Arriva Rail North DOO

[driver_m]

@Bromley boy was trying to claim those who sit in front of a computer are isolated from the real world, I was merely pointing out they are often less cut off than someone who works in a train cab by themselves and talks to other rail staff during their breaks.

Nah, that's a rubbish comparison, is totally off topic, and when you asked for examples the poster underneath agreed with me. As I've said before, this thread is pointless like the strikes themselves, until the drivers get asked, and may as well get locked.

 

[Robertj21a]

How do you know there is no rail management.......

I said 'very little' - not 'no'.

 

[Robertj21a]

I've heard everything now. Cut off from the real world...... How are we supposed to answer that? A 4 pinter of milk is just over a quid in most of the supermarkets? I pay my butler the living wage? Demand my m&m's to be fetched into the cab minus any blue ones?

As for the other stuff. Managers do go on here. They're obviously not going to say anything, but we know they monitor these sites. Goes without saying that it's not a particularly sensible thing to bite the hand that feeds but I've no need to anyway.

Well, if managers are on here - and don't say anything - we're back to square one !

Hence my comment about why managers (but not in rail) are trying to balance out some of the rather crazy comments that sometimes appear on here - only to usually be told that we don't know anything.....

 

[northwichcat]

Nah, that's a rubbish comparison, is totally off topic, and when you asked for examples the poster underneath agreed with me. As I've said before, this thread is pointless like the strikes themselves, until the drivers get asked, and may as well get locked.

Oh you must talk to 20 or 30 people in person while sat in your cab then, just like it's possible to do while sat at a computer. :roll:

So because a train driver agrees with another train driver (presumably both ASLEF members) that overall the posts from non-rail staff aren't politically balanced and are in fact overall right wing it must be true. Honestly these arguments are getting weak and pathetic.

 

[B&I]

Even without going into the staff thing, to say that the non-railway staff on here are balanced, is quite frankly, ludicrous. A few are balanced, undoubtedly, but I'd say there's a distinct right wing bias to the more controversial threads on here amongst non rail staff.

If you were to do a snapshot of train drivers now, you would be surprised at the number who are right wing, and unashamedly Tory. (Unfortunately in my view) Not at my depot, where if there are, they're well hidden, but it's not hard to find. However, I do find hard left non staff posters on here, few and far between. Maybe B&I is the most left wing that I can think of.

Interesting; as I don't regard myself as particularly left wing, being in favour of a mixed economy with state provision of universal public services such as health and education, and natural monopolies such as water and railways (but not, for example, telecoms) and private provision of everything else (with state regulation as appropriate). However, views like this make you a communistic nutcase in our current political climate generally, and im the eyes of some.on this forum too

 

[Bromley boy]

Can you honestly not see the difference? I'm talking about some people getting labelled right wing for criticising the RMT, which I'm saying is ironic when their regional organiser has right wing views.

You made the generalisation that people get labelled right wing for criticising the RMT. I then countered that those who post arguments that are sympathetic to the position of unions are equally often accused of being hard left. No more, no less than that.

Your own posting below from earlier on this thread is a case in point, made in response to use of a perfectly middle of the road phrase I have used myself (and I am far from “far left”):

Race to the bottom - the term union members use when they can't make justifiable arguments. If you want to be taken seriously perhaps use more verifiable claims like the stalling or slowing down of the race to improve pay and conditions. To anyone who isn't a far left union member the 'race to the bottom' term sounds worse than some of what top level management say which everyone knows is a blatant lie.

You then made the ridiculous assertion that non-rail staff on here are more pollticially balanced than railstaff. I know rather more railstaff than you (you know none by your own admission) and I am telling you that viewpoint is incorrect, and is clearly intended to be divisive.

I have made a number of posts on this forum criticising the stance of the RMT, their failure to recognise the OBS role and the need to be more pragmatic. I’ve yet to see a “balanced” posting on these issues from you.

Your own bias is very evident for anyone who follows these forums. I’ve seen you accusing the RMT of being misleading by referring to rule book terminology “DO trains”, demanding that train drivers justify their salary to you, continually attacking unions, attacking staff T’ and C’s in an industry you don’t even work in yourself. The list goes on.

I find your stance truly bizarre.

 

[Bromley boy]

Managers do go on here.

Some of them also post.

The Thameslink managers are lying low at the moment .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting; as I don't regard myself as particularly left wing, being in favour of a mixed economy with state provision of universal public services such as health and education, and natural monopolies such as water and railways (but not, for example, telecoms) and private provision of everything else (with state regulation as appropriate). However, views like this make you a communistic nutcase in our current political climate generally, and im the eyes of some.on this forum too

That's about where I sit. Such sensible centre-ground moderation seems to be deprecated in the highly polarised world of 2018's politics.

 

[northwichcat]

You then made the ridiculous assertion that non-rail staff on here are more pollticially balanced than railstaff. I know rather more railstaff than you (you know none by your own admission) and I am telling you that viewpoint is incorrect, and is clearly intended to be divisive.

No I didn't. I said overall the non-rail staff who post on here seem to be politically balanced after you attacked them. You presumed I was implying that all rail staff are left wing but I didn't say that (not everyone can be labelled either left wing or right wing.) So you're arguing with your own presumption about what I was thinking - you're effectively arguing with yourself and pretending you're arguing with me!

 

[PHILIPE]

Perhaps we could close the thread for now and re-open it in the far distant future when some progress could be made

 

[Bromley boy]

No I didn't. I said overall the non-rail staff who post on here seem to be politically balanced after you attacked them. You presumed I was implying that all rail staff are left wing but I didn't say that (not everyone can be labelled either left wing or right wing.) So you're arguing with your own presumption about what I was thinking - you're effectively arguing with yourself and pretending you're arguing with me!

Wrong again.

In posts #3527 and #3528 we were both talking about users of this forum generally.

Post #3529 (your posting) was the first mention of railstaff as a group which you then generalised as being less politically balanced than non railstaff (even though you don’t actually know any railstaff).

This is an incredibly boring argument and the postings speak for themselves for anyone who is bored enough to go back and read them.

 

[Bromley boy]

That's about where I sit. Such sensible centre-ground moderation seems to be deprecated in the highly polarised world of 2018's politics.

Likewise I am in favour of:

- small (devolved) government with minimal regulation and interference in peoples’ lives;

- a mixed economy with both state and private sectors which balances the need for the profit motive with decent rights for workers/employees etc.

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps we could close the thread for now and re-open it in the far distant future when some progress could be made

Unfortunately I doubt the RMT will take the advice of Burnham and Rotheram and they'll be more strike days and more emergency timetables to post.

Wrong again.

In posts #3527 and #3528 we were both talking about users of this forum generally.

Post #3529 (your posting) was the first mention of railstaff as a group which you then generalised as being less politically balanced than non railstaff (even though you don’t actually know any railstaff).

This is an incredibly boring argument and the postings speak for themselves for anyone who is bored enough to go back and read them.

Yes it is. I don't know why you keep trying to read between the lines of what I post, draw your own conclusions and then insist I've said more than I have. I guess you're just one of those people who can't accept their own mistake and has to try and make it sound like it was someone else who is to blame. You wouldn't happen to be divorced would you?

Oh and please don't spend all night searching my previous posts in the hope you can find something that may very slightly hint that I contradicted something I said two years previously, like you did in the EU thread.

 

[Carlisle]

. . And also implying that railstaff on here are not politically balanced.

Id have thought it’d be a pretty tough call arguing there’s equal political balance amongst rail staff, particularly as their largest union in recent times continually seems to elect arguably the most hardline and far left leaders in that business .

 

[LowLevel]

I'm a current guard and ex manager - I even worked for something called a 'transformation team' developing and implementing (enforcing?) new internal processes in the civil service. I was once called a number of quite impressive profanities by a colleague I would consider a friend even now (and they meant it) whilst presenting a workshop to a room full of people. I believe it's called 'life'.

It means I can even see where individuals are coming from (I count several people I know have been instrumental in implementing DOO as friends and have spent a number of hours debating over a pint). I still vociferously disagree with them

I do think some people on here fail to appreciate the internet in terms of what could probably legitimately be called keyboard warrioring, releasing pent up frustrations and so on. I'm nowhere near as loud in real life.

Though I do have a colleague who actually called out Chris Grayling in person while he was visiting a station over his dishonesty about his department contracting train staffing methods when they insist it's a matter for the train operator. That required some stones.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes it is. I don't know why you keep trying to read between the lines of what I post, draw your own conclusions and then insist I've said more than I have. I guess you're just one of those people who can't accept their own mistake and has to try and make it sound like it was someone else who is to blame. You wouldn't happen to be divorced would you?

Sorry for the late reply.

I’ve interpreted your posts and duly replied. What “mistake” would that be? Please can you expand on “my own mistake”, in detail!? I will respond accordingly.

Since you ask, no, I’m not divorced (I’m single, mortgage almost paid off at 35), are you still gainfully unemployed?!

Oh and please don't spend all night searching my previous posts in the hope you can find something that may very slightly hint that I contradicted something I said two years previously, like you did in the EU thread.

It doesn’t take all night with your post count. Trust me.

 

[Killingworth]

How about getting back to the issues? As a passenger all I see is the cancellation of 10% of Northern trains on my line again this month, that caused by RMT action for reasons I still can't fully understand and statements from the employer saying they don't want to take staff off most trains.

If the trains are so unsafe without a conductor how are DOO trains of 12 coaches operating with few reported incidents elsewhere?

If a train needs to have a guard for the protection of passengers how can they be protected in just 2 carriages of a train of 4 coaches without an inter-connection?

If it's about job security, how is it that all staff have been assured there's a job for them as long as the franchise lasts?

If it's all so straightforward why is it the employees are not being won over?

Please don't try to answer these questions as they've all been asked and answered on here many times before. It's not contributions on here that will solve the dispute.

After over 3500 postings these, and many other questions, have been raised often but without answers acceptable to all sides. There used to be an organisation called ACAS, I think I saw some offices near Piccadilly when I was there earlier this week.

Please can someone get the two sides together, round a table, at ACAS, in a hotel, the end of Blackpool Pier, a local pub, MacDonalds, the local park bench and get them to start talking. There will be some areas on which all can agree so let's start fom there.

All this yah boo, he said, I said, no I didn't, yes you did, left wing, right wing (no fuselage? ah, perhaps that's the problem) stuff isn't getting us anywhere.

Come on RMT and Northern. Let's have a date and a venue, no pre-conditions other than to find two simple things that can be totally agreed and slowly work from there while staff can work without losing any more pay and passengers can have trains to travel on.

If you don't, passengers aren't going to travel any more, so everyone loses. It's happening already.

 

[Carlisle]

Id say these strikes differ considerably from most workplace disputes that flare up reslting in a ballot for industrial action. Here unions knew several years ago that changes of this type were in the pipeline, and given DOO on the mainline had existed for around 35 years, almost exactly what new roles they were likley to be offered in return, so they’ve had a long time to plan their strategies and draw up their negotiating red lines accordingly, meaning ACAS has an almost impossible task in finding a genuine compromise here.

 

[Robertj21a]

How about getting back to the issues? As a passenger all I see is the cancellation of 10% of Northern trains on my line again this month, that caused by RMT action for reasons I still can't fully understand and statements from the employer saying they don't want to take staff off most trains.

If the trains are so unsafe without a conductor how are DOO trains of 12 coaches operating with few reported incidents elsewhere?

If a train needs to have a guard for the protection of passengers how can they be protected in just 2 carriages of a train of 4 coaches without an inter-connection?

If it's about job security, how is it that all staff have been assured there's a job for them as long as the franchise lasts?

If it's all so straightforward why is it the employees are not being won over?

Please don't try to answer these questions as they've all been asked and answered on here many times before. It's not contributions on here that will solve the dispute.

After over 3500 postings these, and many other questions, have been raised often but without answers acceptable to all sides. There used to be an organisation called ACAS, I think I saw some offices near Piccadilly when I was there earlier this week.

Please can someone get the two sides together, round a table, at ACAS, in a hotel, the end of Blackpool Pier, a local pub, MacDonalds, the local park bench and get them to start talking. There will be some areas on which all can agree so let's start fom there.

All this yah boo, he said, I said, no I didn't, yes you did, left wing, right wing (no fuselage? ah, perhaps that's the problem) stuff isn't getting us anywhere.

Come on RMT and Northern. Let's have a date and a venue, no pre-conditions other than to find two simple things that can be totally agreed and slowly work from there while staff can work without losing any more pay and passengers can have trains to travel on.

If you don't, passengers aren't going to travel any more, so everyone loses. It's happening already.

While I quite agree with much of what you say I fear that it falls down on finding 'Two simple things that can be totally agreed'.

Not much chance of that unless it's just an agreement on what the date is !!
I fear that this will just drag on for years to come.

 

[Killingworth]

While I quite agree with much of what you say I fear that it falls down on finding 'Two simple things that can be totally agreed'.

Not much chance of that unless it's just an agreement on what the date is !!
I fear that this will just drag on for years to come.

2 simple things. We all want to run trains. We all want our staff/members to have secure jobs.

 

[HowardGWR]

A job that only lasts until the end of the franchise isn't a secure job. Perhaps start there, if that is a problem. The ITT for the next franchise could specify that that this must be the case under TUPE. The Government could announce that today. What the employees have to do for their secure job is a separate matter. I haven't heard that OBS duties are more severe than guard duties.

As an aside, on another line the other day, I was pleased to see the OBS, having checked tickets, stand outside the door at each station, closely watching and assisting pax, and when I asked him why, he said, 'I just do it as a back-up for the man up front, when I have the opportunity'.

 

[Moonshot]

A job that only lasts until the end of the franchise isn't a secure job. Perhaps start there, if that is a problem. The ITT for the next franchise could specify that that this must be the case under TUPE. The Government could announce that today. What the employees have to do for their secure job is a separate matter. I haven't heard that OBS duties are more severe than guard duties.

As an aside, on another line the other day, I was pleased to see the OBS, having checked tickets, stand outside the door at each station, closely watching and assisting pax, and when I asked him why, he said, 'I just do it as a back-up for the man up front, when I have the opportunity'.

There is no such thing as a secure job, absolutely anyone can find themselves in a position where their own job is being delisted. That's reality. Unions cannot protect employees from exogenous forces.

 

[northwichcat]

How about getting back to the issues?

Agreed. Related to what the RMT recently brought up about the TOC getting reimbursed for financial losses due to DCO strikes, how exactly does that work?

For instance, last Tuesday and Wednesday the annual Cheshire County Show was on which has shuttle buses running from Knutsford, Northwich and Hartford stations. How is it is possible to estimate how much revenue Northern lost as a result of the industrial action? Visitor numbers vary from year to year, some people may have travelled as normal on Tuesday, others may have travelled on Wednesday instead, some may have routed their journey differently (to arrive at LNW served Hartford instead), some may have travelled by car instead of train etc. Then consideration should to be given to the fact Northern chose to operate no trains between Manchester and Altrincham via Stockport - they could have operated some trains in lieu of some services elsewhere if they had chosen to.

 

[northwichcat]

A job that only lasts until the end of the franchise isn't a secure job. Perhaps start there, if that is a problem. The ITT for the next franchise could specify that that this must be the case under TUPE. The Government could announce that today. What the employees have to do for their secure job is a separate matter. I haven't heard that OBS duties are more severe than guard duties.

Like I said in an earlier post rail staff have been lucky in recent years as increased demand has meant more services and consequently more jobs. However, a guarantee of lifetime employment would mean if there was a sharp drop in usage and services were cut back as a result there would be train crews being paid to sit around doing nothing.

Also like I've said previously the government can make a guarantee but a guarantee from the government could become void at the next general election. Other than delivering the EU referendum, most of what David Cameron promised if the Conservatives won the 2015 General Election hasn't been delivered and won't be delivered either, mainly due to a number of the policies being incompatible with leaving the EU.

 

[woodmally]

How about getting back to the issues? As a passenger all I see is the cancellation of 10% of Northern trains on my line again this month, that caused by RMT action for reasons I still can't fully understand and statements from the employer saying they don't want to take staff off most trains.

If the trains are so unsafe without a conductor how are DOO trains of 12 coaches operating with few reported incidents elsewhere?

If a train needs to have a guard for the protection of passengers how can they be protected in just 2 carriages of a train of 4 coaches without an inter-connection?

If it's about job security, how is it that all staff have been assured there's a job for them as long as the franchise lasts?

If it's all so straightforward why is it the employees are not being won over?

Please don't try to answer these questions as they've all been asked and answered on here many times before. It's not contributions on here that will solve the dispute.

After over 3500 postings these, and many other questions, have been raised often but without answers acceptable to all sides. There used to be an organisation called ACAS, I think I saw some offices near Piccadilly when I was there earlier this week.

Please can someone get the two sides together, round a table, at ACAS, in a hotel, the end of Blackpool Pier, a local pub, MacDonalds, the local park bench and get them to start talking. There will be some areas on which all can agree so let's start fom there.

All this yah boo, he said, I said, no I didn't, yes you did, left wing, right wing (no fuselage? ah, perhaps that's the problem) stuff isn't getting us anywhere.

Come on RMT and Northern. Let's have a date and a venue, no pre-conditions other than to find two simple things that can be totally agreed and slowly work from there while staff can work without losing any more pay and passengers can have trains to travel on.

If you don't, passengers aren't going to travel any more, so everyone loses. It's happening already.

Firstly as a fellow passenger I have nothing but sympathy. However there will be no negotiation as there is nothing to negotiate. Northern have it written in the franchuse agreement to implement DOO and there is nothing they can do to change it. RMT cannot accept this and they are striking even though they cannot win. And yes Ive repeatedly ask how they can win to some RMT comrades but been met with the classic response of they will carry on fighting regardless. Hence the only way this will be resolved is when DOO is implemented and the reason for the strike becomes a mute point.

 

[IanXC]

I'm glad to see we are back on topic, but as a reminder, this thread is about DOO proposals on Northern, if anyone wishes to further debate the changing political spectrum of the UK, or any other issues unrelated to DOO on Northern please create a new thread.

Thanks

 

[Killingworth]

OK, the issue is, apparently, beyond resolution. Let me digress, temporarily. There's an old saying about Mohammed and a mountain. It's worth considering that saying - Google it.

However it reminds me that it's high season for those heading out into our northern hills. To take the Pennine Way from Edale up the spine of England into Scotland, crossing several Northern routes along the way. How to get to Edale without a car - by train of course. But not by Northern for 3 days this week. What's their advice? It's priceless.

"If you are planning to travel from Edale Station on 23 June, please check the information below for details of strike services.

Details for travel on 23 June
— Alternative Transport
Local Bus: Make your way to Hope Castleton Road Church to catch the 273/274 to Sheffield Interchange"

Making my way to Hope is almost 5 miles by narrow roads without footpaths. It's a nice scenic walk to climb to Hollins Cross and along the ridge to Lose Hill before descending to Hope at just on 4 miles to catch that bus. At Lose Hill I'd be able to look over the Edale valley to Win Hill on the other side. Or maybe having got to Hollins Cross I might descend 2.5 miles to Castleton and get a bus from there.

A nice start or finish to a day out for those who are fit, but check the frequency of that 273/274 route; https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/timetables/sheffield/797.htm

I'd use the 271/272; https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/timetables/sheffield/796.htm

However, neither is much of a substitute for an hourly train taking far less time and in more comfort - for walkers from the west side it might even be better to walk over the top to get a bus in Chinley!

Thank the powers above for seeing through this nonsense and arranging for East Midlands to stop a few trains on strike days. It would be good if Northern let the public know the best options; https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/stations/EDL#station-extra

Enough of this digression, perhaps. I said 2 things Northern and RMT could agree on to start the ball rolling. Both must surely want to run trains and everyone wants to maximise their job security.

There are two hills noted above, Win and Lose. At present both sides are losing public support. ACAS seems to be a waste of space for this one.

I publically offer to meet David Brown and Mick Cash at Edale station and guide them, just them, no note takers, as they make their way to catch a bus in Hope. I'd take them over Lose Hill, but if they'd like a longer walk we could add in Mam Tor. I hope that after 5 miles they'd see they have a lot in common, and might even see ways they could work together to resolve their differences and enlist help from other parties to resolve the rest. If they couldn't agree anything by Lose Hill they'd have to carry on to Win Hill! They'd certainly enjoy some fresh air to think.

Win or Lose? We must all live in Hope that this dispute really is capable of resolution.

David and Mick, when will it be? I'm serious about this, my boots are ready, are yours?

 

[superkev]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of doo I can't help thinking Cash and co have led there members sheep like down a path that like miners, bus conductors, Leyland car workers before them hey are unlikely to win.
Personally I think in the UK s litigation culture it's a matter of size. 2 car ok, 12 car no no. Perhaps a compromise.
K

 

[LOL The Irony]

I wonder when the RMT will realise they are turning the passengers against themselves, aka shooting themselves in the foot. If the RMT don't want DOO, why are they creating a situation where the passengers want DOO?

Thanks,
Someone who is waiting for a reduced timetable train.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

A job that only lasts until the end of the franchise isn't a secure job. Perhaps start there, if that is a problem. The ITT for the next franchise could specify that that this must be the case under TUPE. The Government could announce that today. What the employees have to do for their secure job is a separate matter. I haven't heard that OBS duties are more severe than guard duties.

As an aside, on another line the other day, I was pleased to see the OBS, having checked tickets, stand outside the door at each station, closely watching and assisting pax, and when I asked him why, he said, 'I just do it as a back-up for the man up front, when I have the opportunity'.

Is it not a secure job? They are guaranteed a job until March 2025 at the very minimum bearing in mind it would not be surprising if there was a franchise extension and then even when a new franchisee takes over like what is happening now it is not all going to change overnight. So I would say your looking at a near enough 9 year guarantee which is more than can be said for most jobs. Southern on the other hand are only guaranteed to 2021 and there is a big difference there will still be a large number of guards required on Northern even after Northern Connect is complete on non electrified routes where as on Southern once the 313s are gone they will only be required on the Uckfield branch, Marshlink and Milton Keynes if it hasn't been transferred to TfL. They could possibly secure all guards jobs and recruit or take volunteers for the new on board role but even that wouldn't satisfy the RMT who are not open for any compromise and I have said it before they will not help the members as they refuse to negotiate and the company simply imposes inferior terms and conditions.