Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

The Franchise Agreement apparently specifies a second member of staff on board. Of course that can be varied at DfT's discretion.

It doesn't rule out the service operating if the second member of staff takes ill, which is something the unions don't like. Although it does rule out planning to operate services with just a driver on board. One consideration will have to be if the second member of staff takes ill, would there be any issues with a disabled person (who hasn't pre-booked) travelling?

 

[Pinza-C55]

The figures I saw were:

Eligible to Vote / Ballot Papers sent out : 1254.

Ballot papers returned : 837 ( 66.7% )

Voting in favour of a strike : 696 ( 83% of those who actually voted. 55.5% of those who were eligible to vote)

Voting NOT in favour of a strike : 137

Spoilt papers : 4

So the actual margin in favour of a strike is slim, only 55% of the RMT Guard members voted for a strike. There will of course be some who are not in the RMT too.

But the figures still pass the new legislation, but probably not by as far as the RMT would have liked.

It's an established precedent of elections and referenda that if you don't bother to vote, you don't count.
So, in the 2015 election 35% of those who voted, voted Tory but only 25% of those eligible to vote actually voted Tory . If you did a really large opinion poll only one quarter of the people polled would say they had voted Tory yet we have a Tory government with a sizeable majority.
That's the way it works.

 

[mtbox]

It's a legal fact. If they wish to be in dispute with Northern they need their own ballot. Advising their members otherwise would be putting them at risk of dismissal.

Sympathetic strike action is, whether you/they like it or not, not legal.

Whether you like it or not, if a Northern ASLEF driver makes up their own mind that they are not going to cross the Northern RMT picket line, then that driver is legally protected against dismissal as it is classed as (banging my head against the wall, now) protected action.
They will lose a days pay, and may get disciplined (but so can any body else on strike).
This is NOT secondary/sympathetic action!!!!!

Of course ASLEF have advised their members to book on normally, legally they can't do anything else!

 

[mtbox]

Risk of dismissal from a very highly paid job it has to be said....

You are wrong.

And ".....a very highly paid job?" Yeah, right.

 

[Moonshot]

You are wrong.

And ".....a very highly paid job?" Yeah, right.

No I m not wrong at all......

Drivers earn a basic £46k a year....certainly a lot higher than the average salary.

 

[Darandio]

You are wrong.

And ".....a very highly paid job?" Yeah, right.

We are talking about drivers yes? In the North of England? £40k+ per year?

But you are going to claim that isn't high?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

We are talking about drivers yes? In the North of England? £40k+ per year?

But you are going to claim that isn't high?

Crikey even I have to admit that Drivers do get paid well, very few drivers would deny it and good on them. They applied, Got Interviewed, Got Trained and now are earning a very good wage. I have no problem with it. I earn a Good wage nowhere near a drivers but still good.

 

[Moonshot]

Crikey even I have to admit that Drivers do get paid well, very few drivers would deny it and good on them. They applied, Got Interviewed, Got Trained and now are earning a very good wage. I have no problem with it. I earn a Good wage nowhere near a drivers but still good.

Spot on. Throw in the rest day patterns and the travel benefits etc....its a very good job.

 

[mtbox]

We are talking about drivers yes? In the North of England? £40k+ per year?

But you are going to claim that isn't high?

It is an acceptable amount for the nature of the job, which includes getting up at 0200, going to bed at 0400, working Saturday, Sundays, bank holidays, etc.

Someone mentioned its a VERY HIGHLY PAID job.

Well it isn't.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

It is an acceptable amount for the nature of the job, which includes getting up at 0200, going to bed at 0400, working Saturday, Sundays, bank holidays, etc.

Someone mentioned its a VERY HIGHLY PAID job.

Well it isn't.

Tell that to a graduate stacking shelves on a zero hour contract for the minimum wage.

They're bloody well paid and good for them.

 

[mtbox]

Spot on. Throw in the rest day patterns and the travel benefits etc....its a very good job.

Ah, now you say very GOOD job, yes, it can be a good job at times.

But it is not a VERY HIGHLY PAID job.

If it were £125,000 a year, you'd be right, but then again that's probably what the Daily Hate tells all their readers we're on

 

[northwichcat]

It is an acceptable amount for the nature of the job, which includes getting up at 0200, going to bed at 0400, working Saturday, Sundays, bank holidays, etc.

Someone mentioned its a VERY HIGHLY PAID job.

Well it isn't.

BBC employ production staff in Salford required to work as part of a team 24/7/365 starting on £24,000. Someone on that grade will get overnight on Christmas Eve and will have to work when a lot of people are seeing in the new year.

 

[Moonshot]

Ah, now you say very GOOD job, yes, it can be a good job at times.

But it is not a VERY HIGHLY PAID job.

If it were £125,000 a year, you'd be right, but then again that's probably what the Daily Hate tells all their readers we're on

Where exactly do the media disclose that drivers earm £125000 per year?

Drivers earning £70k after rest day/Sunday working is not uncommon.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

BBC employ production staff in Salford required to work as part of a team 24/7/365 starting on £24,000. Someone on that grade will get overnight on Christmas Eve and will have to work when a lot of people are seeing in the new year.

And nursing home care assistants get basic minimum wage to wipe arses and deal with angry dementia patients every day, every night, with no bank holiday or weekend consideration in the rotas....

 

[Moonshot]

And nursing home care assistants get basic minimum wage to wipe arses and deal with angry dementia patients every day, every night, with no bank holiday or weekend consideration in the rotas....

Oddly enough, one of our lady drivers used to be a care assistant in a nursing home some years ago. Quite an eye opener listening to her experiences of that role.

 

[455driver]

The RMT are also making a good case for why Corbyn's idea of allowing sympathy strikes is a bad one. They seem to be trying to make the public think that Merseyrail and Northern both plan to operate trains with only the drivers on board, when only Merseyrail have such plans.

So what is it in the Northern proposal that means every train willhave a second person on board, I have had a look at the available information and there is nothing in there that convinces me that trains will not be running with just the driver on board when it suits.

If you could point me to where it states categorically that every Northern train will retain a second member of staff on board I would be most grateful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tell that to a graduate stacking shelves on a zero hour contract for the minimum wage.

They're bloody well paid and good for them.

It's a job that, unless they have another high-value skill like IT, most people who do it won't get nearly as much if they switch to another job with the skillset they have. Partly that is because their skillset is very specialised, and while it's highly valuable on the railway it isn't elsewhere.

Therefore, taking any action that jeopardises that job, such as unofficial strike action (i.e. action not authorised by the Union they themselves are a member of), is very foolhardy indeed.

And similarly, any picket line staff shouting "scab" at any such people, which I would imagine some are, is bang out of order. Those taking an official strike (the guards) are protected against dismissal for doing so. The drivers are not, and it is wrong to expect them to risk their livelihood in advance of any formal strike ballot by their Union.

 

[Robertj21a]

Absolutely disgraceful !!!!

What a ridiculous statement. Do you not understand this issue, and how it relates to the law of the land ?

My interpretation is that, as usual, ASLEF is acting in a professional manner.

 

[Moonshot]

What a ridiculous statement. Do you not understand this issue, and how it relates to the law of the land ?

My interpretation is that, as usual, ASLEF is acting in a professional manner.

It is......RMT also warned us in a letter that we could possibly be in breach of our contract, so fair play to them on that one.

 

[LowLevel]

It's a job that, unless they have another high-value skill like IT, most people who do it won't get nearly as much if they switch to another job with the skillset they have. Partly that is because their skillset is very specialised, and while it's highly valuable on the railway it isn't elsewhere.

Therefore, taking any action that jeopardises that job, such as unofficial strike action (i.e. action not authorised by the Union they themselves are a member of), is very foolhardy indeed.

And similarly, any picket line staff shouting "scab" at any such people, which I would imagine some are, is bang out of order. Those taking an official strike (the guards) are protected against dismissal for doing so. The drivers are not, and it is wrong to expect them to risk their livelihood in advance of any formal strike ballot by their Union.

You won't find any picket line staff shouting scab. The employer tends to unleash BTP very quickly on any picket line irregularities.

I'm sure they know what they're doing in any case. I'm sure the gesture of support will be well appreciated by their colleagues.

 

[driver_m]

Absolutely disgraceful !!!!

Aslef have to jump through a stupid number of hoops in order not to be pursued by lawyers. It's not a disgrace, it's my Union protecting itself, and ultimately, me and my colleagues. Hate the govt that brought this situation around, not the member that posted it.

Have to say I am full of admiration for my Merseyrail colleagues who have refused to cross the picket. Liverpool is for me personally, the most admirable city in England for standing up for what it believes in and this reinforces that.

 

[mtbox]

Aslef have to jump through a stupid number of hoops in order not to be pursued by lawyers. It's not a disgrace, it's my Union protecting itself, and ultimately, me and my colleagues. Hate the govt that brought this situation around, not the member that posted it.

Have to say I am full of admiration for my Merseyrail colleagues who have refused to cross the picket. Liverpool is for me personally, the most admirable city in England for standing up for what it believes in and this reinforces that.

Agree entirely.

If ASLEF were seen to suggest in any way shape or form to its members to go out on strike (without being balloted) with the RMT, they would get taken to the cleaners.

But as an individual's decision it is a different matter.

 

[northwichcat]

So what is it in the Northern proposal that means every train willhave a second person on board, I have had a look at the available information and there is nothing in there that convinces me that trains will not be running with just the driver on board when it suits.

If you could point me to where it states categorically that every Northern train will retain a second member of staff on board I would be most grateful.

It says every service must be scheduled to have two members of staff on board. OK that doesn't rule out a service still operating if the scheduled second member of staff has taken ill but if the RMT want to claim they will be driver only services they need more evidence than they don't trust the franchise operator to adhere to a legally binding document or don't trust DfT to take action when the franchise agreement is not adhered to. They might as well say they don't believe Northern will operate any 195s.

 

[northwichcat]

And similarly, any picket line staff shouting "scab" at any such people, which I would imagine some are, is bang out of order. Those taking an official strike (the guards) are protected against dismissal for doing so. The drivers are not, and it is wrong to expect them to risk their livelihood in advance of any formal strike ballot by their Union.

The law bans the following

• trespassing (trying to enter a building without permission)
• making a noise nuisance
• using threatening language or offensive material, libel or slander in leaflets, banners, placards, chants or speeches

and if an individual or union breaks those laws a court order can be taken out against them banning from from future pickets.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tell that to a graduate stacking shelves on a zero hour contract for the minimum wage.

But tell that to Wayne Rooney, who gets £300,000 a week for being not very good at football, and he'll think they get paid peanuts.

This whataboutery does my head in.

The graduate stacking shelves on a zero hours contract has no responsibility. They might not be paid well, but they won't go to prison if they accidentally put the broccoli where the cauliflower should be.

 

[HH]

The graduate stacking shelves on a zero hours contract has no responsibility. They might not be paid well, but they won't go to prison if they accidentally put the broccoli where the cauliflower should be.

They would if some posters to these forums had their way.

 

[northwichcat]

But tell that to Wayne Rooney, who gets £300,000 a week for being not very good at football, and he'll think they get paid peanuts.

This whataboutery does my head in.

If you don't look big footballer salaries then don't go to football matches or pay for subscription sports channels.

The graduate stacking shelves on a zero hours contract has no responsibility. They might not be paid well, but they won't go to prison if they accidentally put the broccoli where the cauliflower should be.

I wonder if they would avoid criminal charges if through negligence they cause a heavy item on a high shelf to drop on a customer which knocks them unconscious.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the Barrow line today there's a single 4-car 156 shuttling back and forth with a driver and two guards (I guess one of them, who was wearing an RMT "no DOO" type badge promoting safety grounds, decided, unexpectedly to management, not to strike).

The longer train was welcome compared with a too-small 185 - I'd happily see these services all switch back to double 156s. But one thing the double-guarding highlighted was how much less hassle it was for that guard to do tickets, being able to spend the necessary time with each passenger without rushing.

If anything, given that the other guard was just doing doors and announcements, both jobs the driver does on DOO along with an automatic PIS, the whole thing was a massive advertisement for DOO with an "OBS" on board.

And if the OBS had gone sick, I doubt anyone would have complained about a free ride.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you don't look big footballer salaries then don't go to football matches or pay for subscription sports channels.

I was saying precisely this to my sister yesterday who was complaining of footballer salaries.

If everyone switched to support their local non-league amateur team (in person at the match) it would take football back to its roots, and the money-spinning would end.

 

[nedchester]

Those taking an official strike (the guards) are protected against dismissal for doing so. The drivers are not, and it is wrong to expect them to risk their livelihood in advance of any formal strike ballot by their Union.

I suspect the drivers are protected from dismissal:

https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action

(See Industrial Action by Non-union members)