Statto
Established Member
From Waltham Cross to Enfield the 310 went via Enfield Highway & Ponders End, think the difference between the 310 & 311 was different routes around Hoddesdon & Broxbourne
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Arriva Buses (including Greenline)
- Thread starter Simon75
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From Waltham Cross to Enfield the 310 went via Enfield Highway & Ponders End, think the difference between the 310 & 311 was different routes around Hoddesdon & Broxbourne
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RailUK Forums
People also said First were determined to leave Manchester and then they went and bid and won a bee network contract, so anything could happen. It could be Arriva running down the Wilmslow Road in 2025
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Think that response was in reply to your comment that Arriva
Arriva won't be selling it to anyone because it will become part of the Bee Network. They may, depending on franchising outcomes, retain the operations or lose them (and gain something else). However, a conventional sale to another operator just isn't gonna happen.
I don't think they will be retaining the Wythenshawe operations, as Arriva have already stated that it has no interest in bidding for TfGM Bee Network contracts, and indeed never bided for Bolton hence why they have no Bee Network work here either. In effect all they will operate in Greater Manchester is cross boundary work from St Helens and Southport Garages. That will bring to an end Arriva North West, which as is said above is controlled by Arriva Cymru at the moment. It has also been suggested in a recent issue of Buses Magazine, that they nearly lost several garages in North Wales, but intervention from the Welsh Government had stopped the closures there. So what will be left presumably eventually might just be Arriva Merseyside, then if that is under franchise regime which seems extremely likely, and they decided not to bid or lost everything, then the whole North West & Wales operation might be history.
Arriva Cymru only operates on the North Wales coast along with Wrexham and Mold as well as Chester, having abandoned anything south of Snowdonia (Yr Wyddfa).
Arriva Cymru is needed because the small time outfits could not provide the level of service needed in the more urban parts of N.Wales. The only serious rival was GHA which was considered a candidate for takeover until they went belly up.
Arriva NW will need to remain a block in Merseyside, Halton and West Lancs along with cross boundary routes to Wigan and Warrington. Please no more MBOs after Yellow Buses in Bournemouth or the awful Glenvale they go belly up too easily. Only a local authority take over or Go Ahead will do. Big areas need big operators!
Arriva Cymru is needed because the small time outfits could not provide the level of service needed in the more urban parts of N.Wales. The only serious rival was GHA which was considered a candidate for takeover until they went belly up.
Arriva NW will need to remain a block in Merseyside, Halton and West Lancs along with cross boundary routes to Wigan and Warrington. Please no more MBOs after Yellow Buses in Bournemouth or the awful Glenvale they go belly up too easily. Only a local authority take over or Go Ahead will do. Big areas need big operators!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
That might be the case for Rhyl and the Llandudno/Conwy area but once you get to Bangor, Arriva is now a pale shadow of what it once was.
Reduction of bus every hour to Holyhead is coming up soon, every 45 mins to Amlwch, one bus running on town service, two buses running to Beaumaris, and two shuttling every 30 mins to Bethesda. It's all pretty thin now - the 5 being the route that really underpins it.
ps Glenvale didn't go belly up - they sold out to Stagecoach though it wasn't looking good by then
I forgot to mention Anglesey (Ynys Mon), although Arriva's presence there is much weaker than previously. Too much of Wales' bus industry is in the hands of small timers who often wish to retire. In Pembrokeshire the private sector has given up. Fragmentation is not the way forward, and perhaps a new incarnation of Cymru Cenedlaethol, or National Welsh may have to arise.
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Blindtraveler
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I quite like that Wales buses are dominated by smaller firms, gives you the sense of uniqueness but I can understand it provides a headache if they decide to give up and shut up shop
I guess the problems in North Wales, is that its a vastly rural area, apart from Bangor, Wexham, Mold and the seaside resorts along the coast, so its not an easy area to make money from, vastly rural area's are often dominated by car owners, which makes it difficult, probably the most successful rural routes would be those reliant on School and College Traffic, but them again that's often subsidised work. Really the best base Arriva have is probably Rhyl and Llandudno, plus the Wrexham to Chester service, apart from that a lot of other routes given the location wouldn't return the returns that big Groups ask for these days. Maybe the answer in Wales might be to go for a heavily tax funded system, like the Bee Network in Greater Manchester.
Arriva though need probably to concentrate currently on its Merseyside Network if they want to avoid that becoming history, as there is no doubt that the Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram, has every intention of going down the franchise route, therefore it needs to ensure it puts in competitive bids, as lets not forget its not just drivers transferring to other employers in the industry, but also managers becoming redundant if they get franchising wrong.
Stagecoach could and will be waiting in the wings to take significant chunks on Merseyside they already have depots at Gillmoss and Rock Ferry, so have experience in Merseyside, GoAhead would be waiting also in the wings as well as possible operators of TfL Tenders.
Arriva though need probably to concentrate currently on its Merseyside Network if they want to avoid that becoming history, as there is no doubt that the Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram, has every intention of going down the franchise route, therefore it needs to ensure it puts in competitive bids, as lets not forget its not just drivers transferring to other employers in the industry, but also managers becoming redundant if they get franchising wrong.
Stagecoach could and will be waiting in the wings to take significant chunks on Merseyside they already have depots at Gillmoss and Rock Ferry, so have experience in Merseyside, GoAhead would be waiting also in the wings as well as possible operators of TfL Tenders.
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And of course if one small firm goes bust, there isn't always another one locally who's able to take on the work (and even if there is, they might say no).
Man of Kent
Member
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Well National Welsh didn't end well, did it? The only ex-NBC company to go bust in fact.
markymark2000
On Moderation
On the plus side, it does massively simplify the group of services. One of the things that will put people off is how confusing the network is. I don't think that the reductions should be as big as they are but I think it is what they needed to do to close Holyhead depot and still run everything reliably.
Surprised that the 62 doesn't do better unless part of the reason why that doesn't do as well is because Arriva has made it lower quality.
To be fair, when you look at the geography of Bangor, there isn't really much potential for any town buses. The interurban routes seem to do quite well at serving the areas of the city.
Bangor isn't helped though with the contracts that are being offered and I think because of the amount of independents, contracts are quite competitive and Arriva really struggle to attract a lot of drivers so even if they won contracts, they would struggle to get drivers for it. For example, Snowdon Sherpa routes went out as one big contract for about 10-12 buses. Bearing in mind one firm already operated much of the routes, either they won it or Arriva had a huge undertaking to get enough drivers and buses. Contracts on Anglesey Arriva would struggle a lot with as well as they are up against dodgy independents there who can bid much cheaper. Goodsir and OR Jones not known for their quality bus operations (not sure if this is the thread to share my experiences though). Gwynfor opened up a depot in Llangefni and Dilwyns has had the 42 contract at some point, happily running it with all of the dead mileage. Arriva doesn't really stand a chance to win contracts to help boost the depots profitability.
GusB
Established Member
Let's not go too off-topic here. The subject of the thread is Arriva; if anyone wishes to propose any changes to the way things work in Wales, feel free to start a new thread.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I don't know about that - the 62 doesn't really go through that many places of size (except Menai Bridge)
I wasn't referring to more town services, more that the Maesgirchen service is now only half hourly when it was every 15 mins a few years ago.
Similar reductions to Arriva services are also noticeable such as the Bethesda services
Perhaps a reflection on their costing approach. Stagecoach are much more bullish about tendering, esp in recent months, in various geographies
In Wales, I went on the Anglesey 62 in the summer and it is a reasonably busy route, passengers come and go including Red Wharf Bay and Benllech as well as Amlwch and Menai Bridge.
Given Arriva's lack of enthusiasm for anything at the moment I can see a real possibility of them throwing in the towel in North Wales, or just keeping a handful of decent routes (eg 1 to Wrexham, perhaps 4 to Mold, 12 Llandudno to Rhyl, 5 Llandudno to Caernarfon). There's nothing that says they have to keep going here if they can't see a profit being made in due course. And the Welsh government seem very unsupportive at the moment - maybe they need a huge kick like Arriva pulling out to start funding local bus services properly.
A second item - from the Oxford Tube thread there was this link:
https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/london-service-permit-consultations
Scrolling down the document, there is a variation to Arriva Kent Thameside (ie Hertfordshire!) route 508. It says:
Arriva Kent Thameside Ltd has applied to TfL to re-number route 508 as route 328, due to a funding issue within the Hertfordshire County Council. No changes to the overall frequency and routeing within the London Greater Boundary.
And it refers to the route going from Mount Vernon to Abbots Langley.
Well it does go to Mount Vernon and there is no big change here, but currently it goes from Watford on through Kings Langley (old 301/302 route for those with long memories) to Hemel every 30 minutes. The proposed timetable shows half the journeys stopping in Watford, the other half running via Leavesden to Abbots Langley, currently I think a mix of the 9 (hourly to Leavesden) and the 10 (half hourly to Abbots Langley). So what is going on? Nothing on Hertfordshire's website - just positive changes to the 351 and 383/4. Looks a bit like toys being thrown out of a pram...
Given Arriva's lack of enthusiasm for anything at the moment I can see a real possibility of them throwing in the towel in North Wales, or just keeping a handful of decent routes (eg 1 to Wrexham, perhaps 4 to Mold, 12 Llandudno to Rhyl, 5 Llandudno to Caernarfon). There's nothing that says they have to keep going here if they can't see a profit being made in due course. And the Welsh government seem very unsupportive at the moment - maybe they need a huge kick like Arriva pulling out to start funding local bus services properly.
A second item - from the Oxford Tube thread there was this link:
https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/london-service-permit-consultations
Scrolling down the document, there is a variation to Arriva Kent Thameside (ie Hertfordshire!) route 508. It says:
Arriva Kent Thameside Ltd has applied to TfL to re-number route 508 as route 328, due to a funding issue within the Hertfordshire County Council. No changes to the overall frequency and routeing within the London Greater Boundary.
And it refers to the route going from Mount Vernon to Abbots Langley.
Well it does go to Mount Vernon and there is no big change here, but currently it goes from Watford on through Kings Langley (old 301/302 route for those with long memories) to Hemel every 30 minutes. The proposed timetable shows half the journeys stopping in Watford, the other half running via Leavesden to Abbots Langley, currently I think a mix of the 9 (hourly to Leavesden) and the 10 (half hourly to Abbots Langley). So what is going on? Nothing on Hertfordshire's website - just positive changes to the 351 and 383/4. Looks a bit like toys being thrown out of a pram...
plebb11
On Moderation
There are a lot of changes happening in the Hemel Hempstead and Watford areas starting in November (including the new route 328 mentioned above)
Summary of changes here;
www.intalink.org.uk
Summary of changes here;
November 2023
This is a summary of the forthcoming changes to local bus services in Hertfordshire in November 2023.
www.intalink.org.uk
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
On a good day, you'll have a few more with Red Wharf Bay but on a day like today....
Not wishing to predict depot closures and the like. However, it is clear that aside from Wrexham and Rhyl/Llandudno, the rest of the remaining territory is fairly sparsely served by Arriva with few strong services.
Without wishing to retread old paths, I am fairly despondent about the ability of Arriva to have the ambition and entrepreneurial flair to escape its malaise.
I've seen it posted on the WM Bus Photos forum that First Group have purchased Tamworth depot, I'm guessing it's just bus spotter story time again, but has anyone else heard anything about it?
The Arriva sign was removed from the depot a couple of months ago and a few drivers thought at the time Diamond were interest, so that could be where the rumours are coming from.
Link to thread
The Arriva sign was removed from the depot a couple of months ago and a few drivers thought at the time Diamond were interest, so that could be where the rumours are coming from.
Link to thread
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True, but with Moelfre and Benllech there is custom for the 62. It always used to be half hourly until the bridge problems made it less frequent (and also during Covid).
It appears that the new timetables in High Wycombe are not working. There would seem to be a shortage of vehicles, possibly a shortage of drivers and certainly the timetables are not workable in view of the horrific traffic congestion that plagues the area. Last week was especially bad for traffic with major road works in Marlow and Henley causing long delays (up to an hour in Henley).
This week it seems to be more vehicles. I was looking at the situation on Tuesday lunchtime and how many buses were operating the various groups of services:
2/12 – should be 7 boards to provide a x15 service – 4 operating
3 – should be 2 boards to provide a x15 service – 1 operating
4 – 1 board to provide hourly service – 1 operating
5/6/7 – should be 5 boards to provide hourly service on each route – 4 operating, the fifth started at 13.40 but another stopped at Maidenhead at 14.22, so no departures from Maidenhead at 12.25 or 14.25 (should be hourly)
10/13 – should be 4 boards to provide x20 service – 3 operating
11/800/850 – should be 9 boards to provide x30 service – 7 operating, so no departures from Wycombe to Reading at 11.30 or 13.30.
Overall 20 boards out of 28 operating. There are 28 boards between the peaks, I am not sure if there is one more in the peaks or not, possibly not, the routes are all beautifully linked together but only if they aren’t delayed.
The allocation is 34 buses at present:
Streetlites 2325-2327
VDL SB180/MCV 2790
Versas 2951-2958, 2979, 2982
Citaros 3007-3010, 3012-3015, 3020, 3025, 3027, 3029
Deckers 4210-4212, 4749, 5457-5460
On Tuesday there were 8 buses off the road all day (one came out in the evening):
2953, 2954, 2957, 2979, 3007, 3029, 4210, 5458
Another 5 buses stopped before lunchtime and didn’t reappear:
2326 at High Wycombe at 09.25 (hasn’t been out since)
3010 at Bourne End at 08.00
3013 at Reading at 08.26
3027 at Reading at 10.45
5460 at High Wycombe at 10.18
That’s 13 buses off the road at lunchtime, leaving 21. But 2955 didn’t do anything between 10.12 and 13.58, possibly staff shortage, hence just 20 boards operating out of 28 at lunchtime. Other days do not appear to have been so bad, but there are 6 buses not out today and one board on the 2/12 is not operating. I don’t know if Wycombe have an engineering problem or Tuesday was just unfortunate.
Then there is the sheer impossibility of meeting the timetables. Two examples.
The 850 from Reading to High Wycombe at 07.00 carries masses of schoolchildren from Henley to Marlow. I counted 52 waiting for it at Henley on Monday. It is due to arrive in Wycombe at 08.35, actual arrivals: Monday 09.03, Tuesday 08.53, Wednesday 09.16, Thursday (today) 09.08. It looks like it is supposed to run empty to Penn to form the 09.00 service 11 back to Wycombe. No chance! Some days it runs over part of the route very late, today it hasn’t run at all.
The 11 from Penn to High Wycombe clearly takes schoolchildren from Hazlemere towards Wycombe. It should arrive in Wycombe at 15.25. Actual arrivals: Monday 16.02, Tuesday 15.41, Wednesday 15.58. This vehicle should then take up the 800 service to Reading at 15.30 which takes a lot of the schoolchildren mentioned earlier from Marlow to Henley. On Tuesday this left Wycombe at 15.49, on Monday and Wednesday it didn’t run at all! On Wednesday it run light to Henley to pick up service, taking college students back from Henley to Reading, but missed the huge Marlow demand. Monday nothing – so no departure at all from Reading between 16.45 and 18.07.
I guess the detailed timetables were all put together by a computer and controlled miles from Wycombe. While clever, there is absolutely no resilience anywhere in the times, so any congestion and they don’t work. Combined with providing only half a service on some routes some of the time, more people will be driven away – the vicious spiral of decline continues.
It strikes me that Arriva's problem is that there is very minimal local management and that they are often overruled by HQ. I doubt they'll ever be able to shake off their malaise without putting a bit more effort into empowered local management.
Some of the Watford changes are absolutely baffling
Withdrawing long standing numbers such as the 10 just to cause more confusion
Not surprised that the 508 is going , it had absolutely awful reliability due to all the traffic spots that it went through
Assuming the 322 will run via Hempstead road and Kings Langley
Also bringing the 320 number back for a school service is another weird choice
Withdrawing long standing numbers such as the 10 just to cause more confusion
Not surprised that the 508 is going , it had absolutely awful reliability due to all the traffic spots that it went through
Assuming the 322 will run via Hempstead road and Kings Langley
Also bringing the 320 number back for a school service is another weird choice
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
That's interesting as historically, courtesy of Timetable World, it was only ever hourly
I'm not sure about being overruled by HQ, but it's true they have a very minimal structure - if memory serves me correctly, there are only two people at "Managing Director" level for the entire operation, the southern one doing everything south of Midlands (i.e. Midlands, Shires, Southern Counties) and the other doing the northern half (North West, Wales, North East). Other layers of management are similarly thinned out - local rumour has it that the former Southern Counties/M&D head office at Maidstone is less than half full.
Much seems to rely on "business decisions", which isn't a bad thing for an organization in the business of making money, but it does seem as though the current senior team (few of whom have a bus background, UK or otherwise) are detached from their local areas, and that what works in Leicester doesn't necessarily work in Newcastle, and what works in Bangor doesn't necessarily work in Maidstone - not just because of the local population makeup, but local authorities, employment centres, etc. Arriva have long had a reputation here for not losing contracts by mistake, but deliberately bidding a price they won't win on, and have recently been riling local authorities with their demands for additional support (e.g. for evening and Sunday services), and I can't imagine pulling out of the various low-emission/electric bus deals will have gained them many friends in the affected authorities.
Recent timetable changes in Kent have seen some fairly bizarre changes, such as frequency blocks being reduced in size in favour of one or two minute differences, and from some friendly drivers, some of the duty decisions seem to be equally bizarre - "less than Optibus" being a new nickname for the scheduling system (I think they previously used Trapeze). This is of course before we get to the barely functioning website, a social media/customer services team whose job appears to be anything other than serve the customer, and the accounting system that @M803UYA has discussed any times before, working journey-by-journey, rather than looking at the services as a whole.
Just about the only thing that can be said for certain at the moment is that I Squared is in exclusive talks with DB to buy the whole company: company-by-company, or worse still, depot-by-depot sales, seem highly unlikely until I Squared make a decision to go ahead or pull out. This would match how Arriva have disposed of other European businesses: strictly country-by-country sales. Whether a new owner then starts immediately selling parts of the business to new buyers, as has been rumoured in at least two different variants for Southern Counties, remains to be seen! (But seems somewhat unlikely, not least the subsequent purchasers would need access to the financial information, and I doubt Arriva would be willing to let that go to a third party at this stage... and how can you sell something you don't yet own!).
Diamond would make more sense as it bolts on to their Diamond East Midlands operations.
gka472l
Member
There will be a fair few fleet movements coming up which involve moving older vehicles out of the Merseyside fleet (15 year rule) and replaced by newer ones from other Arriva fleets in exchange. Known so far are a number of 58 plate Pulsars heading to Yorkshire & Midlands, and some 58 plate E400's heading to Leicester......
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
All feels a bit like First c.2010
Statto
Established Member
Source from the Merseyside Dennis Dart Forum
15 Pulsars will be moving out of St Helens in the next few weeks as they reach the 15 year age limit.
They will be replaced with 15 newer examples from Wakefield (10) and Castleford (5)
3 Enviros from Bootle 4411/4419/4420 will be swapped with 3x 64 plates from Leicester Thurmaston. 3 Pulsars will also be swapped with Pulsars from Derby.
1 Pulsar from Birkenhead swapped to Dewsbury
Further buses will be swapped once replacements are sourced
In addition, when Bolton closes 23/9 buses will be transferred to Wythenshawe and Runcorn once run in begins.
15 Pulsars will be moving out of St Helens in the next few weeks as they reach the 15 year age limit.
They will be replaced with 15 newer examples from Wakefield (10) and Castleford (5)
3 Enviros from Bootle 4411/4419/4420 will be swapped with 3x 64 plates from Leicester Thurmaston. 3 Pulsars will also be swapped with Pulsars from Derby.
1 Pulsar from Birkenhead swapped to Dewsbury
Further buses will be swapped once replacements are sourced
In addition, when Bolton closes 23/9 buses will be transferred to Wythenshawe and Runcorn once run in begins.
gka472l
Member
Further to that, and posted by 'CUL73V' on the same forum...
The following are leaving the fleet.
2670 CX58EUM, Midlands.
2689 CX58EWB, Yorkshire.
2691 CX58EWD, Yorkshire.
2692 CX58EWE, Yorkshire.
2693 CX58EWF, Yorkshire.
2694 CX58EWG, Yorkshire.
2695 CX58EWH, Yorkshire.
2696 CX58EWJ, Yorkshire.
2697 CX58EWK, Yorkshire.
2900 CX58EWO, Yorkshire.
2901 CX58EWP, Yorkshire.
2902 CX58EWR, Yorkshire.
2903 CX58EWS, Yorkshire.
2904 CX58EWT, Yorkshire.
2917 CX58EXJ, Midlands.
2918 CX58EXK, Midlands.
2919 CX58EXL, Yorkshire.
2670/2917/2918 are currently allocated to Bootle
2689/91-97/900-4 currently allocated to St Helens
2919 currently allocated to Birkenhead
HTH
MasterSpenny
Member
Seen on Bus Lists on the Web (buslistsontheweb.co.uk) that Enviro 400 FCEV 4904 has got a 73 plate instead of a 23 plate - SK73CVN.
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