Arriva Not Providing Alternative Transport

[ANorthernGuard]

Troll = A troublemaker. An immature rabble-rouser. A person who has no interest in serious discussion or debate, and is not here to learn or share.

1 or 2 people on this forum methinks lol

 

[Flamingo]

It is funny that a lot of people seem to bemoan the loss of a "national" rail service, yet think that wages should depend on the average where they live. Lots of posters saying "They are well-paid for the area" despite ATW having very low wages comopared to other TOC's.

Funnily enough, shops, banks, mortgages, cars, petrol, taxes, etc all seem to be using the same money and charging the same prices in Wales as the rest of the UK.

 

[1V53]

I hope the conductors don't have to go the same way as the drivers. Most of us would accept a couple of opt-outs a year (ie if we can't find anyone at our depot to cover and we need the day off for a family event we can use an opt out and they could cover it from another depot or split the shift) which would be a minimal cost per year.

Interestingly though, I was talking to a London Midland guard last week who says their basic is going to £27k this year with no Sunday committment. Ours will be that NEXT year. Five years ago we were paid more than LM. I am just using this to demonstrate how we have fallen behind, selling conditions and still earning less. I am not saying we should stay ahead of them, but I think the fact is pertinent given both are profitable companies, ATW's reliability is better than LM and both operate in the same UK Rail arena.

Now before we get the usual 'you cant compare' arguments (save it, we have had it enough on the other ATW thread) it is my belief that the majority would accept this Sunday commitment given a clear agreement (ie how it will work, what the notice periods are, leave arrangements, extra diagram arrangements etc etc). Our depot recently had 6 extra diagrams one Sunday - the way the company are talking it seems while you may have coverage for your Sunday, four days before it could be 'oh sorry we have engineering work, we are running all the trains to Llandudno Junction on Sunday, so you can't have a day off for your sisters wedding after all'. This is overtime we are talking about.... I'm all for give and take, and can live with my diagram being extended by up to three hours with just a few days notice, but sometimes, a couple of times a year, I might really need to opt out of this (1 in 3 Sundays) rostered overtime. I'll do a few extra even, but when the timing is wrong I can't use a leave day so ATW give me a limited lifeline that I can, if I give you agreed notice, use to guarantee a Sunday off twice a year. Is that an unreasonable request?

With a bit of a 'give and take' agreement, where we agree to a limited quota per person per year (say 2), and depot per Sunday 'opt outs', they could have it signed off. It is the lack of detail that is making staff suspicious. Nobody in their right minds agrees to changes in conditions without knowing the detail, but that is what ATW expects us to do. Agree first, sort out details later.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I hope the conductors don't have to go the same way as the drivers. Most of us would accept a couple of opt-outs a year (ie if we can't find anyone at our depot to cover and we need the day off for a family event we can use an opt out and they could cover it from another depot or split the shift) which would be a minimal cost per year.

Interestingly though, I was talking to a London Midland guard last week who says their basic is going to £27k this year with no Sunday committment. Ours will be that NEXT year. Five years ago we were paid more than LM. I am just using this to demonstrate how we have fallen behind, selling conditions and still earning less. I am not saying we should stay ahead of them, but I think the fact is pertinent given both are profitable companies, ATW's reliability is better than LM and both operate in the same UK Rail arena.

Now before we get the usual 'you cant compare' arguments (save it, we have had it enough on the other ATW thread) it is my belief that the majority would accept this Sunday commitment given a clear agreement (ie how it will work, what the notice periods are, leave arrangements, extra diagram arrangements etc etc). Our depot recently had 6 extra diagrams one Sunday - the way the company are talking it seems while you may have coverage for your Sunday, four days before it could be 'oh sorry we have engineering work, we are running all the trains to Llandudno Junction on Sunday, so you can't have a day off for your sisters wedding after all'. This is overtime we are talking about....

With a bit of a 'give and take' agreement, where we agree to a limited quota per person per year (say 2), and depot per Sunday 'opt outs', they could have it signed off. It is the lack of detail that is making staff suspicious. Nobody in their right minds agrees to changes in conditions without knowing the detail, but that is what ATW expects us to do. Agree first, sort out details later.

27K!!!!! I only need 4.5K a year extra to catch up then lol

 

[Flamingo]

I wouldn't get out of bed for £27K

 

[1V53]

I wouldn't get out of bed for £27K

I shouldn't think you would! But I hope you would slate me for earning such an extremely outrageous amount regardless

 

[ainsworth74]

Troll = A troublemaker. An immature rabble-rouser. A person who has no interest in serious discussion or debate, and is not here to learn or share.

Much like Bob Crow then?

*Run and hides*

 

[Flamingo]

I shouldn't think you would! But I hope you would slate me for earning such an extremely outrageous amount regardless

That's my average month's commission!

 

[tbtc]

It is funny that a lot of people seem to bemoan the loss of a "national" rail service, yet think that wages should depend on the average where they live. Lots of posters saying "They are well-paid for the area" despite ATW having very low wages comopared to other TOC's.

Funnily enough, shops, banks, mortgages, cars, petrol, taxes, etc all seem to be using the same money and charging the same prices in Wales as the rest of the UK.

Well, yes and no. The "cost of living" in some places is a lot cheaper. If you compare the cost of buying a house, the cost of a round of drinks, the cost of local taxes like council tax... these can all be a lot cheaper in some towns.

However, some other things are the same nationwide (same interest rate, same VAT rate, same income tax rates etc, national pricing on lots of products)

This was the argument about the National Minimum Wage when it came in. You couldn't live on £8/ hour in central London, but that might be a decent wage in Barnsley (for example, where house prices are a lot lower, amongst other things)

 

[1V53]

Well, yes and no. The "cost of living" in some places is a lot cheaper. If you compare the cost of buying a house, the cost of a round of drinks, the cost of local taxes like council tax... these can all be a lot cheaper in some towns.

However, some other things are the same nationwide (same interest rate, same VAT rate, same income tax rates etc, national pricing on lots of products)

This was the argument about the National Minimum Wage when it came in. You couldn't live on £8/ hour in central London, but that might be a decent wage in Barnsley (for example, where house prices are a lot lower, amongst other things)

ATW are using the argument that the cost of living is less in Wales. The problem with this argument is that they have depots in Chester, Crewe and Shrewsbury, which are not in Wales. Anyone who knows Cheshire and Shropshire will know they are not particularly cheap places to live either, so if ATW really feel this is an effective way to calculate wages then I await the Cheshire and Shropshire weighting!

The fact ATW use arguments like that, and say 'driving a train in Wales is like a milk float compared to driving a HST is like a jumbo jet' really shows they are just making lame excuses. They don't have a robust defence so spout nonsense.

 

[313103]

27K!!!!! I only need 4.5K a year extra to catch up then lol

I only need £2,500 to catch up and i live in London!

 

[Metroland]

ATW are using the argument that the cost of living is less in Wales. The problem with this argument is that they have depots in Chester, Crewe and Shrewsbury, which are not in Wales. Anyone who knows Cheshire and Shropshire will know they are not particularly cheap places to live either, so if ATW really feel this is an effective way to calculate wages then I await the Cheshire and Shropshire weighting!

The fact ATW use arguments like that, and say 'driving a train in Wales is like a milk float compared to driving a HST is like a jumbo jet' really shows they are just making lame excuses. They don't have a robust defence so spout nonsense.

You make it sound like train crew are poorly paid, lets have a look at some salaries should we: (some of them are averages)

Fireman £28,199
Teacher £21-29k
A&E nurse £20k
Academic Librarian £20k
Account Agent £12k
Bank Branch Manager £35k
Baker £15k
Bus Driver £23k
c++ Developer (computer programmer) £30k
CAD Design engineer £22k
Estate Agent £25k
Fabricator/Welder £21k
Game artist £22k
Garage Mechanic £15k
HR Officer £18k
Land Agent £22k
Laboratory Manager £32k
Magazine Journalist £22k
Office Admin Manager £16k
Radio DJ £26k
Sales and Accounts manager £20k
Sound Engineer £25k
Tanker Driver £30k
Tax assistant £19k
Telephone Banker £13k
Telephone engineer £24k
Toolmaker £25k
University Lecturer £36k
Zoo keeper £16k

http://www.mysalary.co.uk/2008-salary-data.php

Train Manager (Guard) 30k
Oh and Train Driver £37k (with Eurostar, East coast, Virgin all being above 45k basic)

for a more detailed breakdown

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zLSRRJiKb...O4EDZyw/s1600/train-driver-pay-rates-2010.jpg

ATW doesn't seem to be doing that badly and is above First Great Western and Scotrail, and about the same as London Midland and NXEA.

I shall make no judgement whatsoever about salaries, suffice to say many of the jobs in the above list are graduate jobs or have high degrees of competition, this compared to a job you can walk off the street with a few GCSEs and be on £30-45k after a few months to a year or so. This is probably why you are getting little, if any sympathy when rejecting a 12% pay rise because you have to work Sundays.

Just a polite note.

 

[313103]

I would rather have no pay rise rather then be forsake my current terms which allow me to have Sundays off. Then be made to work 26 out of 52.

I did the test that your link provided Metroland and it states that the cross sector salary for a Conductor is £22,000 so i earn £2,888 above the going average. I am most fortunate then.

 

[1V53]

You make it sound like train crew are poorly paid, lets have a look at some salaries should we: (some of them are averages)

Fireman £28,199
Teacher £21-29k
A&E nurse £20k
Academic Librarian £20k
Account Agent £12k
Bank Branch Manager £35k
Baker £15k
Bus Driver £23k
c++ Developer (computer programmer) £30k
CAD Design engineer £22k
Estate Agent £25k
Fabricator/Welder £21k
Game artist £22k
Garage Mechanic £15k
HR Officer £18k
Land Agent £22k
Laboratory Manager £32k
Magazine Journalist £22k
Office Admin Manager £16k
Radio DJ £26k
Sales and Accounts manager £20k
Sound Engineer £25k
Tanker Driver £30k
Tax assistant £19k
Telephone Banker £13k
Telephone engineer £24k
Toolmaker £25k
University Lecturer £36k
Zoo keeper £16k

http://www.mysalary.co.uk/2008-salary-data.php

Train Manager (Guard) 30k
Oh and Train Driver £37k (with Eurostar, East coast, Virgin all being above 45k basic)

for a more detailed breakdown

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zLSRRJiKb...O4EDZyw/s1600/train-driver-pay-rates-2010.jpg

ATW doesn't seem to be doing that badly and is above First Great Western and Scotrail, and about the same as London Midland and NXEA.

I shall make no judgement whatsoever about salaries, suffice to say many of the jobs in the above list are graduate jobs or have high degrees of competition, this compared to a job you can walk off the street with a few GCSEs and be on £30-45k after a few months to a year or so. This is probably why you are getting little, if any sympathy when rejecting a 12% pay rise because you have to work Sundays.

Just a polite note.

Well I shall make a few 'polite notes' too:

1. You refer to "you" in reply to me. I am not rejecting a 12% rise because I am not a train driver. Something you would realise if you spent more time reading what people say.
2. Not everything is about the money, which is why a majority don't want the money simply want to keep their conditions.
3. Few of the above jobs will start at 3am one week and be finishing 3am for another week. Nurse and Firemen are the only ones of relevance. Yes traincrew are paid for very antisocial hours. Shocking isn't it! Should just be glad to have a job!
4. Finally and most importantly: None of the above jobs see's you and one other responsible for the safety of hundreds of peoples safety for the duration of the shift, day in, day out. In an emergency traincrew are trained to lead, not take orders. I don't see the wages of 'A&E consultant, chief fire officer" up there in your list (as the others are irrelevant)

I'm wasting my time as you have proved yourself to simply want to continually bang the drum on one agenda: traincrew are overpaid and greedy. You can use any statistics to prove such theories and I could cite binmen in Wolverhampton on 45k to "prove" we are underpaid.

You have your opinion, banging on about lower paid workers doesn't actually prove anything, as I could do a list with higher wages which could "prove" traincrew are underpaid, which would be as pointless as yours.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You make it sound like train crew are poorly paid, lets have a look at some salaries should we: (some of them are averages)

Fireman £28,199
Teacher £21-29k
A&E nurse £20k
Academic Librarian £20k
Account Agent £12k
Bank Branch Manager £35k
Baker £15k
Bus Driver £23k
c++ Developer (computer programmer) £30k
CAD Design engineer £22k
Estate Agent £25k
Fabricator/Welder £21k
Game artist £22k
Garage Mechanic £15k
HR Officer £18k
Land Agent £22k
Laboratory Manager £32k
Magazine Journalist £22k
Office Admin Manager £16k
Radio DJ £26k
Sales and Accounts manager £20k
Sound Engineer £25k
Tanker Driver £30k
Tax assistant £19k
Telephone Banker £13k
Telephone engineer £24k
Toolmaker £25k
University Lecturer £36k
Zoo keeper £16k

http://www.mysalary.co.uk/2008-salary-data.php

Train Manager (Guard) 30k
Oh and Train Driver £37k (with Eurostar, East coast, Virgin all being above 45k basic)

for a more detailed breakdown

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_zLSRRJiKb...O4EDZyw/s1600/train-driver-pay-rates-2010.jpg

ATW doesn't seem to be doing that badly and is above First Great Western and Scotrail, and about the same as London Midland and NXEA.

I shall make no judgement whatsoever about salaries, suffice to say many of the jobs in the above list are graduate jobs or have high degrees of competition, this compared to a job you can walk off the street with a few GCSEs and be on £30-45k after a few months to a year or so. This is probably why you are getting little, if any sympathy when rejecting a 12% pay rise because you have to work Sundays.

Just a polite note.

hmm i'm a Guard I don't earn anywhere near 30k your figures are factually inaccurate as every job has different levels or grades, btw I'm on £22.500 so you are just a little out, for someone who tries to rely so heavily on facts you tend to come out with very few!

 

[1V53]

hmm i'm a Guard I don't earn anywhere near 30k your figures are factually inaccurate as every job has different levels or grades, btw I'm on £22.500 so you are just a little out, for someone who tries to rely so heavily on facts you tend to come out with very few!

What's the saying? "lies damned lies and statistics". I'm on £24k as a guard (not bad at all, and Im not complaining) and being asked to sell conditions to reach 27k over 3 years. I'd rather have 24k and keep my conditions, but actually I think Metroland's figures show I should be fighting for 30k and keep my conditions! But that 30k is now! So I should have 30k then 3 years of above inflation rises for my conditions surely?!

Just shows how pointless statistics can be. But as I said, they can be used in isolation to 'prove' any point you try to make. All Metroland wants to do is diss traincrew.

 

[merlodlliw]

Seagull, all due respect, Gareth Marston, Is one of only a few on Rail Forums
who put there name to a thread. your quote

"So it rather baffles me to find such a lack of support for those very workers -"

Gareth as done more than most to promote the line, to try & get the hourly service going and more, your quote above is totally incorrect, whether you work at the Dept or have a very close involvement is up to you, but this thread was not started about £, and I think the most paramount importance is being lost,that is the passenger and the effect on the passenger during these times of recession when the lifeline is withdrawn.

Your comments about Llaeth should be referred to Peter Leopard, who made the statement, not inferred to others.

this is the quote from the the ATW HQ Circus,

Diplomacy, Arriva style

The Operations Director of Arriva Trains Wales, Peter Leppard, interviewed on the radio as the drivers' strike approached, was asked why train drivers in Wales should be paid less than train drivers in other parts of the UK. There is a great difference between driving high-speed trains and local ones, he opined. 'It's the difference between driving a jumbo jet and a milk float.'


Bob

 

[anthony263]

Bus Driver £23k

which company was that with as i certainly didnt earn that much when i was driving buses full time?

the most any bus driver i know has been paid was £20,000

 

[quarella]

Bus Driver £23k

which company was that with as i certainly didnt earn that much when i was driving buses full time?

the most any bus driver i know has been paid was £20,000

From the Jobs section of an independent bus operator'a website based in the West Midlands area.

Job Type: Days , Evenings , Weekends
Hours: 48+ Per Week Monday To Sunday Between 6am -8.30pm
Duration: Permanent Only
Salary: £6.50 - £8.00 PER HOUR

 

[Metroland]

All Metroland wants to do is diss traincrew.

Well as the strike concerns train crew and train crew salaries, I suspect that would be appropriate. (Yes i know you are not a driver, but this strike involves that grade)

If you wish to discuss Florists salaries in Nuneaton, clearly that would be inappropriate.

If you wonder why most people consider train crew adequately rewarded, and find it hard to understand why a strike over 12% salary rise (and I accept conditions are attached) has little sympathy, look at comparable salaries, and conditions in other jobs, as well as the current economic climate.

I really don't think you will convince many you have a special case that's all, and most people I suspect consider the union militant with it's members out of touch. If you want to call that disrespect so be it. Again, the only loss is yours if you wish to 'win the propaganda war' as you put it.

From my own personal point of view I think the wages are adequate to fairly well rewarded given the level of responsibility and skill. While I do not think you should be forced down to minimum wage, at the same time, I think restraint is the morally right thing to do in this climate, not just from train crew but everyone in an industry which draws heavily on tax payer support. That includes NR directors, right the way down. That's my person opinion, and I feel it is fairly well shared.

I think you should be very careful about discussing union business on a public forums, most people are on nothing like the same salaries and worked far harder to get where they got. While they are losing their jobs and taking cuts to keep their job, jokes about salaries and striking are in my view inappropriate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

hmm i'm a Guard I don't earn anywhere near 30k your figures are factually inaccurate as every job has different levels or grades, btw I'm on £22.500 so you are just a little out, for someone who tries to rely so heavily on facts you tend to come out with very few!

I made it quite clear that they were averages at the top. From my own reading other than that site, a guard/conductors job is £25k, but maybe the 30k figure includes overtime? They site figures are compiled from surveys and averaged.

 

[tirphil]

Only Island Line and Tyne & Wear Metro drivers earn less than ATW drivers. The source quoted that suggested Scotrail and FGW drivers earn less is an incorrect source.

I may be presumptious here but I would suggest 'seagull' may have some Saltley connections.

 

[Metroland]

From the Jobs section of an independent bus operator'a website based in the West Midlands area.

Indeed, I think bus drivers are appallingly underpaid considering some buses are carrying as many people as local train services through busy streets, with the hazards that involves.

 

[rodders133]

find it hard to understand why a strike over 12% salary rise (and I accept conditions are attached) has little sympathy


Like I stated on the other thread. This is not a pay rise. The pay rise is 3.7%.

The different amounts that add up to the 12% are not pay rises. ATW wish to purchase something that is not for sale. They plucked out a figure of 2.5% to buy this thing they want.
If you bought a car from an auction or somewhere, and you paid £1k for it. You really like the car. It is reliable, economical and everything you want in a car. Better still, the book price for the car is £1.5k You are really pleased with it and wish to keep it.
Someone walks past your house one day, and says `nice car, I would like to buy it`.
You say `umm sorry its not for sale, look theres no for sale sign in the window, and I have not advertised it anywhere`.
`That doesnt matter` they say, ` I would like to buy it and I will give you £1200 for it`.

`but its not for sale`

`I dont care, I am going to buy your car and Im going to give you £1200 for it`

etc etc

 

[Metroland]

Yep, we understand all that, hence my referral to a 'compromise'. Now, some people might not want to compromise, and on one level they would be well within their rights.

My point is many staff are too inward looking. The railway survives on good service and convincing the public is worthwhile and value for money. The public do not have to subsidise the railway, nor use it.

While the railway has been a massive success in terms of attracting new business, getting punctuality up, which is really good news and staff have got to be congratulated, there are some problems still with costs and industrial relations.

Now, I don't apportion any blame, but anyone that regularly reads a newspaper, listens to public opinion, reads a railway magazine knows it's an industry wide problem, not all of the industries making. Nevertheless, antidote is going to consist of new working practices, costs overall coming down, and yes compromise with new working practices - such as DOO working, Sunday working, new ways of operating, and so on.

Why is this important?

The case for many railways in Wales is actually quite marginal, whether they exist in 20 years time is going to be whether the service is cost effective, reliable and above all the public support it's retention.

Therefore you need to get the public on side, the whole industry. PR generally is appalling, staff attitudes both on train and on forums at times, sometimes leave a lot to be desired.

I'm definitely no expert on PR, but I do know strikes like these in these sorts of climates do enormous damage to everyone involved. They reduce the chances of both public and especially private investment.

Anyone that has an interest in the railway should care, the only reason I'm doggedly making these points (and indeed on the forum) is I care about the whole thing (misguided loyalty maybe?). I'm probably not making them well, but the intention is good, to reason with people to just look at the bigger picture and sort these issues out before we all lose faith. I've said more than enough, so I shall bow out.

 

[1V53]

Metroland, I actually don't disagree with anything you have said there. I am pleased to see you are realising it isn't "all rail staff" which has been inferred by some at times on this subject. I quite agree a strike should be a last resort, this is the first strike on ATW after many years of operation. Yes one strike is too many. These issues have been smoking away for quite some time and several strikes on this issue were called off to allow more dialogue.

I'd also agree there are some entrenched militant unreasonable greedy traincrew out there. To deny that would be ridiculous. But the problem is that you and others keep banging on about pay levels, which is not the main issue here. Again some train drivers want unrealistic increases, agreed. However a majority want to be treated fairly, some recognition of their concerns, and a mature and calm dialogue to sort it out.