Arriva Rail North DOO

[wingsoveryorks]

A better way of looking at that is how much revenue would be lost if the guard wasnt on board. I generally take around £50k a year in tickets, but I guess most of that would be revenue collected anyway at barriers. In effect I m worth what I get from pax travelling between stations with no facilities.

The loss would be massive, and Alex hynes knew that. If you take Leeds as an example. Network rail open the barrier if the queue for tickets get too long, and long is not that long at all really.
I don;t think people understand the level of fraud, short fare. and avoidance that goes on. You get rid of a barrier or conductor and within a week half the train would be at it.

We know that.

 

[northwichcat]

A better way of looking at that is how much revenue would be lost if the guard wasnt on board. I generally take around £50k a year in tickets, but I guess most of that would be revenue collected anyway at barriers. In effect I m worth what I get from pax travelling between stations with no facilities.

The loss would be massive, and Alex hynes knew that. If you take Leeds as an example. Network rail open the barrier if the queue for tickets get too long, and long is not that long at all really.
I don;t think people understand the level of fraud, short fare. and avoidance that goes on. You get rid of a barrier or conductor and within a week half the train would be at it.

We know that.

In the case of Northern the comparison should really be cost and benefits of a guard compared with cost and benefits of the alternative, as the plan is not to have just the driver on board but to have someone on board who doesn't do the door duties so they can focus more on revenue duties. Some costs will be unchanged e.g. the cost of a uniform and the cost of a portable ticket machine. However, if some of the DCO services finish up with guards on guard salaries acting as the second member of staff, then the variable would be the number of tickets sold.

 

[muz379]

In the case of Northern the comparison should really be cost and benefits of a guard compared with cost and benefits of the alternative, as the plan is not to have just the driver on board but to have someone on board who doesn't do the door duties so they can focus more on revenue duties. Some costs will be unchanged e.g. the cost of a uniform and the cost of a portable ticket machine. However, if some of the DCO services finish up with guards on guard salaries acting as the second member of staff, then the variable would be the number of tickets sold.

And are demoralised staff going to bother putting any more effort in than they already do ?

I have said it again I will say it again . There is a way to increase ticket sales improve staff morale and avoid this whole dispute whilst achieving the same uplift in ticket sales . That is by fitting additional intermediate door control panels to stock that only has panels at cab ends .

If all traction had door panels at every door like 158's or 319's then we would see increases in tickets sold . Couple this with a scotraill model of driver released doors and I really see no significant increase to be gained by going to full driver control .

I know you are going to say that the few minutes the guard spends closing the doors is time lost selling tickets but I dispute this . Before today when I have been carrying out revenue duties with someone else doing my doors for me I have still had to stand out of the way not selling tickets at the time we are approaching and are in a station to allow passengers to move down the aisles to get on and off . And either way even if the "guards" do not have to do the doors , on a 4 coach train travelling say a 5 minute journey between 2 unstaffed stations there are still going to be people who can get on at the opposite end of the guard and get off without a ticket .Even more probable given the amount of stock that operates in multiple with no gangway connection

Then there is a problem of peak overcrowding , and late friday and saturday . When guards cannot or dont feel safe doing tickets . This is not going to change even if I do not have to do doors there is no way I am going to try and force myself through a train that is so full and standing people cannot move . This kind of intimacy with strangers is not my bag

 

[modernrail]

What you have to understand firstly is that Northern, (I cannot speak for other TOC's arrangements) actually have three different sets of employment contracts in force. The old Northern Spirit or (Evil spirit) as we knew them, the old First North Western, and now part of the old Transpennine.
In the last franchise it was suggested to try and bring these terms of employment in line. It proved impossible mainly because Abellio would only attempt it on a cost neutral basis.

You have to understand that Sunday working is not part of our working week, but this is because the TOC's benefit financially from this. The RMT in particular is, and always has been, open to negotiation about bringing it into the working week. But because of diagram issues, it would mean employing more staff if this happened. They have always found it cheaper to use overtime as a cheaper option. As for thinking it is bad us being paid overtime Monday-Saturday, hang on. we get 12% overtime rate. What would you prefer, no trains? The TOC's wouldn't at a going rate of about £5,000 per cancellation. You might do a couple of hours on a Saturday morning overtime, we do a whole day. Why blame the guards for being paid to keep the trains running? I mean, I will happily not go in and work over on Monday, but they'll be a lot of rather pee'd off commuters. Where does this four day week come from? We work five, sometimes up to seven in a row, that is how we get rest day blocks.

Don't blame the RMT for this. The offer has always been there, but overtime and goodwill has always been the chosen path.

If the overtime rate is 12 per cent that is not too bad. However, it would be much better to have property resourced services within normal contract hours. Every 12 per cent adds up to more expensive fares. The Sunday thing is completely unacceptable. The railways are finally adjusting timetables to the reality of Sunday passenger flows, and staffing needs to be certain. I don't really understand the comment about TOC's benefitting financially from Sunday working. Are you saying profits for Sundays are counted as cream for the TOC and that Sunday's are profitable for TOCs? I would be surprised considering the service is all at off-peak fares.

I will blame the RMT for their part on this. The Merseyrail trains are not even on the assembly line yet and they are giving up on talking and moving straight to strike action. At some point they need to get their head around the fact that the hard won right to strike should not be used as the first port of call. They back people into a corner and treat the travelling public with complete disdain which leads to a total breakdown of relationship between railway staff and passengers. This sours the general atmosphere making working life much more difficult for its members and a real them and us culture.

If you are a guard and are happy with your union boss getting paid £137k and having only one 'negotiating' tool in his locker to justify his existence, fine. Just don't expect any sympathy. Try running a more thoughtful campaign, admit publicly where existing terms and conditions need tonne looked at and hey presto, we might get somewhere.

This is not to suggest that DaFT or Chris Grayling have shown any particular competence either. I find the Minsters attitude to be particularly poor and undeducated, but the RMT has to rise above that. Passengers would soon respond to a more thoughtful approach from the RMT and the Tories and civil service would get their backside in gear if they felt votes were on the line, so to speak.

 

[northwichcat]

I know you are going to say that the few minutes the guard spends closing the doors is time lost selling tickets but I dispute this .
Before today when I have been carrying out revenue duties with someone else doing my doors for me I have still had to stand out of the way not selling tickets at the time we are approaching and are in a station to allow passengers to move down the aisles to get on and off .

If you're in a carriage standing aside then it's easier to note who's just got on and sat in the part of the carriage that they've already done or when a passenger who was standing in one area, has gone and sat down in another area, or whether the person who goes in to the toilet just after a station call is a new passenger or not.

On the latter point I once decided to go to the toilet just after leaving a station (which is when I normally go if I do as it means I don't lose my seat to someone who gets on while I'm in the toilet.) About 60 seconds after I went in to the toilet the guard was banging on the door and saying she was waiting outside to see my ticket (she had already seen it.) Possibly someone had been in the toilet when she had last walked through the train but as it was a service with frequent stops she practically wasted all the time between 2 station calls to wait to see my ticket again!

 

[muz379]

If you're in a carriage standing aside then it's easier to note who's just got on and sat in the part of the carriage that they've already done or when a passenger who was standing in one area, has gone and sat down in another area, or whether the person who goes in to the toilet just after a station call is a new passenger or not.

Ofc if you are paying attention on the platform who is getting on and off then you will have a vague idea of who has got on at each station anyway when you check tickets .

And with intermediate door control panels you would be in exactly the same position as to telling who has got on and sat where in the carriage you are working from .

I don't really understand the comment about TOC's benefitting financially from Sunday working. Are you saying profits for Sundays are counted as cream for the TOC and that Sunday's are profitable for TOCs? I would be surprised considering the service is all at off-peak fares.

Currently guards at Northern are paid for a 35 hour week excluding sundays . With sundays outside of the week all of this is overtime at a premium but not pensionable .

If you want to bring sundays inside the week guards are still going to be on a 35 hour contract because the RMT would never accept increasing the working week . The RMT is also only going to agree to sundays in the week if it leads to an increase in salary which would be pensionable . I also personally dont want sundays in the week if it changes the mostly 4 day working week .

So to summarise sundays in the week for the TOC means more guards, and higher guards salary all of which increases their pension costs , not to mention maintaining competency , uniform , equipment , sickness cover,hr costs etc etc for increased number of guards quickly adds up .

Keeping them outside the week and relying on overtime means the same number of guards and the same guards salary , only paying overtime not pensionable .

The fact that guards would be on a 35 hour week now incorporating sunday means the overall number of guards must be increased to ensure cover for all work . This will need to include significant spare resources for sundays as any other day because bringing sundays in the week and getting rid of the premium overtime rate would probably just destroy any incentive for people to volunteer for a sunday as is currently the case with saturdays .

Another thing to bear in mind is you could actually end up wasting a load of money having resources stood idle on a sunday . Given the number of engineering closures on a sunday currently if a large number of services need cancelling you can just roster less overtime . If people are committed to work it then you have to pay them and bring them in even when there is no work for them

 

[Carlisle]

Ofc if you are paying attention on the platform who is getting on and off then you will have a vague idea of who has got on at each station anyway when you check tickets .

And with intermediate door control panels you would be in exactly the same position as to telling who has got on and sat where in the carriage you are working from .


Currently guards at Northern are paid for a 35 hour week excluding sundays . With sundays outside of the week all of this is overtime at a premium but not pensionable .

If you want to bring sundays inside the week guards are still going to be on a 35 hour contract because the RMT would never accept increasing the working week . The RMT is also only going to agree to sundays in the week if it leads to an increase in salary which would be pensionable . I also personally dont want sundays in the week if it changes the mostly 4 day working week .

So to summarise sundays in the week for the TOC means more guards, and higher guards salary all of which increases their pension costs , not to mention maintaining competency , uniform , equipment , sickness cover,hr costs etc etc for increased number of guards quickly adds up .

Keeping them outside the week and relying on overtime means the same number of guards and the same guards salary , only paying overtime not pensionable .

The fact that guards would be on a 35 hour week now incorporating sunday means the overall number of guards must be increased to ensure cover for all work . This will need to include significant spare resources for sundays as any other day because bringing sundays in the week and getting rid of the premium overtime rate would probably just destroy any incentive for people to volunteer for a sunday as is currently the case with saturdays .

Another thing to bear in mind is you could actually end up wasting a load of money having resources stood idle on a sunday . Given the number of engineering closures on a sunday currently if a large number of services need cancelling you can just roster less overtime . If people are committed to work it then you have to pay them and bring them in even when there is no work for them

Judging by your post, it sounds like a properly trained OBS type role on more flexible T&Cs introduced on northern would ultimately prove better value for money for everyone who contributes to funding the railway as simply recruiting lots more traditional guards for the new services on current T&Cs would be both more expensive initially then cost even more at a later date in order to bribe them all to accept Sunday's in their normal working week

 

[Tomnick]

If the overtime rate is 12 per cent that is not too bad. However, it would be much better to have property resourced services within normal contract hours. Every 12 per cent adds up to more expensive fares.

Just as Sundays are almost certainly (significantly) cheaper to run outside the working week, it's cheaper to rely on a certain amount of overtime during the rest of the week too. If you choose to use overtime to cover some work, then you pay their hourly rate plus possibly a premium. If you choose instead to fill all vacancies at a depot (which should provide sufficient spare cover for annual leave, sickness, training, assessment etc.), then you pay their hourly rate plus the extra cost of pension/NI contributions, uniform, equipment, management time, annual leave, sick leave - almost certainly greater than the overtime rate even with a hefty premium - and you pay that all year round, even in the naturally quieter months when you're just paying folk to sit spare.

Judging by your post, it sounds like a properly trained OBS type role on more flexible T&Cs introduced on northern would ultimately prove better value for money for everyone who contributes to funding the railway as simply recruiting lots more traditional guards for the new services on current T&Cs would be both more expensive initially then cost even more at a later date in order to bribe them all to accept Sunday's in their normal working week

...or a properly trained Guard type role on more flexible T&Cs? You don't have to be an OBS to be more flexible. There are plenty of examples of new starter Guards (and other grades) on different, less favourable, conditions than existing employees.

 

[Carlisle]

..or a properly trained Guard type role on more flexible T&Cs? You don't have to be an OBS to be more flexible. There are plenty of examples of new starter Guards (and other grades) on different, less favourable, conditions than existing employees.

Yes I agree that may well be another option if the union was willing to allow it

 

[HH]

If the overtime rate is 12 per cent that is not too bad. However, it would be much better to have property resourced services within normal contract hours. Every 12 per cent adds up to more expensive fares.

Only someone completely ignorant of how things work could write such nonsense. There are downsides to relying on overtime, but one reason it's so prevalent is because it is cheaper:

1. You only pay for what you use, you're not having to pay for holiday, training, sickness, etc. (more than 12%)

2. You don't pay pension on overtime (and that's about 12% on its own).

 

[74A]

Only someone completely ignorant of how things work could write such nonsense. There are downsides to relying on overtime, but one reason it's so prevalent is because it is cheaper:

1. You only pay for what you use, you're not having to pay for holiday, training, sickness, etc. (more than 12%)

2. You don't pay pension on overtime (and that's about 12% on its own).

You do have to pay for holiday now.

 

[4973]

Only someone completely ignorant of how things work could write such nonsense. There are downsides to relying on overtime, but one reason it's so prevalent is because it is cheaper:

1. You only pay for what you use, you're not having to pay for holiday, training, sickness, etc. (more than 12%)

2. You don't pay pension on overtime (and that's about 12% on its own).

Rule of thumb is that the total cost of employing someone is twice what you pay that person (in salary/basic wage - overtime doesn't count in that equation).

 

[northwichcat]

Rule of thumb is that the total cost of employing someone is twice what you pay that person (in salary/basic wage - overtime doesn't count in that equation).

It varies quite a bit depending on your salary. For instance, employer NI for someone on £30,000 is not double what it is for someone on £15,000. While the cost a training provider charges for a place on a first aid cost is the same whether you earn £15,000 or £75,000. Then there's other things like uniform, employee handbooks, providing you with a corporate email address which aren't proportional to your salary.

 

[northwichcat]

You do have to pay for holiday now.

There's a legal requirement for employees who work 5 days per week to get 28 days paid holiday per year, 8 of which can be Bank Holidays. If you don't work 5 days a week then the legal minimum varies e.g. if you are required to work 4 days a week the legal minimum is 22.5 days, while if you are required to work Mon-Fri and alternate Saturdays the legal minimum would increase from 28 days per year to 31 days. However, if you volunteer to work alternate Saturdays as overtime the legal minimum remains as 28 days.

 

[lejog]

It varies quite a bit depending on your salary. For instance, employer NI for someone on £30,000 is not double what it is for someone on £15,000. While the cost a training provider charges for a place on a first aid cost is the same whether you earn £15,000 or £75,000. Then there's other things like uniform, employee handbooks, providing you with a corporate email address which aren't proportional to your salary.

Employer NI for someone on £30k is more than double that for someone on £15k, after the initial zero band its a straight 13.8% on all salaries. There's no cap like employees NI.

 

[HH]

You do have to pay for holiday now.

You misunderstood. I was talking about why overtime is cheaper. It means that you don't have to pay for the holiday of new staff.

 

[HH]

Employer NI for someone on £30k is more than double that for someone on £15k, after the initial zero band its a straight 13.8% on all salaries. There's no cap like employees NI.

Yes, so overall NI% is a bit higher for employing less staff and using overtime, but this is minor compared to the savings.

 

[lejog]

Rule of thumb is that the total cost of employing someone is twice what you pay that person (in salary/basic wage - overtime doesn't count in that equation).

Where I work. we use a multiplier of 2.2 for total salary related costs, which includes all taxes, benefits, training costs plus an appropriate proportion of the salaries of the extra HR, administration and managerial staff needed to employ someone.

Assuming 220 working days a year, it means the salary cost of employing someone on £40k is £88k or £400 per day.

 

[theironroad]

Where I work. we use a multiplier of 2.2 for total salary related costs, which includes all taxes, benefits, training costs plus an appropriate proportion of the salaries of the extra HR, administration and managerial staff needed to employ someone.

Assuming 220 working days a year, it means the salary cost of employing someone on £40k is £88k or £400 per day.

Can I ask what area of business/industry you work in. I'm a bit surprised how high that multiplier is.

 

[HH]

If we're talking railways, then it varies considerably from operation to operation, but consider the following:

Overtime, including Rest Day Working and Sundays. The biggest item and the most variable, but not directly relatable to this issue. Could easily be 30% of base pay.
National Insurance & Pension. In each case after the nil band these are big costs, 13.8% for NI and c.15% for Pension. NI is on all pay, Pension only on basic.
Other pay. Variable; can include commission and various allowances; holiday pay.
Other costs. Hardest to put a figure on; there's the cost of days lost - even ignoring normal leave, this includes sickness, training, union duty release, maternity/paternity leave, medicals; then there's all the incidental costs, such as uniform and kit, rent and other costs for the depot; finally there is the knock-on costs, such as line management, HR/payroll, etc. (although one shouldn't exaggerate the cost of the latter - one payroll clerk will process hundreds of staff a week).

It all adds up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can I ask what area of business/industry you work in. I'm a bit surprised how high that multiplier is.

I've on many occasions seen "roughly twice as much" quoted.

 

[lejog]

Can I ask what area of business/industry you work in. I'm a bit surprised how high that multiplier is.

One in which overtime is unpaid! I can assure that its by no means atypical.

 

[HH]

I missed this myself earlier: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/772807/Rail-trains-unions-old-way-working-Southern-strikes probably because the headline and body copy appear to be different stories. It seems of interest. Shame that wor Mick descended to his usual claptrap about foreign companies profits though.

 

[northwichcat]

One in which overtime is unpaid! I can assure that its by no means atypical.

It's how some companies find themselves named and shamed for not paying the national minimum wage. Offer someone £15,000 a year for and say you are normally required to work 37.5 hours a week then it complies with NMW but start adding on too many extra hours without offering additional pay and you don't comply.

 

[northwichcat]

Pension only on basic.

But worth noting the employee and employer pension contribution is also only on basic, so by not having a pension contribution on overtime it means your take home pay is greater. That could be an incentive for you to do overtime if you want some extra money something in the short term like a holiday or Christmas.

 

[lejog]

It's how some companies find themselves named and shamed for not paying the national minimum wage. Offer someone £15,000 a year for and say you are normally required to work 37.5 hours a week then it complies with NMW but start adding on too many extra hours without offering additional pay and you don't comply.

True, but falling foul of national minimum wage legislation really isn't a consideration where I work. I'd agree that extension of unpaid overtime away from better paid "professional" jobs to those near the minimum wage is shocking, but somewhat off-topic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

True, but falling foul of national minimum wage legislation really isn't a consideration where I work. I'd agree that extension of unpaid overtime away from better paid "professional" jobs to those near the minimum wage is shocking, but somewhat off-topic.

With regards to your comment about being "off-topic", I wonder how some of the recent thread postings on wages and salaries have anything to do with the DOO aspect that appears in the title of this thread.

 

[lejog]

With regards to your comment about being "off-topic", I wonder how some of the recent thread postings on wages and salaries have anything to do with the DOO aspect that appears in the title of this thread.

Well I believe the matter of how many tickets would cover a guard's salary on a Manchester to Southport journey was raised, hence the discussion on the real costs of employing someone being rather higher than their salary was relevant.

 

[Carlisle]

I missed this myself earlier: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/772807/Rail-trains-unions-old-way-working-Southern-strikes probably because the headline and body copy appear to be different stories. It seems of interest. Shame that wor Mick descended to his usual claptrap about foreign companies profits though.

Rather like an appeal to the population of the Middle East to embrace peace

 

[FordFocus]

With regards to your comment about being "off-topic", I wonder how some of the recent thread postings on wages and salaries have anything to do with the DOO aspect that appears in the title of this thread.

Paul, you've been on here long enough to realise it's in the forums long tradition of having to scrutinise railway staffs salary, terms of employment and perks at every opportunity. Some posters in this very topic love to ramble on about it a little bit too much