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Arriva - license revocation?

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G0ORC

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Is this the Derby Telegraph going over the top in an attempt to fill column inches or is there something in it?

http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/ARR...ence-revoked/story-23182527-detail/story.html

Derby Telegraph said:
ARRIVA: Bus company could have its operator's licence revoked

BUS company Arriva Midlands faces having its operator’s licence revoked over allegations it failed to run some registered services.

A public inquiry to consider the evidence and determine any sanctions against the firm will begin on October 23 in Golborne, near Warrington.
 
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Y961 XBU

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I think whats been said is over the top however if whats being said is true then i hope they are dealt with one way or another (that would affect the Company and not the passengers if possible)
 

mbonwick

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Called to a PI over failure to operate registered services it seems.

In which case, revokation is an option, but the most severe punishment available.
 

bb21

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Just that a public enquiry is being held as they allegedly did not run some of the registered services.

They really need to watch it as Ms Bell is not one to be messed with. They have already been in trouble with her before.

Unless the number of journeys not operated is huge, I can't see revocation realistically as that would have severe ramifications for the city's bus services. She could fine them, or do what she did last time and order some journeys to be operated free of charge.
 

WatcherZero

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Whys the Office of Traffic Commissioner for the whole of the North West based in a small Wigan town with poor public transport links?

Actually never mind, just realised its right off the M6, though bit ironic the directions state 'There are no direct bus routes to the office'.
 
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Titfield

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The choices open to the TC are:
revocation: the licence is revoked
suspension: the licence is suspended for a fixed period of time
curtailment: the number of vehicles allowed to be operated on the licence is reduced for a period of time.

The TC could also state that the licence holder can not apply for an increase to the authorisation (number of vehicles) for a period of time or register new routes.

A severe fine is the most likely outcome as anything else can penalise the travelling public which is not the intention.

She could of course call the operators nominated TM to the public inquiry and suspend him / her for a period of time or find that he has lost his repute and can no longer act as the TM.
 

radamfi

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There's no great incentive for operators to improve, unless the TC actually revokes the licence of a big company. First have had reductions in licensed vehicles, but did that lead to significant improvements?

It would seem that the TC will only revoke a licence in the most extreme of cases and only in the case of small tinpot companies which would not be a great loss to the travelling public. In the case of UK North of Manchester, someone had to die before proper action was taken.

Arriva offer poor services in many places yet don't get punished. So Derby must be really bad if if has got this far.
 

Titfield

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I am not sure to be honest but it would be quite an unusual step as it would penalise the passengers who use that route.

If the route was tendered or supported the local authority could cancel the tender and seek a new operator but this again seems to impact the passengers.
 

radamfi

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I am not sure to be honest but it would be quite an unusual step as it would penalise the passengers who use that route.

If the route was tendered or supported the local authority could cancel the tender and seek a new operator but this again seems to impact the passengers.

But if you just apply modest sanctions that don't really make any difference, nothing will change. There is no other way of 'sacking' an operator, unless you impose a QC. For example, Metrobus in Crawley is often considered to be an exceptional operator, but they wouldn't even be there if Arriva didn't decide to pull out of the area completely. Arriva could have just hung on with worsening and worsening operations that just about keep their head above water. Crawley might now be like Derby is today.

It would undoubtedly be better for Derby if Arriva deregistered their whole network with Trent Barton replacing them. In theory, Trent Barton could compete against the whole Arriva Derby network, which is what Nicholas Ridley thought would happen if the incumbent was weak, but clearly that doesn't happen in today's risk averse bus industry.

Poor performing operators should be forced to deregister with 56 days notice if they do not improve sufficiently within a certain amount of time, allowing other operators to register commercial services, or for the local authority to issue replacement tenders as appropriate.
 

Busaholic

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I am not sure to be honest but it would be quite an unusual step as it would penalise the passengers who use that route.

If the route was tendered or supported the local authority could cancel the tender and seek a new operator but this again seems to impact the passengers.

A different situation, and, being in London, no TC involved, but when TfL accepted a tender for route 60 back in the late 1990s from an operator which failed to deliver, most journeys failed to operate for weeks on end while all other routes in the Croydon area operated normally, because they were contracted out to different companies. It was a disgrace that things were allowed to continue for so long and, directly or indirectly, led to the setting-up of East Thames Buses owned and operated by TfL themselves which could step into such situations.

Think it's unlikely the TC here would order Arriva off a particular route, even if she had such powers, which I'm not 100% sure she does anyway.
 

47820

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Think it's unlikely the TC here would order Arriva off a particular route, even if she had such powers, which I'm not 100% sure she does anyway.

Yes she can, if one route is significantly worse than others. Happened to First in Bath several years ago following direct (and illegal) action against Faresaver. First were banned from the route for a period. Except the action was against the First company that held the registration for that route. So all they did was register with a different First operation and change the legals/discs on a few Bath buses!
 

edwin_m

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If the offence committed is failure to run some of its services, how does restricting an operator's fleet size help the passengers affected?
 

swifty

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Yes she can, if one route is significantly worse than others. Happened to First in Bath several years ago following direct (and illegal) action against Faresaver. First were banned from the route for a period. Except the action was against the First company that held the registration for that route. So all they did was register with a different First operation and change the legals/discs on a few Bath buses!

It was around 2001 IIRC and saw Badgerline banned from operating the X32 service on the Bath to Chippenham corridor after intense competition. However the same drivers and buses were used on the route although they had transferred over to the Wessex Coaches operation that was running the X32, all legal but it made a mockery of the verdict. 6 months later and it all went back over to Badgerline!
 

Robertj21a

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Wow, that was a bit draconian! Must have been a warning shot across Arriva Derby's bows.

Not really. Most regular passengers still had to buy their weekly tickets etc to get to work and back home. However, the taxi drivers were fuming.
 

Ginga

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Arriva Derby are not the worst, Veolia Rotherham were only running 65% of their scheduled services towards the end , :and had to "borrow " buses off Premiere travel .
 

overthewater

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It would undoubtedly be better for Derby if Arriva deregistered their whole network with Trent Barton replacing them. In theory, Trent Barton could compete against the whole Arriva Derby network, which is what Nicholas Ridley thought would happen if the incumbent was weak, but clearly that doesn't happen in today's risk averse bus industry.


It does still happen, both Stagecoach and Lothian buses have started competing service around the Edinburgh area against First.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The idea that big firms don't get sufficiently punished (or seem to attract that much attention) isn't correct. In terms of maintenance, First had issues in Bristol that led to a new MD, fleet investment and improved systems that massively improved their record. Similarly, Stagecoach in Mansfield also got caught by the TC's about 10 years ago and had a license cut.

Big firms take it very seriously and, as a transport manager, CPC and O license holder myself in the past, I can tell you that no manager wants to get their business in front of the TC. Not least because any manager may end up getting dismissed, as happened with the Stagecoach example, and also lose your good repute. One of my old bosses used to get his managers (of which I was one) to actually go and "mark each others' homework" by doing an annual check that we were legally compliant, and that was in addition to the official internal checks within the company. I've also had the "man from the ministry" visit and it isn't a nice experience.

Also, large firms invest a lot of time and money in training their staff, investing in technology and their fleets. Small firms just don't have that infrastructure. When they're very small, they can exercise a level of control but when they grow to having 15+ vehicles and outbases, that's when small businesses can overeach themselves by not being able to control their maintenance and legal compliance effectively.

And, of course, you always have the problems of rogue individuals (as in any trade) who are either incompetent and downright dishonest. I'd point out that the TCs are very short of staff from budgetary constraints so they have to be selective and only go for particular cases, either the worst or the repeat offenders (of which Arriva would seem to fall into the second).

TC's and the OFT used to work together in respect of individual routes such as Badgerline and Northumbria's issues. Where compliance was the issue, it's the TC. Where it was predatory behaviour, it was the OFT then CC.
 

northwichcat

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It was great while it lasted, I had quite a few free journeys from the rail station into town!

It also resulted in the public being more aware of the role of the Traffic Commissioner meaning the TC is more likely to get reports from the public about under performing operators.
 

Deerfold

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But if you just apply modest sanctions that don't really make any difference, nothing will change. There is no other way of 'sacking' an operator, unless you impose a QC. For example, Metrobus in Crawley is often considered to be an exceptional operator, but they wouldn't even be there if Arriva didn't decide to pull out of the area completely. Arriva could have just hung on with worsening and worsening operations that just about keep their head above water. Crawley might now be like Derby is today.

It would undoubtedly be better for Derby if Arriva deregistered their whole network with Trent Barton replacing them. In theory, Trent Barton could compete against the whole Arriva Derby network, which is what Nicholas Ridley thought would happen if the incumbent was weak, but clearly that doesn't happen in today's risk averse bus industry.

Poor performing operators should be forced to deregister with 56 days notice if they do not improve sufficiently within a certain amount of time, allowing other operators to register commercial services, or for the local authority to issue replacement tenders as appropriate.

Or you could get what happened in Skipton - Pennine gave notice and deregistered all its routes, the council has very limited resources and is trying to cut its public transport spending so decided to run "replacement" services itself - typically 3 times a day on services which were hourly with Pennine. Only 2 routes now have a service suitable for a 9-5 worker in Skipton, one of which had a period of a couple of months without any.

I'm guessing most workers who used the buses now have alternative arrangements and wouldn't swap back now even if someone else started up.

I doubt Trent Barton would be interested in most of Arriva Derby's network - they've cut out many of the shorter routes from their own network.
 

CatfordCat

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In theory, yes, a traffic commissioner can reduce the number of vehicles authorised on an o-licence, or in extreme cases, revoke on o-licence completely for poor operation.

In practice, I don't think any large operator has had this done to an extent that would actually cause more than a relatively minor inconvenience.

I seem to recall that when First around Bristol (I can't remember which actual o-licence it was) was at its low point about 10 years ago, the traffic commissioner said something to the effect that if he took serious action then it would have too much of an impact on the travelling public.

Smaller operators don't get the same consideration from the TC's.

In the free market theory behind deregulation, any operator providing a poor service would lose passengers to their many competitors. In practice - hmm.
 

radamfi

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I doubt Trent Barton would be interested in most of Arriva Derby's network - they've cut out many of the shorter routes from their own network.

If not Trent Barton then surely someone else could make Derby work reasonably well? It is a sizable city and not the most affluent one, so it should really be good bus territory. It must surely be at least as good bus territory as rich southern towns such as Horsham or Reigate/Redhill, which are ex-Arriva areas that Metrobus seem to be doing OK in.

I guess nothing should surprise me about the UK bus industry but I find the concepts

(a) that because the TC is under-resourced we should let operators do as they wish

and

(b) any drastic action taken by the TC is bound to be against the public interest no matter how bad the operator is

quite offensive.

It is like saying we should not have a police force and we should let criminals do whatever they want, because if we intervene in their 'activities', that would not be ethical.

How does this help the industry's argument against QCs? They claim they don't need political interference and can do things well without subsidy. So if they can't even run buses well in a place like Derby, then they should do the honourable thing and give someone else a go.

We seem to be helpless against operators like Arriva Derby. Even if the Government wanted to intervene and was prepared to pay, that isn't even allowed as direct state funding for operators is not permitted under deregulation. And no, I wouldn't agree to increased BSOG for badly run operators, as that would be rewarding failure, and encourage wasteful competition if increased BSOG was done across the board.
 
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Robertj21a

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In my experience there's nothing really wrong at Arriva Derby. Does anyone have some hard facts as to what it is they're supposed to have done - I thought it was down to missing some trips ?

Clearly, after their previous problem, they need to get a better grip on the management of certain aspects of their operation but, otherwise, they seem to run a reasonably efficient operation. Despite what others might believe, Trent (Wellglade) is largely based on marketing hype, but has many faults too.

Is Derby any worse than, say, First Potteries or Essex ?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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If not Trent Barton then surely someone else could make Derby work reasonably well? It is a sizable city and not the most affluent one, so it should really be good bus territory. It must surely be at least as good bus territory as rich southern towns such as Horsham or Reigate/Redhill, which are ex-Arriva areas that Metrobus seem to be doing OK in.

I guess nothing should surprise me about the UK bus industry but I find the concepts

(a) that because the TC is under-resourced we should let operators do as they wish

and

(b) any drastic action taken by the TC is bound to be against the public interest no matter how bad the operator is

quite offensive.

It is like saying we should not have a police force and we should let criminals do whatever they want, because if we intervene in their 'activities', that would not be ethical.

How does this help the industry's argument against QCs? They claim they don't need political interference and can do things well without subsidy. So if they can't even run buses well in a place like Derby, then they should do the honourable thing and give someone else a go.

We seem to be helpless against operators like Arriva Derby. Even if the Government wanted to intervene and was prepared to pay, that isn't even allowed as direct state funding for operators is not permitted under deregulation. And no, I wouldn't agree to increased BSOG for badly run operators, as that would be rewarding failure, and encourage wasteful competition if increased BSOG was done across the board.

You do come out with some stuff......

It is all about proportionality. To use your line about crime, you could stop shoplifting by making it mandatory for every shop to search every person. That would stop crime and the savings could be passed on to the public in lower prices. It would need massive investment in police and PCSOs. We'd just have be searched several times a day. It would solve the problem.

Of course, that's ludicrous.

Same with expecting each and every transgression to be ruthlessly investigated, and that the outcome should be wholesale change. The costs would be massive and the potential disruption far worse than the problems you're attempting to solve.

TCs understand that there are areas that they focus on more with their resources but that a blanket draconian view can be counter productive in terms of impact on the travelling public causing more harm than good. They recognise that.
 
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