Arriva Rail North DOO

[Carlisle]

• Bring out the word 'scab' and it's like kryptonite to some of the right-wingers who populate this board. I make no apologies for using it. If you are in a union and you go directly against it by working during action that the union members have democratically voted for, then you are directly harming it. In which case, leave the union if you don't want to be called a scab. It's like being a member of a political party, if you can't agree with some of its main views, then leave it if you can't accept that view, otherwise fall in.

I don’t believe in reality it’s quite that simple, northern staff themselves have explained on here anyone crossing picket lines whether union members or not can end up being treated with similar disdain in the mess room etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most companies don't have a zero growth business plan and any that did wouldn't be around for long. In an ever evolving world its only right and proper for organisations to improve efficiency and profitability. However this should never in my opinion be done at the expense of those who actually do the work and if the company is improving its profitability then this should be shared across the board. And of course safety should never be put before profit and I have yet to hear of a compelling evidence based independent report which says DOO is safe in the 21st century.

Have you heard of a compelling evidence based independent report that says it isn't?

(A report commissioned on behalf of a Union or indeed a TOC/DfT/ATOC/anyone else with a vested interest does not class as "independent" - so it's unlikely there will be one!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t believe in reality it’s quite that simple, northern staff themselves have explained on here anyone crossing picket lines whether union members or not can end up being treated with similar disdain in the mess room etc

And it wouldn't surprise me if non-members were villified generally. It's illegal to have a formal closed shop, but it's not unusual to have a de-facto one based on employee bullying (and yes, I believe bullying is the right term).

 

[Eccles1983]

I don’t believe in reality it’s quite that simple, northern staff themselves have explained on here anyone crossing picket lines whether union members or not can end up being treated with similar disdain in the mess room etc

Need to see some evidence of non union members being called a scab or treated with distain as you put it. - You know in the interest of fairness.

 

[northwichcat]

• Bring out the word 'scab' and it's like kryptonite to some of the right-wingers who populate this board. I make no apologies for using it. If you are in a union and you go directly against it by working during action that the union members have democratically voted for, then you are directly harming it. In which case, leave the union if you don't want to be called a scab. It's like being a member of a political party, if you can't agree with some of its main views, then leave it if you can't accept that view, otherwise fall in.

Not sure what board you're looking at. This is one of the most left wing forums in existence where even centre-left views seem right wing in comparison to what some people say. I remember when Dave1987 used to be post on here about being a Conservative voter who admired Cameron (his views seem to have changed since) and the response he got from some was like he was an extremist.

 

[Tractor2018]

its only right and proper for organisations to improve efficiency and profitability. However this should never in my opinion be done at the expense of those who actually do the work and if the company is improving its profitability then this should be shared across the board.

How dare you - throwing about common sense philosophies of moral and ethical justice, and ones which encourage social mobility too! Whatever next?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure what board you're looking at. This is one of the most left wing forums in existence where even centre-left views seem right wing in comparison to what some people say. I remember when Dave1987 used to be post on here about being a Conservative voter who admired Cameron (his views seem to have changed since) and the response he got from some was like he was an extremist.

You've got a point there. While I'm not a Trade Unionist[1], I am slightly left of centre politically, probably best aligned to one of the European social democratic parties that do well over there, or perhaps the SNP with a degree of the nanny-stateism lopped out. But I do feel like I'm quite a way to the right so far as these forums go.

[1] I don't object to them either, but I don't think they should be tied up in party politics, and I don't think they always get what they fight for quite right - often they take a line that is almost Luddism rather than simply trying to protect their current members as they should.

 

[Bromley boy]

[1] I don't object to them either, but I don't think they should be tied up in party politics, and I don't think they always get what they fight for quite right - often they take a line that is almost Luddism rather than simply trying to protect their current members as they should.

That is a sensible view which you’d find a great many TU members (as opposed to the leadership) would agree with.

I’m probably further to the right than you are politically (I’m right of centre on most issues) but I don’t find that remotely incompatible with TU membership. I certainly don’t agree with my particular union’s political stance on many issues (supporting Labour in its current form, renationalising the railways, blathering on about Palestine/Israel etc.)

 

[Chester1]

• Bring out the word 'scab' and it's like kryptonite to some of the right-wingers who populate this board. I make no apologies for using it. If you are in a union and you go directly against it by working during action that the union members have democratically voted for, then you are directly harming it. In which case, leave the union if you don't want to be called a scab. It's like being a member of a political party, if you can't agree with some of its main views, then leave it if you can't accept that view, otherwise fall in.

I don’t believe in reality it’s quite that simple, northern staff themselves have explained on here anyone crossing picket lines whether union members or not can end up being treated with similar disdain in the mess room etc

If it is simply a case of what driver_M describes then thats fair enough because a unions strength comes from collective action. However, what other members have described goes futher than that to ill treatment of non union members. Personally I would quit the PCS if it got milltant and try to find another union that allows Civil Servants to join. If people want to bully, ostracise and intimidate collegues then they should expect to be treated as backward and relics of the past. As for right wingers, its pretty clear that plenty of members think anyone who isn't a socialist is right wing. I am a Lib Dem and a trade union member. The remenants of the old left repulse me but it doesn't make me right wing or a Tory!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’m probably further to the right than you are politically (I’m right of centre on most issues) but I don’t find that remotely incompatible with TU membership. I certainly don’t agree with my particular union’s political stance on many issues (supporting Labour in its current form, renationalising the railways, blathering on about Palestine/Israel etc.)

I always appreciated being able to opt out of the political fund when I was a member of Unison. I don't have a problem with TUs funding Labour- the bosses fund the Conservatives, after all- but members should have the right not to fund them if they don't want to.

In terms of "scabbing", my views depend on whether you're in the union or not. If you're not, crack on, none of my business. If you are in the union, though, I don't have so much tolerance. "Scabbing" undermines any strike action. Why join an organisation and then actively undermine it? If you don't agree with the way the organisation is going then leave it. But don't demand the benefits of the organisation and then stab everyone in the back when it suits you.

 

[Bookd]

In any negotiation one should try to see the other party's point of view, and the global position, to achieve a solution.

It seems to me that the RMT policy is of old fashioned self destructing strikes, although admittedly they might be on stronger ground.

A long time ago shipyard workers would stop the job if a platelayer touched a job that belonged to a welder and so on - ships could be bought from Korea etc. so a lot of the shipbuilding industry was done for."

Arthur Scargill killed the mining industry - less aggravation to buy coal from elsewhere.

Red Robbo finished off the traditional car industry by striking at every opportunity and turning out slapdash work (although that has come back better than before on a Greenfield basis without all the old trappings)

Rail workers may think that they are indispensable at present but if they push the envelope too far government may look for alternatives
The nuclear solution would be that of Ronald Reagan and the Air Traffic Controllers ( air being as important in the U.S. as rail is here)
He sacked the lot - enough were prepared to sign new contracts to keep a basic service going, and by slimming the rulebook and accelerated training things were soon back to normal.
(Incidentally during that dispute I flew from London to San Francisco in sight of land all the way, and saw lots that I would not have done otherwise!).

 

[Bromley boy]

I always appreciated being able to opt out of the political fund when I was a member of Unison. I don't have a problem with TUs funding Labour- the bosses fund the Conservatives, after all- but members should have the right not to fund them if they don't want to.

In terms of "scabbing", my views depend on whether you're in the union or not. If you're not, crack on, none of my business. If you are in the union, though, I don't have so much tolerance. "Scabbing" undermines any strike action. Why join an organisation and then actively undermine it? If you don't agree with the way the organisation is going then leave it. But don't demand the benefits of the organisation and then stab everyone in the back when it suits you.

Agreed.

Much as I dislike the term “scab”, I don’t blame union members turning against colleagues who are prepared to take the benefits of membership but undermine the union in the event of an industrial dispute.

 

[LOL The Irony]

• Bring out the word 'scab' and it's like kryptonite to some of the right-wingers who populate this board. I make no apologies for using it. If you are in a union and you go directly against it by working during action that the union members have democratically voted for, then you are directly harming it. In which case, leave the union if you don't want to be called a scab. It's like being a member of a political party, if you can't agree with some of its main views, then leave it if you can't accept that view, otherwise fall in.

So no prizes for guessing who this guy votes for?

 

[northwichcat]

If it is simply a case of what driver_M describes then thats fair enough because a unions strength comes from collective action. However, what other members have described goes futher than that to ill treatment of non union members. Personally I would quit the PCS if it got milltant and try to find another union that allows Civil Servants to join. If people want to bully, ostracise and intimidate collegues then they should expect to be treated as backward and relics of the past. As for right wingers, its pretty clear that plenty of members think anyone who isn't a socialist is right wing. I am a Lib Dem and a trade union member. The remenants of the old left repulse me but it doesn't make me right wing or a Tory!

My father was a PCS member and didn't like Tony Blair leading the Labour Party rather than someone more left wing but even he saw some industrial action as nonconstructive. He didn't live to see the DOO disputes but was critical of the approach the CWU took against Royal Mail in the dispute in the 00s and he wasn't overly keen on Bob Crow's media appearances either.

 

[driver_m]

So no prizes for guessing who this guy votes for?

Hi. Don't speak about me like I'm not here. It's rude. Yes, I am a paid up member of Labour if that's what you wanted to know.

As an aside, whoever mentioned the point about non members is actually wrong about them being vilified. Can again only speak on what I found, but I knew of 2 non union members and we knew the situation if a strike arose and actually respected their actions should a strike ever have been called, as they would have been put in a very awkward situation. It's those who join up at strike action and leave again during the peace that there is more contempt for.

 

[Tractor2018]

It's those who join up at strike action and leave again during the peace that there is more contempt for.

Or leave during strikes, so they feel able to work strike days - everybody loses wages in the fight except them, then they benefit from the won terms. I've not yet seen it with ASLEF, but I've seen that and more with RMT. Stinks. One such person near me is due to retire. I hope he's not expecting much from his goodbye sheet.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Hi. Don't speak about me like I'm not here. It's rude.

I guess calling people scabs isn't.

Yes, I am a paid up member of Labour if that's what you wanted to know.

What makes you want to give your own money to a political party? When they're in power they take it anyways.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Several people where I work use Annual Leave (daily leave days) on strike days so they don't lose money on strike days - a bit desperate if you ask me and really don't know why people get themselves into such a bad situation financially that they have to waste annual leave to just not loose money on strike days.

 

[Clip]

Can't speak for anyone else other than myself, but no, I will never accept DOO Not for a kings ransom. I have enough to do with what's in front of me, without worrying about what's behind me. I'm not motivated by money. Only by my own moral code, and I will never sell a workmate down the road to help me or the company worked for, to profit from that.

and if a vote by your fellow staff passed the motion i take it you will leave the profession then?

 

[Dave1987]

In any negotiation one should try to see the other party's point of view, and the global position, to achieve a solution.

It seems to me that the RMT policy is of old fashioned self destructing strikes, although admittedly they might be on stronger ground.

A long time ago shipyard workers would stop the job if a platelayer touched a job that belonged to a welder and so on - ships could be bought from Korea etc. so a lot of the shipbuilding industry was done for."

Arthur Scargill killed the mining industry - less aggravation to buy coal from elsewhere.

Red Robbo finished off the traditional car industry by striking at every opportunity and turning out slapdash work (although that has come back better than before on a Greenfield basis without all the old trappings)

Rail workers may think that they are indispensable at present but if they push the envelope too far government may look for alternatives
The nuclear solution would be that of Ronald Reagan and the Air Traffic Controllers ( air being as important in the U.S. as rail is here)
He sacked the lot - enough were prepared to sign new contracts to keep a basic service going, and by slimming the rulebook and accelerated training things were soon back to normal.
(Incidentally during that dispute I flew from London to San Francisco in sight of land all the way, and saw lots that I would not have done otherwise!).

Ow gotta love the right wing way of introducing change. Don’t make the effort to win over staff just sack the lot of em if they don’t like the changes. How to win hearts and minds eh!

 

[Dave1987]

The only 'happy staff' sort of comment I can ever recall was some of the new OBS on Southern. As that was true I'm not sure what your point is ??
Unions need to earn respect. Most that I have worked with have been professional, sadly some don't appear to be.

Like I said you have no real idea about what you are talking about even though you try to claim you do. I don’t believe you have any respect for any unions, you seem to pay lip service to unions and tolerate them because you have to.

 

[driver_m]

I guess calling people scabs isn't.

What makes you want to give your own money to a political party? When they're in power they take it anyways.

I've never actually called anyone a scab because I've never been on strike .Never had to, all that co-operation that my union and company have been pretty good at for years...who'd of thought it?


Im a member because it's something I believe in. I fully accept having rather a lot of my income being taken because I know it's ultimately for the benefit of us all. I'd like more of it for me, who wouldn't, but I don't give it too much thought. It just winds people up too much when they do look at their contributions. And that's the key, contributions, not takings . I can always leave this country if I don't like paying it, but I choose not to.

 

[driver_m]

and if a vote by your fellow staff passed the motion i take it you will leave the profession then?

I'd certainly be looking elsewhere yes if they voted in DOO. I can't see it being accepted though.

 

[Robertj21a]

Like I said you have no real idea about what you are talking about even though you try to claim you do. I don’t believe you have any respect for any unions, you seem to pay lip service to unions and tolerate them because you have to.

I don't know why I need to repeat what I said. Unions need to earn respect.
If it helps you better understand, Management (and staff) also need to earn respect - it's a 2-way thing.
SO - Respect is earned, not a given right. OK?

 

[Clip]

I'd certainly be looking elsewhere yes if they voted in DOO. I can't see it being accepted though.

Well at least you'e honest about that.

 

[northwichcat]

What makes you want to give your own money to a political party? When they're in power they take it anyways.

While I'm not a member of a political party I can see benefits to it. The change in make up of the Labour Party members is what resulted in Corbyn being leader, Conservatives defecting to UKIP is what made David Cameron have a referendum on EU membership. So if it wasn't for people who join political parties we might now have a Labour government led by Andy Burnham, with no plans to leave the EU.

 

[HH]

While I'm not a member of a political party I can see benefits to it. The change in make up of the Labour Party members is what resulted in Corbyn being leader, Conservatives defecting to UKIP is what made David Cameron have a referendum on EU membership. So if it wasn't for people who join political parties we might now have a Labour government led by Andy Burnham, with no plans to leave the EU.

That seems like a good argument against people joining political parties to me.

 

[northwichcat]

That seems like a good argument against people joining political parties to me.

Yes for those who didn't want major change that would be better but for those who did they've been able to change the political landscape.

 

[Wombat]

In an ever evolving world its only right and proper for organisations to improve efficiency and profitability. However this should never in my opinion be done at the expense of those who actually do the work

I still find this perspective a bit odd. If I conclude that my factory no longer needs 20 widget inspectors to maintain its output, should I continue to employ them as widget inspectors anyway?

I mean, this is what it comes down to, isn't it? The TOCs don't think they need guards any more, and I certainly don't expect them (or the drivers) to be happy about it, but on what genuine grounds do we think that taxpayers and commuters should pay to fill a role that's no longer necessary? In theory I'm happy to accept a principled stand on safety grounds, but I really don't think that's anyone's primary motivation here. Why is "I like this job and I wish to continue doing it" sufficient justification to maintain the status quo?

 

[superkev]

I've not posted on this thread before but ignoring the rights and wrongs of driver only operation I can't help thinking the guards representatives have seriously let there members down in taking on a war they are unlikely to win. Better to have tried to agree a compromise.
Personality with the UK's litigation culture it may be ok for short trains but asking one person to see down 6 plus coaches is to me not on.
Perhaps a compromise may be for long trains to have both driver and guard responsibility with shorter trains doo operated. Just a suggestion.
K