Arriva Not Providing Alternative Transport

[1V53]

The previous Sunday action has been drivers choosing to throw in their overtime Sundays. This time the union are telling members not to book on for any overtime, including Sundays. That is the big difference between previous (what the company labelled as 'Unofficial industrial action' but was simply drivers exercising their rights not to work, although let's not argue the legal terminology as I do understand why it can be labelled thus) and present 'official' action.

As for the RMT and ASLEF, I am aware of recent instances where RMT have offered to undertake joint legal action with Aslef but Aslef ignored them so both are spending almost 50k taking the same objection to the same judge over the same issue. I also understand Aslef refused to go into joint talks with RMT last week with the company. I am an RMT member but would join Aslef if I became a driver. I have to say it is pathetic and I really want to bash their heads together. They could achieve so much more fighting some issues together.

 

[Greenback]

Pardon my ignorance and please feel free to correct me. I have not read all the treads related to this strike by Arriva but the fact there are no bus replacements may be due to Arriva running most of the buses in the area!!!! Is this not a possibility??

Arriva hardly run any buses in this area but there are still no trains!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Obviously you are member of the RMT, ASLEF over the years has always been there for the drivers and I have always had a great response to them on many occasions both as a manager an ASLEF rep and a driver - was it not the RMT who originally called a strike when the rugby match was on in Cardiff and due to very poor publicity and also not enough driver members pulled out of the strike as ATW would have still run a 80% service? 6 years ago RMT tried their utmost to poach drivers from the ASLEF union with posters and ther reps offering their services at cheaper monthly subs rates, after looking in to this and negociating with the drivers it was discovered that the reps for the RMT were not at all interested in the drivers because as you know there has always been an US & THem scenario between Guards and drivers when it has come to the saleries and working conditions - Where is your source for:

1. ASLEF hate the drivers who have gone to the RMT
2. ASLEF are in it for themselves and due to its actions tends to seriously impede the actions of the RMT and the wellbeing of the RMT's membership
3. ASLEF putting up their subscriptions (as they almost went bankrupt!)


It is easy to harp on about another union and lay down your own views but without evidence on damning accusations like the 3 above I relly think you should stay with the facts.

For your information ASLEF members were not going to cross the picket line if the RMT were going out earlier in the year and this is fact as I have spoken to many ASLEF members regarding the picket line breaching that RMT apparently are partaking in over the next couple of days be it, drivers, guards, station staff or other grades.

All 3 points are common knowledge around the majority of depots, hence alot of drivers leaving ASLEF, just ask around they are not accusations those are comments made by EX ASLEF members, everyone knows due to legal action by one of ASLEF's former heads Shaun Brady I believe the union almost went bust, the point do you remember a certain Guards strike about 10 years ago when FNW guards were on strike, the ASLEF drivers carried out guards duties there fore seriously damaging the Strike, or what about DOO in scotland when the Drivers "from the suggestion of ASLEF" accepted DOO there by Guards losing jobs if not now but in the future....need I continue

 

[merlodlliw]

Arriva hardly run any buses in this area but there are still no trains!

The rail replacements in North Wales are not Arriva Bus, and if they were, Arriva bus is not on strike.

 

[1V53]

I expect drivers to cross an RMT guards picket line and vice versa. If no trains are running then we want the grades that are not in dispute to report and get paid. It's not as if the drivers are going to go and work trains as guards or vice versa but if that was the case then fair enough I can understand any feelings of betrayal.

If guards also end up in dispute with Atw then I'd like to see coordinated action but the two unions are so stubborn it's never going to happen.

 

[Greenback]

When there are replacement buses around here, they are a hotch potch of companies and vehicles. One Sunday morning it was an unmarked white minibus that turned up! Coming back from Swansea it can be a First Cymru coach!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

they use anyone they can get lol

 

[46100ROYALSCOT]

Many thanks for putting me right regarding Arriva buses.

 

[313103]

1. ASLEF hate the drivers who have gone to the RMT

This taken place in my area of work, and it wasn't because the person didn't go over to ASLEF, it was because the person wanted to stay in RMT and did not want to join ASLEF. So all the ASLEF reps gave this driver mary hell.

2. ASLEF are in it for themselves and due to its actions tends to seriously impede the actions of the RMT and the wellbeing of the RMT's membership

You want hard facts then do you, Well i have already been made surplus to requirements by ASLEF dealing in a DOO deal that meant i would have to move and most of my colleagues were put on the scrapheap. All because DOO gave ASLEF members a higher salary and more job protection!

3. ASLEF putting up their subscriptions (as they almost went bankrupt!)

I cant comment on this as i am not an ASLEF member and couldn't really care and its none of my business.

It is easy to harp on about another union and lay down your own views but without evidence on damning accusations like the 3 above I relly think you should stay with the facts.

For your information ASLEF members were not going to cross the picket line if the RMT were going out earlier in the year and this is fact as I have spoken to many ASLEF members regarding the picket line breaching that RMT apparently are partaking in over the next couple of days be it, drivers, guards, station staff or other grades.

It is always easy to harp on and criticise another union (Your General Secretary does it nearly every month but that is an argument for another day) you will say my union is better then yours and i will say exactly the same. With regard your latter part when RMT drivers did go on strike pray do tell how many ASLEF drivers worked as normal? In other words crossed a picket line (imaginary or real)? As i think only some services around Cardiff and maybe one or two others ATW ran a near normal service, that tells me many ASLEF drivers went to work as normal. So perhaps not as factual as you may think it is.
Pray do tell how many RMT members crossed ASLEF picket lines today (again imaginary and real) and did ATW run any trains?
Once again it is always easy to criticise other unions crossing picket lines (buy the way i have been on more strikes then i can remember and don't seem to recall ANY ASLEF member supporting me!

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Pray do tell how many RMT members crossed ASLEF picket lines today (again imaginary and real) and did ATW run any trains?

a few cardiff-bridgends via the VOG, a few valleys services, a couple of carmarthen - swanseas, and one train from Machynlleth.

 

[merlodlliw]

a few cardiff-bridgends via the VOG, a few valleys services, a couple of carmarthen - swanseas, and one train from Machynlleth.

semi good news for the pax, I presume not all Drivers are unionised,I would not expect pickets at Mach.

Bob

 

[TDK]

Pray do tell how many RMT members crossed ASLEF picket lines today (again imaginary and real) and did ATW run any trains?
Once again it is always easy to criticise other unions crossing picket lines (buy the way i have been on more strikes then i can remember and don't seem to recall ANY ASLEF member supporting me!

I haven't critisised the RMT just the accusations put forward on this forum by an RMT member, it is different, If the RMT had a different leadwe I would consider my options but all the time Bob Crow is the leader I would sooner stay where I am. We all know without a source that all unions are corrupt in one way or another and whatever they do there will always be objection, but all I can go on is the support I have had and also my brothers from ASLE&F over the years and to be honest I cannot fault the support that I have witnessed from ASLE&F, so, until both unions can see eye to eye there is always going to be this rift, I do not look on any fellow driver differently no matter what union they are in unless they go by messroom hearsay by activists who do not have solid evidence to back up their claims.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I haven't critisised the RMT just the accusations put forward on this forum by an RMT member, it is different, If the RMT had a different leadwe I would consider my options but all the time Bob Crow is the leader I would sooner stay where I am. We all know without a source that all unions are corrupt in one way or another and whatever they do there will always be objection, but all I can go on is the support I have had and also my brothers from ASLE&F over the years and to be honest I cannot fault the support that I have witnessed from ASLE&F, so, until both unions can see eye to eye there is always going to be this rift, I do not look on any fellow driver differently no matter what union they are in unless they go by messroom hearsay by activists who do not have solid evidence to back up their claims.

I never criticised any support you have had, just stating facts, that I have been told from numerous depots and drivers who are ASLEF members and also my friends, this solid evidence is codswallop, everyone knows guards got sold down the river by the DOO agreed by ASLEF so their members benefited while the guards either got made redundant or had to move, also common knowledge is the amounts paid out after ASLEF LOST the unfair dismissal case against brought against them by Shaun Brady and the costs involved, also the decreasing membership due to quite a few drivers going over to the RMT, ALSO ASLEF doing everything in their power to make sure Drivers RMT reps are not on LDC's etc. need I continue or are you going to deny all knowledge???

 

[northwichcat]

Even London Midland replace with buses during their "issues" when there is no alternative service. This is far worse as many areas only have Arriva Wales services and so will be completely cut off from rail with no rail service for miles around. Surely they should be forced to provide even a skeleton bus service however overcrowded it gets as 2 days is a long time.

It was even worse with Northern's strike on 27th and 28th December as many bus services weren't running on those days and there were practically no replacement bus services. You had medium sized towns over 10 miles away from the nearest public transport.

I'm sure you realise it is impractical to offer replacement bus services on all routes as there simply aren't enough buses and bus drivers to provide that level of service, especially when some services would need mutiple buses in lieu of one 3 car train.

 

[seagull]

I can confirm that there was a Picket at Machynlleth, all morning and some of the afternoon.
Two ATCU members crossed, but then went home. One RMT member crossed.

Very few members of public / passengers, most of those that did appear were well-wishers and there was no trouble at all.

No trains departed (and only one on Sunday from a member not in ASLEF who was unable to 'chuck in' the Sunday as the required 10 days notice was not given).

 

[CosherB]

Um, why should ATW provide alternative transport arrangements? They provide trains, pay for track access, and employ staff to run the trains. If those staff refuse to work why should ATW go to the expense of providing alternative buses? They've already done everything they are called upon to do to provide a train service.

Maybe the strikers or the union should provide alternative buses? They're the ones preventing the trains from running. They mouth platitudes that they don't want to inconvenience passengers, when of course this is exactly what they do! Providing buses might obviate that a bit!

 

[seagull]

Maybe the strikers or the union should provide alternative buses?

LOL! Thereby causing Arriva very little inconvenience (a service still runs AND they get compensation from the DfT) but causing a massive loss to the strikers/union in paying for the buses. Seems to me this would obviate the whole purpose of striking which is to withdraw labour as a last resort when negotiations have failed, to apply pressure to change policies, in this case forced Sundays.

I assume you're not in BALPA.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

deleted

 

[merlodlliw]

I can confirm that there was a Picket at Machynlleth, all morning and some of the afternoon.
Two ATCU members crossed, but then went home. One RMT member crossed.

Very few members of public / passengers, most of those that did appear were well-wishers and there was no trouble at all.

No trains departed (and only one on Sunday from a member not in ASLEF who was unable to 'chuck in' the Sunday as the required 10 days notice was not given).

Well wishers, no disrespect to you whatsoever ,that does surprise me,wonder who they were, no well-wishers here.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well wishers, no disrespect to you whatsoever ,that does surprise me,wonder who they were, no well-wishers here.

Bob

family members of drivers no doubt whose own employers are not offering a pay increase at all this year.

 

[TDK]

I never criticised any support you have had, just stating facts, that I have been told from numerous depots and drivers who are ASLEF members and also my friends, this solid evidence is codswallop, everyone knows guards got sold down the river by the DOO agreed by ASLEF so their members benefited while the guards either got made redundant or had to move, also common knowledge is the amounts paid out after ASLEF LOST the unfair dismissal case against brought against them by Shaun Brady and the costs involved, also the decreasing membership due to quite a few drivers going over to the RMT, ALSO ASLEF doing everything in their power to make sure Drivers RMT reps are not on LDC's etc. need I continue or are you going to deny all knowledge???

Hearsay and messroom godssip is not evidence, I not going against what you have said but do not take any notice unless evidence is provided, there must be a link on line to these effects, if not I personally can only put it down to messroom gossip, OK some may be true but unless evidence is provided it means nothing. Sorry to go on Anorthernguard and I apologise if I have posted anything you think is wrong but it is my opinion.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Hearsay and messroom godssip is not evidence, I not going against what you have said but do not take any notice unless evidence is provided, there must be a link on line to these effects, if not I personally can only put it down to messroom gossip, OK some may be true but unless evidence is provided it means nothing. Sorry to go on Anorthernguard and I apologise if I have posted anything you think is wrong but it is my opinion.

I have absolutely no problem with your opinion, that is the idea of forums, you treat people with respect, so no probs from me, personally I have seen some of the damage ASLEF have caused through some depots, that is not to say you haven't had the support etc provided by them, that wasn't my point BUT with the utmost respect, the DOO issue is known countrywide, regarding the Shaun Brady incident, not only did he win substantial damages, the legal costs alone almost bankrupted ASLEF, thats why the subs went up (and thats from 2 ASLEF reps), regarding ASLEF making things difficult for the RMT in certain depots I have seen it 1st hand but every depot is different.

 

[seagull]

family members of drivers no doubt whose own employers are not offering a pay increase at all this year.

Not when one of the 'well-wishers' was a car containing husband, wife and children - who asked whether any trains were running (if they were 'family of drivers' they would know).
They were quite surprised to learn that no trains were running, but when told accurately of the reason why, responded 'can't blame you, and good luck'.

If I was involved with an organisation such as SARPA I would want the passengers represented to be conveyed by competent, conscientious and professional drivers, and not drivers on the lowest rung of the ladder, fresh out of the training academy, who are only qualified to drive milk floats - so I am surprised at your lack of support for those drivers in your locality and therefore tacit approval of ATWs complete contempt for those who carry out such work.

Only a few weeks ago, virtually every Cambrian Line driver would have, as always, gone out of their way to make sure that trains were not cancelled and passengers delayed, because of the infrequent service - even if this meant, for example, driving an unheated cab, missing a Personal Needs Break, or extending a shift into overtime. Trouble is, passengers never got to see the full extent of just how much flexibility and co-operation went on to keep the trains running - but drivers wives and the roster clerks certainly did!
Sadly though, following the various comments by ATW Management and meddling MPs about qualifications, milk floats, Wales being cheaper, and greed ad nauseum, most if not all of this goodwill has been lost, for possibly quite a long time.

 

[1V53]

LOL! Thereby causing Arriva very little inconvenience (a service still runs AND they get compensation from the DfT) but causing a massive loss to the strikers/union in paying for the buses. Seems to me this would obviate the whole purpose of striking which is to withdraw labour as a last resort when negotiations have failed, to apply pressure to change policies, in this case forced Sundays.

I assume you're not in BALPA.

No he thinks he is funny. There's a lot of us with no sense of humour though

 

[merlodlliw]

family members of drivers no doubt whose own employers are not offering a pay increase at all this year.

You are probably correct, I can not see the average person in Mach feeling sorry for someone on a Drivers wages & turning down 12%.


Bob

 

[ANorthernGuard]

read the other thread 12% sounds g8, for what ATW wants to change not so g8!

 

[Gareth Marston]

read the other thread 12% sounds g8, for what ATW wants to change not so g8!

The point is in the Machynlleth area and for some distance the ATW Drivers are the high paid earning vastly above the average! The towns next largest employer the Center for Alternative Technology recently implemented an across the board pay cut for all employees. Theirs people there with degrees, masters, phds in green technology doing research earning less than £20K a year. Please get out the industry bubble - McNulty and the Govt are going to burst it anyway.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Do I feel sorry for people struggling? of course I do, However, when we start employment we sign a contract, if that contract is to be changed then compensation needs to be paid, if not regardless of who, what, where, when, yadda yadda then the troops get angry, Management dig their heels in so the staff dig their heels in even more, low morale = lower productivity, higher sick, higher turnover which in a Drivers case costs the company a hell of alot more in the long term, my Basic is £22,500 which is low compared to other TOC's am I jealous of the Drivers wage very much so but do I begrudge them any of it....No! they knew what they were getting when they signed their contract, they pay their union to negotiate, Sundays are the one day we can guarantee to have off, if the same happened at Northern without decent compensation you can guarantee the same result would happen. Both sides are bullying each other eventually one side will have to give, it will be interesting to see who!

 

[seagull]

The point is in the Machynlleth area and for some distance the ATW Drivers are the high paid earning vastly above the average! The towns next largest employer the Center for Alternative Technology recently implemented an across the board pay cut for all employees.

I've already tried to reply but the forum seems to have made my reply vanish. Anyway what I was trying to say is that:

As you are involved with SARPA (Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth Rail Passengers Association) then I would have thought you would want professional, conscientious and skilled drivers to convey your passengers you represent safely to their destination.
So it rather baffles me to find such a lack of support for those very workers - and instead a tacit approval almost of the type of derogatory and contemptuous statements (milk floats, greedy, etc.) that have been made by higher management who should know better.
If you had your way then no doubt Machynlleth and the surrounding area would have all its workers on minimum wage (can see that pleasing the doctors, solicitors and estate agents), but I very much doubt that would result in an improvement of the standard of train driving locally. Besides which, and this has been done to death, the drivers are not after a particularly huge pay rise at all, having accepted below RPI increases for several years (and did you know that when Arriva took over, all drivers at Machynlleth and Pwllheli had a pay *freeze* for two-three years while the south of Wales caught up with the previous Wales and Borders salary?). It is a matter of contract change.

As many drivers wives, and indeed the roster clerks will tell you, there has always and for a long time been an attitude on the Cambrian Lines of co-operation and willingness to do anything to 'keep the trains running' - including driving with no cab heat in winter, missing booked breaks, working longer hours than booked, and coming into work at 5 minutes' notice.
Unfortunately with the type of comments coming from those who are able to speak publicly (unlike train crew who must have sealed mouths as far as the media are concerned), the goodwill is rapidly disappearing - sadly for the passengers who travel regularly on the railway.

 

[Flamingo]

No he thinks he is funny. There's a lot of us with no sense of humour though

He's about as funny as a road accident.