Arriva Not Providing Alternative Transport

[embers25]

The arguments over the strike can go on but I'd like to know how they are allowed to get away with not replacing ANY of the cancelled services with buses. Even London Midland replace with buses during their "issues" when there is no alternative service. This is far worse as many areas only have Arriva Wales services and so will be completely cut off from rail with no rail service for miles around. Surely they should be forced to provide even a skeleton bus service however overcrowded it gets as 2 days is a long time. Tho I guess this is just the tip of the iceberg if Bob Crow and his ASLEF buddy gets their militant way.

 

[scotsman]

Tho I guess this is just the tip of the iceberg if Bob Crow and his ASLEF buddy gets their militant way.

Yes, because the RMT is mates with ASLEF, and together they just want to ruin everyone's journeys and line their pockets....

 

[Anvil1984]

Northern didn't put any bus replacements on (except the ones which were already planned for engineering works) when we had our strike in December.

At the end of the day its easy to blame Bob Crow and the Aslef management but at the end of the day its not those who choose to go on strike, its voted on by the members. I'm not going to go into the rights and wrongs of striking, passengers want to travel and staff do want to work (who in the right mind would want to lose money in these times) but something has irked them to this extent

 

[quarella]

Section H National Rail Conditions of Carriage

45. Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control include:
45. Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are not within a Train
Company’s control include:
(a) acts or threats of vandalism or terrorism;
(b) suicides or accidents involving trespassers;
(c) gas leaks or fires in lineside buildings not caused by a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company or any of their employees or agents;
(d) line closures at the request of the police or emergency services;
(e) exceptionally severe weather conditions;
(f) industrial action by a Train Company’s, or Rail Service Company’s, staff or agents
or by any other person;
(g) riots or civil commotion; and
(h) fire, mechanical or electrical failure or a defect (except where this is caused by a
Train Company or Rail Service Company or their employees or agents, or as a
result of the condition of a Train Company’s trains).

There are many incidents where alternative transport is provided even though the TOC is under no obligation so to do.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Section H National Rail Conditions of Carriage

45. Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control include:
45. Circumstances that are not within a Train Company’s control
For the purposes of Conditions 42 and 43, circumstances that are not within a Train
Company’s control include:
(a) acts or threats of vandalism or terrorism;
(b) suicides or accidents involving trespassers;
(c) gas leaks or fires in lineside buildings not caused by a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company or any of their employees or agents;
(d) line closures at the request of the police or emergency services;
(e) exceptionally severe weather conditions;
(f) industrial action by a Train Company’s, or Rail Service Company’s, staff or agents
or by any other person;
(g) riots or civil commotion; and
(h) fire, mechanical or electrical failure or a defect (except where this is caused by a
Train Company or Rail Service Company or their employees or agents, or as a
result of the condition of a Train Company’s trains).

There are many incidents where alternative transport is provided even though the TOC is under no obligation so to do.

it's a good way to get the passengers hating the staff who have striked, makes the TOC's look like the helpless victims, I can pretty much guarantee when staff strike they do not want to hurt their passengers, but the inept managment, but if the TOC's can make it out the other way it suits them

 

[313103]

Tho I guess this is just the tip of the iceberg if Bob Crow and his ASLEF buddy gets their militant way.

Like it and how ironic that Bob Crow and Aslef are mentioned in the same light. I think you will find there is as much love between Bob Crow and Keith Norman as there is between Maggie and Arthur Scargill. It is well known that Aslef hate the RMT at times more then the management, but they have there reasons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, because the RMT is mates with ASLEF, and together they just want to ruin everyone's journeys and line their pockets....

RMT mates with ASLEF! thats a new one on me. I think you will find Managing Directors are more wlecome at Arkwright Road then having the all grades RMT there.

 

[TDK]

The arguments over the strike can go on but I'd like to know how they are allowed to get away with not replacing ANY of the cancelled services with buses. Even London Midland replace with buses during their "issues" when there is no alternative service. This is far worse as many areas only have Arriva Wales services and so will be completely cut off from rail with no rail service for miles around. Surely they should be forced to provide even a skeleton bus service however overcrowded it gets as 2 days is a long time. Tho I guess this is just the tip of the iceberg if Bob Crow and his ASLEF buddy gets their militant way.

Bob Crow is nothing to do with ASLEF and if he was I would leave that union - it is well know that ASLEF and the RMT will hardly ever agree on anything.

Think about it - If ATW do not offer bus replacement surely this is going to make their staff even more disliked - Knowing ATW this is most likely the reason however this will not be down to anyone except the people at Cardiff who are calling the shots, they are not worried about the North of Wales you see (predominently ASLEF) however in South Wales there are a large amount of RMT drivers so they will have to work - this in turn will cause many problems as I would never cross a picket line be it ASLEF or RMT if the drivers are involved.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not providing alternative transport is common with most operators.

EMT never bother with the line between Grimsby and Newark for example. (unless you include accepting tickets on the Stagecoach number 3 bus as alternative transport - which goes nowhere near the station)
Most operators may provide a coach on thier most profitable routes and nothing on the rural routes.
When Northern Spirit had the strikes a bus was provided between Cleethorpes and Sheffield (using CT to get to Manchester) but Lincoln - Sheffield were advised to use CT via Doncaster and Cleethorpes - Barton got nothing!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

simple reasons why the 2 unions hate each other

1. the RMT covers quite a few different grades and tries its best to help its members

2. ASLEF are in it for themselves and due to its actions tends to seriously impede the actions of the RMT and the wellbeing of the RMT's membership.

3. ASLEF hate the drivers who have gone to the RMT, shame the reason most of the drivers who went over to the RMT did because of ASLEF putting up their subscriptions (as they almost went bankrupt!)

to be honest both are as bad as each other on a lot of things, if only the bosses of both unions realised alot more could be acheived if they worked together and not apart, the railway would be a better place for staff and passengers, but it will never happen

 

[Ivo]

Just for the record, what does ASLEF stand for? I *think* I know RMT, but if someone could confirm that as well it would be appreciated.

TIA

 

[class377man]

ASLEF = Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen.

RMT = (National Union of) Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers.

 

[Ivo]

Merci

I did have RMT right then, but I could never have guessed ASLEF.

 

[Tom B]

Sorry - but that's the case of EVERY union, is it not? They care not for anyone except their members.

 

[1V53]

simple reasons why the 2 unions hate each other

1. the RMT covers quite a few different grades and tries its best to help its members

2. ASLEF are in it for themselves and due to its actions tends to seriously impede the actions of the RMT and the wellbeing of the RMT's membership.

3. ASLEF hate the drivers who have gone to the RMT, shame the reason most of the drivers who went over to the RMT did because of ASLEF putting up their subscriptions (as they almost went bankrupt!)

to be honest both are as bad as each other on a lot of things, if only the bosses of both unions realised alot more could be acheived if they worked together and not apart, the railway would be a better place for staff and passengers, but it will never happen

Well said. Most staff wish there was one union too. From what I see the ASLEF and RMT reps get on very well and share views etc., it seems to be the high ups who don't get on.

 

[Clip]

Well said. Most staff wish there was one union too. From what I see the ASLEF and RMT reps get on very well and share views etc., it seems to be the high ups who don't get on.

Of course they wouldnt - some of them would be out of a job then wouldnt they

 

[tbtc]

ASLEF = Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen

Firemen as in "the guy shovelling coal into steam engines" rather than Fireman Sam?

But, seriously, what else are ATW meant to do? Arrange hundreds of replacement buses at short notice? Where are you going to find that number of spare vehicles/ drivers/ train them up etc?

The only way I can think of getting round something like this would be to insist that if Drivers are on strike then all non-drivers are still expected to come to work and do something (Admin work/ training/ NVQs etc) to try and avoid the need to take people away from the "coal face" to do such tasks during the rest of the year - does this happen already, or is the "never cross a picket line" attitude taken by those not officially on strike?

 

[ainsworth74]

Firemen as in "the guy shovelling coal into steam engines" rather than Fireman Sam?

Firemen as in coal shovelling ASLEF's pretty old (founded sometime in the 1880s me thinks) so back then there would still have been guys shovelling coal on the footplate. These days of course its just drivers.

 

[jopsuk]

Given the comments of Peter Leppard, Ops director of ATW, perhaps they could commandeer a fleet of milk floats?

 

[scotsman]

RMT mates with ASLEF! thats a new one on me. I think you will find Managing Directors are more wlecome at Arkwright Road then having the all grades RMT there.

Mate, I was being sarcastic - I know about the somewhat fractured relationship between the two. I'm on your side, I'd be an RMT member if I was paid for my rail work!

 

[krus_aragon]

ASLEF = Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen.

Interesting that ASLEF 'still' uses the term engineer for a driver.

 

[CarterUSM]

Interesting that ASLEF 'still' uses the term engineer for a driver.

They consider themselves a 'craft' union also....... Seriously though, i'm not fussed either way about it, the members should make the union anyway.

 

[313103]

Bob Crow is nothing to do with ASLEF and if he was I would leave that union - it is well know that ASLEF and the RMT will hardly ever agree on anything.

Likewise if i was a driver i would never join the craft society on the grounds that the leadership and in particular Keith Norman is weak. As i have said before he seems preoccupied with having a dig at RMT, so much so that one of my closest friends who works for DBS and hates Keith Norman is beginning to sound like him.

It is also truly amazing what i see in ASLEFs magazine from former members of RMT. I suppose its to do with they think all of a sudden now i am in aslef i have become politicised as to what only heaven or hell will be able to tell. I have seen many members of staff who have joined the railway got their driving job then all of a sudden they are the ldc rep or the h&s rep and in 2 cases the branch secretary of their respective aslef branches, yet when i needed help (when they were Guards in RMT) they were awol. So it must all be a power craze for them.

I think ASLEF would do well to realise that nearly 60% of their current membership were former RMT members, so they should not hold grudge, if anyone had a grudge it is the RMT who have lost these people.

At the end of the day it is a choice, you have chosen to be in ASLEF and i have chosen to be in RMT. You have chosen Keith Norman i have chosen Bob Crow. Each to their own as some might say.

 

[CarterUSM]

I actually thought Brady was good for ASLE&F, don't know much about Norman , i think he writes better than he speaks though.

 

[merlodlliw]

The arguments over the strike can go on but I'd like to know how they are allowed to get away with not replacing ANY of the cancelled services with buses. Even London Midland replace with buses during their "issues" when there is no alternative service. This is far worse as many areas only have Arriva Wales services and so will be completely cut off from rail with no rail service for miles around. Surely they should be forced to provide even a skeleton bus service however overcrowded it gets as 2 days is a long time. Tho I guess this is just the tip of the iceberg if Bob Crow and his ASLEF buddy gets their militant way.

Good morning embers.

I have sent an e mail to the leader of Wrexham County Council, copy is here.
it refers to your thread starter.

Dear (left out)

With no ATW trains running today(Sunday or Monday) and only one VT service in & out of Wrexham on Monday, I am sure you are aware that ATW have not replaced any service with buses, which is the usual situation with engineering. I do not wish to comment on the strike which is between ATW & ASLEF, although I have my own opinion as a passenger which prevents me using the train on both days .

I am rather concerned ATW have not replaced the three trains out of Wrexham & return from Bidston by replacement bus , which I understand Wrexham County Borough Council subsidises for the benefit of Wrexham business and ratepayers. These trains are the two pre noon & one late night service, The franchise only commits ATW to run two afternoon and one evening service.

I draw this matter to your attention as a resident, and hope the subsidy for the three trains paid to ATW is refunded to the Council, I fully understand ATW not providing all franchise services with replacement buses, but services paid for by the Council on behalf of ratepayers out of franchise should be catered for.

I also understand very many services in Wales especially on Sunday are also paid for by means of subsidy by County Borough & City Councils, otherwise they would not run.


Bob ends

 

[rodders133]

I`m not 100% sure about this time round, but in the past, ATW have put replacement buses on where possible on a Sunday. They dont do it for other days of the week where there is industrial action, because basically, they dont have to. Services cancelled on Sundays due to lack of drivers is not classed as industrial action.
I`m pretty sure the RMT drivers will not cross the picket line, as when there was a strike recently by the RMT, the Aslef drivers did not cross their picket line.

As for other grades not crossing the picket line, it wouldnt and shouldnt happen. Most of the guards and other staff will turn up to work, sit around for a few hours then go home. The whole point of a strike is to hit the company where it hurts. If guards and other staff did not cross the picket line, it is doing the company a favour as they dont have to pay them, and with the guards also being in dispute with ATW, there is no love lost at the moment.
Staff not involved in the strike have been urged to take an annual leave day on the strike date ( seriously, who thinks this stuff up and puts their name to it..... its so laughable ) and staff who have carried over annual leave from last year are being FORCED to take annual leave on the strike date. Im not sure if and how this is even legal.

 

[Bellwater]

The arguments over the strike can go on but I'd like to know how they are allowed to get away with not replacing ANY of the cancelled services with buses. Even London Midland replace with buses during their "issues" when there is no alternative service. This is far worse as many areas only have Arriva Wales services and so will be completely cut off from rail with no rail service for miles around.

That explains why ATWalex101 is posting his thoughts on here as he can't go anywhere...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm not 100% sure about this time round, but in the past, ATW have put replacement buses on where possible on a Sunday. They dont do it for other days of the week where there is industrial action, because basically, they dont have to. Services cancelled on Sundays due to lack of drivers is not classed as industrial action.
I'm pretty sure the RMT drivers will not cross the picket line, as when there was a strike recently by the RMT, the Aslef drivers did not cross their picket line.

As for other grades not crossing the picket line, it wouldnt and shouldnt happen. Most of the guards and other staff will turn up to work, sit around for a few hours then go home. The whole point of a strike is to hit the company where it hurts. If guards and other staff did not cross the picket line, it is doing the company a favour as they dont have to pay them, and with the guards also being in dispute with ATW, there is no love lost at the moment.
Staff not involved in the strike have been urged to take an annual leave day on the strike date ( seriously, who thinks this stuff up and puts their name to it..... its so laughable ) and staff who have carried over annual leave from last year are being FORCED to take annual leave on the strike date. Im not sure if and how this is even legal.

And the management wonder why staff relations are so bad?

 

[TDK]

simple reasons why the 2 unions hate each other

1. the RMT covers quite a few different grades and tries its best to help its members

2. ASLEF are in it for themselves and due to its actions tends to seriously impede the actions of the RMT and the wellbeing of the RMT's membership.

3. ASLEF hate the drivers who have gone to the RMT, shame the reason most of the drivers who went over to the RMT did because of ASLEF putting up their subscriptions (as they almost went bankrupt!)

to be honest both are as bad as each other on a lot of things, if only the bosses of both unions realised alot more could be acheived if they worked together and not apart, the railway would be a better place for staff and passengers, but it will never happen

Obviously you are member of the RMT, ASLEF over the years has always been there for the drivers and I have always had a great response to them on many occasions both as a manager an ASLEF rep and a driver - was it not the RMT who originally called a strike when the rugby match was on in Cardiff and due to very poor publicity and also not enough driver members pulled out of the strike as ATW would have still run a 80% service? 6 years ago RMT tried their utmost to poach drivers from the ASLEF union with posters and ther reps offering their services at cheaper monthly subs rates, after looking in to this and negociating with the drivers it was discovered that the reps for the RMT were not at all interested in the drivers because as you know there has always been an US & THem scenario between Guards and drivers when it has come to the saleries and working conditions - Where is your source for:

1. ASLEF hate the drivers who have gone to the RMT
2. ASLEF are in it for themselves and due to its actions tends to seriously impede the actions of the RMT and the wellbeing of the RMT's membership
3. ASLEF putting up their subscriptions (as they almost went bankrupt!)


It is easy to harp on about another union and lay down your own views but without evidence on damning accusations like the 3 above I relly think you should stay with the facts.

For your information ASLEF members were not going to cross the picket line if the RMT were going out earlier in the year and this is fact as I have spoken to many ASLEF members regarding the picket line breaching that RMT apparently are partaking in over the next couple of days be it, drivers, guards, station staff or other grades.

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm not 100% sure about this time round, but in the past, ATW have put replacement buses on where possible on a Sunday.

according to natrail, only one bus service ran today,it was the return from Fishguard early morning due to the bus already there,so it may as well carry passengers back to CDF. Tough for the afternoon boat,

Another interesting fact shown up, Gwynedd County Council pay for the one Sunday train Pwlhelli to Mach & return,out of franchise yet no bus. Also Conwy & Gwynedd County
Councils pay ATW to run three bus services Llandudno to Blaenau on Sundays, as these are buses not trains, why are the buses stopped today,

Bob

 

[46100ROYALSCOT]

Pardon my ignorance and please feel free to correct me. I have not read all the treads related to this strike by Arriva but the fact there are no bus replacements may be due to Arriva running most of the buses in the area!!!! Is this not a possibility??