Arriva Rail North DOO

[coxxy]

As I understand the £200 is a one off payment to cover the strikes. Not a £200 payment per day.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but are Northern one of the franchises were the government bankrolls costs of strikes anyway?

Yes. Initially DfT was going to specify only the driver on board with the TOCs taking any hit for strike action but the shortlisted bidders effectively told DfT they'll withdraw from the bidding process unless that changes.

 

[Moonshot]

As I understand the £200 is a one off payment to cover the strikes. Not a £200 payment per day.

Correct. In effect its a years free subs

 

[Moonshot]

Yes. Initially DfT was going to specify only the driver on board with the TOCs taking any hit for strike action but the shortlisted bidders effectively told DfT they'll withdraw from the bidding process unless that changes.

Or put another way, the DFT are micromanaging the franchise

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting to note based on comments on local newspaper sites even a lot of those living in Labour supporting areas aren't supportive of the strikes and think it's the RMT being greedy not Northern.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern expect to publish revised timetables on Thursday 4th Jan so passengers won't get much notice of revised services.

 

[Overspeed110]

Interesting to note based on comments on local newspaper sites even a lot of those living in Labour supporting areas aren't supportive of the strikes and think it's the RMT being greedy not Northern.

The guards I see in various mess rooms all state that the vast majority of the public are on the side of the guards, I've seen these local news sites and it seems to be right wing oaps / ukip / daily mail types that populate them, so no surprise there.

You'll have to try harder, why don't you poll the punters on your precious Cheshire line?

 

[a_c_skinner]

vast majority of the public are on the side of the guards

There is little doubt in my mind that the public want a customer facing staff member on the train, certainly on the Northern network where large parts are unstaffed at stations. I am not sure the public has a fully developed view of what exactly that role should comprise.

 

[northwichcat]

The guards I see in various mess rooms all state that the vast majority of the public are on the side of the guards, I've seen these local news sites and it seems to be right wing oaps / ukip / daily mail types that populate them, so no surprise there.

You'll have to try harder, why don't you poll the punters on your precious Cheshire line?

A number say they are in favour of guards but then when it's pointed out that a 'driver only' service means the driver does the doors, not that there's no-one else on board people say they don't care if the second person is a guard or not as long as there is one. In fact many say they would prefer it if the second person wasn't in control of the doors. One newspaper site from a Labour supporting town has 21 comments on an article - 1 is from someone who's quoted from the RMT, the rest are from those who don't support the strikes set to take place in January.

It's the RMT who have no evidence that the majority of the public are on their side, as they keep claiming. I've not been on one train where a guard has asked passengers for their view on the dispute - of course those who voluntary tell the guard are going to be in favour. :roll:

Not sure which local newspaper sites you look at but the comments on the ones I look at are mainly anti-Tory even when it's a paper for a pro-Tory town like Wilmslow.

 

[ivanhoe]

The guards I see in various mess rooms all state that the vast majority of the public are on the side of the guards, I've seen these local news sites and it seems to be right wing oaps / ukip / daily mail types that populate them, so no surprise there.

You'll have to try harder, why don't you poll the punters on your precious Cheshire line?

Is it not time to test the resolve of the Public and the TOC’s about support for the guard? Merseyrail cope when it’s a series of day strikes. It doesn’t inconvenience the public enough. Even when Northern have their strikes, life does go on. Therefore would an indefinite strike bring this dispute to a conclusion? I can see the current disputes just carrying on without changes in tactics.

 

[a_c_skinner]

resolve of the Public

It would test the resolve of the staff side most. The public would find work arounds but for the staff with no income there wouldn't be. I do agree that the present tactics seem doomed to failure with staff gradually drifting back to work as it grinds on - all TOCs, not just Northern.

 

[CN75]

Is it not time to test the resolve of the Public and the TOC’s about support for the guard? Merseyrail cope when it’s a series of day strikes. It doesn’t inconvenience the public enough. Even when Northern have their strikes, life does go on. Therefore would an indefinite strike bring this dispute to a conclusion? I can see the current disputes just carrying on without changes in tactics.

This is only the beginning. For one thing with the Brexit subject dominating everything, there is no reason why the DfT will change any direction. The media care less and less about the strikes. Plus, now that the DfT have clearly twigged that the Equality Act won’t allow the DOO-isation of the 1990s nowadays, getting the McNulty report savings comes from changing the guard role away from door operating and inflexibility and making them genuinely value for money (smartcards, tickets, security and helping people on trains).

However, if the companies ask Aslef drivers to drive DOO, or operate the doors, or have a second person whenever possible, or something in between - and those drivers repeatedly vote against that in Aslef ballots at Northern - then the change in working methods will be imposed on them by the company. Naturally that is something Aslef do not want to happen for various reasons.

Then it will be Russian roulette for the TOC - refuse to drive the train doo, the driver will get sacked versus if they all refuse to drive, the TOC will have no trains. That’s when the fight will really start and everyone will go on about savage attacks on union members.

Until then, the RMT are just pouring guards solidarity, resolve and money down the drain because they have found out they have no effect that anyone cares about. The truth hurts and the cash and power bonanza of the first twenty years of privatisation is over. The DfT knew this would come and are bankrolling every franchise for industrial action. For the RMT the realisation that they aren’t as powerful as they thought could actually be a valuable lesson if it helps develop some better negotiating skills and knocks some sense into some guards that they will not just get whatever they want because of their union.

Aslef want the RMT to figure out a compromise so they do not have to put drivers in the picture with strikes. Their leaders know there is a lot of passionate feeling in Northern drivers but also that if they call for action - and then actually have to take it - they are using up their power like a ticking timer and can’t afford to lose. Aslef have plenty to lose from provoking the government too far: central training academies funded by the DfT, government enforced pay cap levels, over-establishment recruitment by the government, introduction of two-tier contracts for drivers with new starters on half the wage, or a serious strike contingency strategy for drivers. Avoiding actually striking will prevent this, but strikes will bring it all forward - if the government stick to their position. As ever, the actual best outcome is out there to be negotiated by looking at what everyone ultimately wants, not whether one side or another will win a war.

An indefinite strike would just destroy the union by splitting it. More bullying at work between guards etc. People with mortgages needing them paid versus people who have them long paid off telling the others to strike while referencing the miners. Guards who can see the future versus others who believe they don’t need to change and can do like they always have.

A free day or overtime working ban would probably cause the TOC a lot more trouble than these strikes, but that’s the unofficial way the RMT allows people to cover their losses.

 

[Overspeed110]

A number say they are in favour of guards but then when it's pointed out that a 'driver only' service means the driver does the doors, not that there's no-one else on board people say they don't care if the second person is a guard or not as long as there is one.

You've said it yourself, as long as there is a guard / second person on the train.

Northern are not guaranteeing that there will be a second member of staff on every train , that is one problem, the other problem is even if the second person is on the train (and it might start like that, but for how long?), whether that person will be PTS safety trained, the current intention is that they won't.

I don't understand what relevance "Labour supporting towns" etc has, not all the people in any area, for any party will vote for the controlling party, in fact the winning party often gets to that position with around a 1/3 of the vote, so not representative of the other 2/3rds.

You have mentioned Rail North several times, citing "Labour controlled councils" voted for the Arriva deal etc, I would like to see a breakdown of each and every council (there's a lot) and how each and every councillor voted (of all parties.)

 

[northwichcat]

You've said it yourself, as long as there is a guard / second person on the train.

Northern are not guaranteeing that there will be a second member of staff on every train , that is one problem, the other problem is even if the second person is on the train (and it might start like that, but for how long?), whether that person will be PTS safety trained, the current intention is that they won't.

I should have also added 'visible staff presence.' A number of Northern passengers who've been interviewed by news programs say they want Northern to reinstate guards on trains - presumably those who travel on services where the guard remains in the cab the whole time.

The RMT keep going on about driver only and guards being sacked, despite Arriva giving a guarantee that all guards will remain in employment until at least 2025 (they can't give a longer guarantee without DfT getting involved.) To Joe Public 'driver only' means literally the driver as the only staff member on board, once people realise 'driver only' services doesn't automatically mean 'driver only' they get confused as to what the dispute is about and feel the RMT is lying to them to get their support.

We know the RMT won't accept a deal where the driver both opens and closes the doors even if there's a guarantee of a second member of staff on board all services. If they were willing to accept that then the industrial action could have probably been avoided altogether, even if Arriva initially refused to agree to services being cancelled if a second member of staff is unavailable. It would be interesting to ask the general public whether in an emergency they would prefer their train to be cancelled or their train to be operated with just the driver on board. Given the PRM requirements which will be in place by January 2020 and the variety of different platforms Northern stop at I don't think Arriva will be able to get away with planning to operate services with just a driver on board

I don't understand what relevance "Labour supporting towns" etc has, not all the people in any area, for any party will vote for the controlling party, in fact the winning party often gets to that position with around a 1/3 of the vote, so not representative of the other 2/3rds.

High Labour support usually means above average support for the unions. However, I know members of non-rail trade unions who are calling the RMT an embarrassment to trade unions (and terms which would break forum rules if posted on here.)

You have mentioned Rail North several times, citing "Labour controlled councils" voted for the Arriva deal etc, I would like to see a breakdown of each and every council (there's a lot) and how each and every councillor voted (of all parties.)

The voting rights for Rail North are such that if Metro and TfGM have around 45% of the voting rights between them. It's also worth remembering 'driver only' services aren't likely to be seen in areas which are not getting any new trains. We know in Merseyside a promise of new, more advanced trains is enough for councillors to go from anti-DOO to pro-DOO.

 

[Overspeed110]

I should have also added 'visible staff presence.' A number of Northern passengers who've been interviewed by news programs say they want Northern to reinstate guards on trains - presumably those who travel on services where the guard remains in the cab the whole time.

The RMT keep going on about driver only and guards being sacked, despite Arriva giving a guarantee that all guards will remain in employment until at least 2025 (they can't give a longer guarantee without DfT getting involved.) To Joe Public 'driver only' means literally the driver as the only staff member on board, once people realise 'driver only' services doesn't automatically mean 'driver only' they get confused as to what the dispute is about and feel the RMT is lying to them to get their support.

We know the RMT won't accept a deal where the driver both opens and closes the doors even if there's a guarantee of a second member of staff on board all services. If they were willing to accept that then the industrial action could have probably been avoided altogether, even if Arriva initially refused to agree to services being cancelled if a second member of staff is unavailable. It would be interesting to ask the general public whether in an emergency they would prefer their train to be cancelled or their train to be operated with just the driver on board. Given the PRM requirements which will be in place by January 2020 and the variety of different platforms Northern stop at I don't think Arriva will be able to get away with planning to operate services with just a driver on board



High Labour support usually means above average support for the unions. However, I know members of non-rail trade unions who are calling the RMT an embarrassment to trade unions (and terms which would break forum rules if posted on here.)



The voting rights for Rail North are such that if Metro and TfGM have around 45% of the voting rights between them. It's also worth remembering 'driver only' services aren't likely to be seen in areas which are not getting any new trains. We know in Merseyside a promise of new, more advanced trains is enough for councillors to go from anti-DOO to pro-DOO.

Why are the RMT an embarrassment to trade unions?

Because they are trying to protect their members interests by insisting on a PTS trained person must be retained on every train?
The same members who voted by 83% in favour of the current industrial action?

The only thing remotely embarrassing is the attitude of a very small minority of RMT guards who can't see further than the end of their noses.

 

[northwichcat]

Why are the RMT an embarrassment to trade unions?

Because they are trying to protect their members interests by insisting on a PTS trained person must be retained on every train?
The same members who voted by 83% in favour of the current industrial action?

The only thing remotely embarrassing is the attitude of a very small minority of RMT guards who can't see further than the end of their noses.

Most trade unions strike as a last resort, while the RMT have made it clear they want to strike at the first opportunity they can and cause maximum disruption - they even tried to call strikes in 2015 over plans to introduce DCO in 2019 before they were told it was illegal to strike against a future employer. Members of other trade unions are losing their holidays due to the RMT's actions due to having to book days off whenever the RMT choose to take strikes.

And you know it's not just about a PTS trained person on every train, it's about a PTS trained person on every train and the driver not being allowed to perform any door closing or dispatch duties.

 

[Moonshot]

Most trade unions strike as a last resort, while the RMT have made it clear they want to strike at the first opportunity they can and cause maximum disruption - they even tried to call strikes in 2015 over plans to introduce DCO in 2019 before they were told it was illegal to strike against a future employer. Members of other trade unions are losing their holidays due to the RMT's actions due to having to book days off whenever the RMT choose to take strikes.

No thats wrong,drivers are not losing out , they still have to book on regardless.

 

[Moonshot]

Why are the RMT an embarrassment to trade unions?

Because they are trying to protect their members interests by insisting on a PTS trained person must be retained on every train?
The same members who voted by 83% in favour of the current industrial action?

The only thing remotely embarrassing is the attitude of a very small minority of RMT guards who can't see further than the end of their noses.

I think you will find in the mess rooms ( certainly in ours ) that there are issues with the way the RMT leasdership are handling this overall. Interestingly a lot of the older hands would gladly take a VS package if it came along, which I suspect it may do longer term.

 

[northwichcat]

No thats wrong,drivers are not losing out , they still have to book on regardless.

I mean outside the rail industry e.g. GMB members who catch the train to work and don't have an alternative - not everyone can still get to work with the skeleton service Northern provide on strike days.

 

[Moonshot]

I mean outside the rail industry e.g. GMB members who catch the train to work and don't have an alternative - not everyone can still get to work with the skeleton service Northern provide on strike days.

I m sure GMB members would understand, and of course the notice period required for strike action means that passengers can make alternative arrangements

 

[Robertj21a]

Why are the RMT an embarrassment to trade unions?

Because they are trying to protect their members interests by insisting on a PTS trained person must be retained on every train?
The same members who voted by 83% in favour of the current industrial action?

The only thing remotely embarrassing is the attitude of a very small minority of RMT guards who can't see further than the end of their noses.

The RMT are an embarrasment to many people. They need a total overhaul at the top, better understanding of media presence, greater professionalism in general - and an ability to recognise that we are in 2017, not 1977.

 

[Moonshot]

The RMT are an embarrasment to many people. They need a total overhaul at the top, better understanding of media presence, greater professionalism in general - and an ability to recognise that we are in 2017, not 1977.

Of course we can vote out the incumbent at the top at next election. He wont be getting my vote thats for sure

 

[Overspeed110]

No thats wrong,drivers are not losing out , they still have to book on regardless.

They don't have to book on, they can legally refuse to cross the picket line. (This has been done to death, but before anyone starts, yes they can refuse to cross the picket line).

 

[northwichcat]

I m sure GMB members would understand, and of course the notice period required for strike action means that passengers can make alternative arrangements

If Northern are the only operator providing public transport to where you want to go and they aren't running a service at the time you need to travel and no-one can give you a lift, what alternative do you have? Spend half your wages for the day on a taxi to get to work and the other half on a taxi to get home? Outside Metropolitan areas bus services are becoming non-existent on routes where there's a rail alternative.

 

[Moonshot]

They don't have to book on, they can legally refuse to cross the picket line. (This has been done to death, but before anyone starts, yes they can refuse to cross the picket line).

That has just not happened at all

 

[Overspeed110]

I think you will find in the mess rooms ( certainly in ours ) that there are issues with the way the RMT leasdership are handling this overall. Interestingly a lot of the older hands would gladly take a VS package if it came along, which I suspect it may do longer term.

Well they could always follow my unions take on it...

££££

Where do we sign?

 

[Moonshot]

If Northern are the only operator providing public transport and they aren't running a service at the time you need to travel and no-one who drives in lives nearby, what alternative do you have? Spend half your wages for the day on a taxi to get to work and the other half on a taxi to get home?

Or take the day off or work from home.....the country hasnt collapsed just because we are not out and about on trains

 

[Moonshot]

Well they could always follow my unions take on it...

££££

Where do we sign?

naughty boy !! But I understand

 

[Overspeed110]

That has just not happened at all

You are wrong, obviously no names or locations, but it has.

But nowhere near the solidarity shown on Merseyrail

 

[northwichcat]

Or take the day off or work from home.....the country hasnt collapsed just because we are not out and about on trains

Take the day off is what I originally said, hence why I said they wasting their holiday allowance. Work from home is only possible for certain jobs and not generally ones where people would be in a union.