the unions would be able to have a stronger fight against the companies

Do you seriously expect them to get the sack? As that is what would happen.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Do you seriously expect them to get the sack? As that is what would happen.

They would not get the sack and drivers who are strongly against DOO regularly refuse to cross the picket lines and the company is unlikely to put themselves in dispute with ASLEF. My point is if ASLEF members are so against DOO as they make out they would not cross the picketline as said has happened on Merseyrail. I am not saying drivers or anybody for that matter should be obliged to I just do not buy the rhetoric about how against they are when it you look at Southern they agreed a deal allowing it and we have not seen the full effects of the deal as you will find they can remove OBS off any of the trains whilst on the BML which they regularly do now to keep within the deal.

 

[muz379]

Do you seriously expect them to get the sack? As that is what would happen.

Not happened at Merseyrail yet ?

Also heard of a small handful of Northern Drivers not crossing (even more vulnerable to such employer action) and nothing has happened

Although ASLEF are not in dispute and their members are not called out and thus are expected to work normally during strike action I expect that the union would back any member that faced disciplinary action for taking the decision to not cross a picket line .

 

[Moonshot]

How many of the UKs 25000 daily train services are run as a DOO operation?

 

[Carlisle]

TAlso the time with an XC service where a passenger killed someone, but the staff on board managed to both stop further casualties and prevented him escaping. .

If correct, surely funding a fully equipped BTP officer on most or all trains would be more appropriate going forward, as a traditional guard is unlikley to be expert in dealing with this type of tragedy any more than perhaps a shop assistant/ bar tender or bank clerk etc whose unfortunately come across a similar type of incident during their career.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If correct, surely funding a fully equipped BTP officer on most or all trains would be more appropriate going forward, as a traditional guard is unlikley to be expert in dealing with this type of tragedy any more than perhaps a shop assistant/ bar tender or bank clerk etc whose had to face a similar type of incident during their career.

I was on a rural train late yesterday evening (I won't say where as the Police were involved and I don't want to prejudice any investigation, but it wasn't the Marston Vale; far from it) when a drunk passenger boarded, made a nuisance of himself and assaulted the guard in some way, I *think* when asked to cough up his fare. Unfortunately I only found out that the latter had happened after the event otherwise I would have assisted (it took place in the rear vestibule with the door closed).

It did occur to me as to what might have happened if it had been a DOO train. In the event the guard retreated to the back cab for his own safety; the driver briefly checked on him, but the next sight of a member of staff was when the Police (local rather than BTP I think) showed up and dragged him off. Certainly neither the driver nor the guard was in a position to properly assist had he caused issued for a passenger, but there were 3 reasonably sized blokes (me plus 2 others) in the coach who probably would have assisted had we known what was going on. There was a small mixed group in the front coach who weren't aware of what was going on.

 

[Robertj21a]

I was on a rural train late yesterday evening (I won't say where as the Police were involved and I don't want to prejudice any investigation, but it wasn't the Marston Vale; far from it) when a drunk passenger boarded, made a nuisance of himself and assaulted the guard in some way, I *think* when asked to cough up his fare. Unfortunately I only found out that the latter had happened after the event otherwise I would have assisted (it took place in the rear vestibule with the door closed).

It did occur to me as to what might have happened if it had been a DOO train. In the event the guard retreated to the back cab for his own safety; the driver briefly checked on him, but the next sight of a member of staff was when the Police (local rather than BTP I think) showed up and dragged him off. Certainly neither the driver nor the guard was in a position to properly assist had he caused issued for a passenger, but there were 3 reasonably sized blokes (me plus 2 others) in the coach who probably would have assisted had we known what was going on. There was a small mixed group in the front coach who weren't aware of what was going on.

If it had been DOO then there wouldn't have been any 'confrontation' if the matter arose from any revenue issue !

 

[Gareth Marston]

If it had been DOO then there wouldn't have been any 'confrontation' if the matter arose from any revenue issue !

Should me make train travel free in rural areas then?

 

[driver_m]

Excellent point was made on the wnxx forum the other day. You can't have DOO in Absolute block areas. So have a guess at what services are unable to use it......... (On the west side, it's rather a lot) But for a kickstart, absolutely nothing through Stockport.